Turn Discussion Thread

[DaveShack]

Yeah, not having overflow in Civ3 spawned a cottage industry of utilities that could remind you to micromanage. Enabling overflow was one of the major functional changes in Civ4.

 

[Trystero]

Yeah, not having overflow in Civ3 spawned a cottage industry of utilities that could remind you to micromanage. Enabling overflow was one of the major functional changes in Civ4.

That's actually why I checked the strategy articles right after posting. I never played Civ prior to 4, but it almost immediately occurred to me that not have overflow would result in a ton of related micromanagement articles. Ah well, one reason I signed up: to learn new things (and expose my ignorance )

We've played another turn. I'll let AlphaShard write it up, since I think he played it. We are 1 turn from finishing BW and the 2nd WB. Returning to my earlier question, can we research Pottery next while we resolve the AH issue? I'll admit in light of the new analysis by champinoman that the beaker savings by teching AH before Writing is reduced, I'm now leaning toward delaying it at least until we get to the other landmass, where we might need it to use resources. (Previously, the reduction in the cost to Writing was it's major selling point to me). Regardless of whether we self-research it or trade for it, I think the immediate issue is whether it has to be done before Writing, or whether those beakers were better used elsewhere. If the beaker savings is minimal, I'm less sold on it's immediate advantage.

 

[azzaman333]

I'm still strongly in the no-AH camp. How are we possibly going to need it before we can trade for it with Alphabet?

No AH --> sooner techs --> sooner Alphabet -->trading for AH.

The only possibility AH might be worthwhile is if there is a chance we will not be able to trade for AH by when we need it. This seems borderline impossible.

We need to know where the horses are.

And we have no idea how far away the other teams are, and whether they'll even want to trade with us. It's a massive risk not teching AH, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[BLubmuz]

We need to know where the horses are.

And we have no idea how far away the other teams are, and whether they'll even want to trade with us. It's a massive risk not teching AH, as far as I'm concerned.

I agree.
If you add that it also speeds up writing, i say let's go for it. And probably even before pottery, since our workers are busy and probably they can't start building cottages by the time pottery is in.

 

[AlphaShard]

I think Azzaman that there will be tech trading if we have it on, there is no gaurentee which team will trade but I am sure someone will. As for AH I'm waiting to see if we have copper or not.

 

[azzaman333]

I think Azzaman that there will be tech trading if we have it on, there is no gaurentee which team will trade but I am sure someone will. As for AH I'm waiting to see if we have copper or not.

Depends when we meet other teams, and who they may have already met.

We have no idea how big the map is, so it could be 5 turns of exploration, 10 turns, 20 or 50 before we find anyone.

If we don't research AH before Writing, it wastes beakers. Horses are a key strategic resource. We will need pastures. And there aren't any techs other than Writing and Sailing which we have a real need for at the moment.

 

[hell_hound]

I agree with azzaman AH is a fairly critical tech and ideally we want it sooner rather than later...

 

[pindicator]

Just re-stating my preference for AH and then I'll stop . Unless the map makers are being cruel to amazon's team, there are going to be pastures in this game. Future cities are going to need them, and knowing where the horses are as we explore will be a big strategic advantage. I think it's worth delaying writing 2 or 3 turns rather than the big risk that 1) we'll meet another team in the near future; 2) they will actually want to trade us that tech.

I don't think we need to put it ahead of Pottery, but I would like to see it before writing.

I also am not sure and I don't think a lot of other people are sure what our tech plans are after Writing & Sailing. I've heard Alphabet, Math, and I'm starting to see some people showing that they'd like us to bee-line Monarchy next. Thoughts?

 

[Irgy]

I vote we research AH if there's no copper on our island, and don't otherwise.

What's the next worker move? My inclination would be to connect a gold with a road, and it's slightly quicker to connect the one we're on now. Actually maybe we should have built a road from the other gold, we're not going to be working the second gold for a while yet anyway.

Or were we planning to chop out the exploring work boat (which I'm assuming is the next build)?

 

[dima42]

I like workboat chopping more than connecting gold. I think this was in the original analysis.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Depends when we meet other teams, and who they may have already met.

I'm sure we'll meet other teams who we'll be able to trade with. If not, then we'll have problems a lot worse than missing Animal Husbandry for a few turns. If we don't find a partner, we won't have a chance to win the game. Simple as that.

But I'm sure it won't be a problem. Other teams are inclined to cooperate early on for their own benefit too. Besides, we're probably getting out one of the earliest (if not the earliest) exploring Work Boat in the game.

We have no idea how big the map is, so it could be 5 turns of exploration, 10 turns, 20 or 50 before we find anyone.

The map is standard size. With 6 presumably evenly spaced teams, this gives an upper limit on how far anyone can possibly be from us.

If we don't research AH before Writing, it wastes beakers. Horses are a key strategic resource. We will need pastures. And there aren't any techs other than Writing and Sailing which we have a real need for at the moment.

Monarchy? Maths? Civil Service?

Just re-stating my preference for AH and then I'll stop . Unless the map makers are being cruel to amazon's team, there are going to be pastures in this game. Future cities are going to need them, and knowing where the horses are as we explore will be a big strategic advantage. I think it's worth delaying writing 2 or 3 turns rather than the big risk that 1) we'll meet another team in the near future; 2) they will actually want to trade us that tech.

As I said above, (1) there is a physical limit on how far any team can possibly be from us, and it is not that far; (2) if we can't find someone willing to trade with us, then we're dead anyway. But I think that's unlikely.

I also am not sure and I don't think a lot of other people are sure what our tech plans are after Writing & Sailing. I've heard Alphabet, Math, and I'm starting to see some people showing that they'd like us to bee-line Monarchy next. Thoughts?

Monarchy, Maths and Civil Service seem to be our priorities to me, in no particular order at present. Potentially Alphabet too, once we meet someone (and assuming they're not going for it and willing to trade it).

 

[Lord Parkin]

What's the next worker move? My inclination would be to connect a gold with a road, and it's slightly quicker to connect the one we're on now.

I had the same thought until I realised that we won't need the happiness for quite a while. We're going to be growing to size 4 and immediately building a Settler. We're not going to need ANY extra happiness until after turn 40. As a result, it's much better to start chopping forests instead.

Actually maybe we should have built a road from the other gold, we're not going to be working the second gold for a while yet anyway.

No, either way the prebuilt road would be from the "other" Gold. We did it the right way, because this way the prebuilt road is in a position where, if we finish it, we can shave a turn off the founding of our second city.

Or were we planning to chop out the exploring work boat (which I'm assuming is the next build)?

That's it.

I like workboat chopping more than connecting gold. I think this was in the original analysis.

Yep, indeed.

 

[Irgy]

No, either way the prebuilt road would be from the "other" Gold.

I get that, but you slightly misinterpreted me. I was suggesting that maybe we should have built a road on the southern gold square before we left it. Rather than, for instance, building a road now from this one. Building a road at least on the gold itself will save us a worker turn in the long run, but I can understand that it might not be worth delaying the chopping for two turns.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I get that, but you slightly misinterpreted me. I was suggesting that maybe we should have built a road on the southern gold square before we left it. Rather than, for instance, building a road now from this one. Building a road at least on the gold itself will save us a worker turn in the long run, but I can understand that it might not be worth delaying the chopping for two turns.

Since we don't need the Gold until well after turn 40, I think we probably did the right thing by not delaying our chops by 2-3 turns to build the road earlier.

 

[azzaman333]

I'm sure we'll meet other teams who we'll be able to trade with. If not, then we'll have problems a lot worse than missing Animal Husbandry for a few turns. If we don't find a partner, we won't have a chance to win the game. Simple as that.

But I'm sure it won't be a problem. Other teams are inclined to cooperate early on for their own benefit too. Besides, we're probably getting out one of the earliest (if not the earliest) exploring Work Boat in the game.

Why waste our trades on getting AH though?

The map is standard size. With 6 presumably evenly spaced teams, this gives an upper limit on how far anyone can possibly be from us.

"Standard sized map" actually doesn't mean anything as far as actual map size is concerned. Different maps have different dimensions. All we know is that it's custom built.

Monarchy? Maths? Civil Service?

Monarchy isn't critically important yet, Maths is a waste when we have as much food to whip as we do, Civil Service comes after Monarchy.

As I said above, (1) there is a physical limit on how far any team can possibly be from us, and it is not that far; (2) if we can't find someone willing to trade with us, then we're dead anyway. But I think that's unlikely.

Keep in mind that those we meet first may not want to trade, and remember how long it took for Saturn and SANCTA to meet in the previous game.

Monarchy, Maths and Civil Service seem to be our priorities to me, in no particular order at present. Potentially Alphabet too, once we meet someone (and assuming they're not going for it and willing to trade it).

After AH, Writing, Sailing, the next best path is Monarchy via Meditation unless Hinduism isn't founded and Buddhism is.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Why waste our trades on getting AH though?

You seem to forget it takes time to research AH, just like any other tech. Let me put it to you this way: not researching AH will put us closer to some other tech that we could trade.

"Standard sized map" actually doesn't mean anything as far as actual map size is concerned. Different maps have different dimensions. All we know is that it's custom built.

Yeah, but it's not going to be crazily big. I'd doubt there's more than about 20 tiles between starts.

Monarchy isn't critically important yet, Maths is a waste when we have as much food to whip as we do, Civil Service comes after Monarchy.

It doesn't have to come after Monarchy. I almost always get CS through COL and not through Feudalism.

Keep in mind that those we meet first may not want to trade, and remember how long it took for Saturn and SANCTA to meet in the previous game.

We're not going to make that mistake again. This time, we're sending out an exploring Work Boat (two in fact) early on. We can't miss meeting someone, unless the mapmakers put ice blocking us in.

After AH, Writing, Sailing, the next best path is Monarchy via Meditation unless Hinduism isn't founded and Buddhism is.

I'd put in a bid for Maths before that path, but otherwise it sounds good.

 

[champinoman]

Not jumping into the discussion but this comment made me think:

Yeah, but it's not going to be crazily big. I'd doubt there's more than about 20 tiles between starts.

I looked at a standard map size and if the map is designed how we are speculating with us spread apart evenly then I would make an estimate of us being anywhere between 17-23 tiles away from each other at the start. Add to this a central island blocking a direct diagonal path to another team and that increases.

Just a thought I had.

 

[grant2004]

The most important thing for how long it will take us to find another team is the shape of the coastline. If we're stumbling around a chain of little islands it will take significantly longer to find someone than if we have a smooth clean coastline to travel down. We can't know how jagged the map might be until we start exploring.

After writing, I'm not sure where we should go, it seems a waste to not get math if we're going to be chopping forests, but I wonder what would happen if we did the monarchy beeline. It seems like a lot of players de-emphasize religion in MP games. We might have a chance to grab an early religion for easy happiness if the other teams have focused on techs to develop their land and resources like we have. It's also possible that we might be able to get the oracle, which is one of my favorite wonders, but I don't know how well that fits into our plans.

 

[Lord Parkin]

If the early religions (or at least one of them) haven't gone by the time we get Writing, then sure, I'm all up for researching down the Monarchy line straight away. Not sure that Oracle is a good idea though. Our research is pretty good, which means the free tech is less powerful. Also, we're not Industrious and don't have Marble, so would be building at minimum efficiency.

 

[grant2004]

Good research gives us a possibility to set up the oracle to grab an expensive tech. Metal Casting and CoL are what I normally get, I've heard of CS as a possibility. I doubt anyone else has marble, so I wouldn't consider that a huge detriment.

Of course, our strategy seems to be tending more towards early expansion. If an oracle build would slow down an important settler, or something it wouldn't be as worth it. We'll have to look at this again when we get closer to that point.