AlphaShard
Emperor
I have a ton of dead units that beg to differ with you on that. Plus Spearman are the only defense against Horse and Chariots.
Turn Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Lord Parkin
- Start date
azzaman333
meh
AI stupidity doesn't make Archers good in MP. There's nothing they do the alternatives can't.
AlphaShard
Emperor
Mounted Units do not get any defensive bonus so that's what Archers and Spearman can do that they can't.
Axe and Swords do not get City defense or First Strike so that's what Archers can do that they can't.
Axe and Swords do not get City defense or First Strike so that's what Archers can do that they can't.
azzaman333
meh
Axes and Swords don't need City Defense or First Strike to be as good as Archers at defending. Plus, Archers can't counter attack.
Defense in multiplayer is more about counter-offense than actually defending. You need to be able to wipe out the attackers not just survive the attack or you'll just end up pillaged and choked. So archers aren't as good as all that because you can't wipe out any enemy stacks with them.
That said, chariots alone aren't that crash hot for being the only unit we ever build either. Chariots and metal units would be ok, chariots and archers would do in a pinch. What we really want though is catapults.
That said, chariots alone aren't that crash hot for being the only unit we ever build either. Chariots and metal units would be ok, chariots and archers would do in a pinch. What we really want though is catapults.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Monarchy before math with all those forests to chop?
And before currency?
Never heard that.
Hunting will give a bonus on AH, which will give a bonus on writing. What do we plan to trade for hunting? Writing perhaps?
Since we have no copper, can we consider to research IW somewhere soon? I'm nervous without metals. Just a bit less for being on an island, but not much.
And before currency?
Never heard that.
Hunting will give a bonus on AH, which will give a bonus on writing. What do we plan to trade for hunting? Writing perhaps?
Since we have no copper, can we consider to research IW somewhere soon? I'm nervous without metals. Just a bit less for being on an island, but not much.
champinoman
Warlord
We are holding out on Hunting to allow us to build cheap Warriors when we get HR. This is worth more than the bonus we get when researching AH.
Its quite a while until anyone even has the opportunity to attack us. And an attack will not come prematurely in this type of game. We have time to worry about our shortage of copper.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
There's a (big) hole in your reasoning. We do not need to delay hunting to continue build warriors if our only metal is gold.
Maybe this strategy was thought when we were sure to have copper, now it probably needs to be revised.
For my nerves, i think you can be right. Still, i'm nervous.
AlphaShard
Emperor
I agree having Cats will decimate a stack but it's going to be awhile before we get to those.
The point I was getting at is that an Axe vs Axe is at best 50% unless you have the bonus +25 which you'll also have to have the +10% as well. An Archer has a much better chance defending agiainst an axe or sword within it's city with City Defense or First Strike.
Course Prats will absolutly rape Archers but were not Roman and neither is anyone else.
Spearmen are best against Horse archers and shouldn't be ignored since Amazon is out there with their Persian Immortals.
Frankly I have a hard time getting Chariots to win at anything and though I think it was either MLS or TMIT that talked about throwing 70 chariots at some riflman and the last one won. I think that makes the point on how crappy the unit is if you need 70 to just get through. Any unit can get overwhelmed if you throw enough units at it. I'm talking about a One on One basis.
I think I've come to the conclusion that I am going to enjoy the one unit per tile mechanic afterall.
The point I was getting at is that an Axe vs Axe is at best 50% unless you have the bonus +25 which you'll also have to have the +10% as well. An Archer has a much better chance defending agiainst an axe or sword within it's city with City Defense or First Strike.
Course Prats will absolutly rape Archers but were not Roman and neither is anyone else.
Spearmen are best against Horse archers and shouldn't be ignored since Amazon is out there with their Persian Immortals.
Frankly I have a hard time getting Chariots to win at anything and though I think it was either MLS or TMIT that talked about throwing 70 chariots at some riflman and the last one won. I think that makes the point on how crappy the unit is if you need 70 to just get through. Any unit can get overwhelmed if you throw enough units at it. I'm talking about a One on One basis.
I think I've come to the conclusion that I am going to enjoy the one unit per tile mechanic afterall.
Trystero
Deity
It's hard to evaluate the various options for what type of military units to build given how little information about the map we currently have. I'm therefore advocating that our first priority should be exploration. Even if the home island doesn't have copper (or horses), the adjacent island might. It would be much easier to evaluate our future tech path if we knew what resources were available.
My "vote" on the AH issue: I don't think we need horses until after we leave the home island, and my feeling is that there aren't any here anyway. That said, I think we'll need AH by the time we try to settle on the adjacent island. Given champinoman's analysis, the benefits of researching AH before Writing are minimal so I would rather prioritize Writing > Sailing at this point, and then research AH when are ready to move a settler to the next island.
So I would rather delay AH, but I won't object if most people want to research it now. I think exploring the neighboring island (i.e. Sailing) should be our number 1 priority.
I am opposed, however, to backtracking to Hunting > Archery. Unless the Persians show up soon (and we have metal) I see no immediate need for spears, and we have no camp-able resources. And, as others have said, Archers would be a military unit of last resort.
My "vote" on the AH issue: I don't think we need horses until after we leave the home island, and my feeling is that there aren't any here anyway. That said, I think we'll need AH by the time we try to settle on the adjacent island. Given champinoman's analysis, the benefits of researching AH before Writing are minimal so I would rather prioritize Writing > Sailing at this point, and then research AH when are ready to move a settler to the next island.
So I would rather delay AH, but I won't object if most people want to research it now. I think exploring the neighboring island (i.e. Sailing) should be our number 1 priority.
I am opposed, however, to backtracking to Hunting > Archery. Unless the Persians show up soon (and we have metal) I see no immediate need for spears, and we have no camp-able resources. And, as others have said, Archers would be a military unit of last resort.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
Yeah, zero need for Archers unless it's a last stand and you have no hope regardless. You need offensive units to take the fight to the other team. So let's skip Hunting/Archery for the forseeable future.
I still vote for waiting on AH and researching Pottery -> Writing. But that's just me.
I still vote for waiting on AH and researching Pottery -> Writing. But that's just me.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Surely a library, a cheap library, will make up for not having the research benefits of the pre-requisite techs. Provided we built it soon. Otherwise...
I see hunting only like a tech to speed up AH, no more. Archers? the last stand.
If i haven't it in trade (only in AW games) i research it after Machinery. Guess why?
I thought so too originally, but basically the conclusion was we save more beakers from the pre-requisite tech than from the library, because AH doesn't hold up the library by as many turns as it takes to research AH.
Basically, we don't need writing nor sailing any sooner than we can get them while getting AH first. I don't expect we'll need Alphabet or Maths any sooner than we can get them while getting AH first, and I don't think we can get all the way to Monarchy or Currency before we're going to miss being able to spot horses.
I think we're reaching the point on AH where a poll is the only way to resolve it. It's way too evenly split to guess if one has more support than the other.
caveman1917
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2009
- Messages
- 110
I agree. There seem to about the same number of people for AH-Writing as for skipping AH until needed with exploration. And if i remember correctly, also a voice for hunting-ah-writing, which should be included for completeness sake if people want to go this tech path.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
Okay, I've set up a poll for the decision. Everyone go vote.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9158189#post9158189
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9158189#post9158189
azzaman333
meh
Skipping AH, when we have no copper, is insane.
AlphaShard
Emperor
If one of the other teams switched to Slavery would we see the annocement of it? Or only when we make contact?
Skipping IW when we have no copper is insane.
Skipping IW when we have no copper is insane.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
Only once we've made contact.
About intercontinental trade routes. We will have trade over that ocean tile because our culture is on it. I happened to have a single player game with the same circumstances, and I was able to trade across the ocean before astronomy.
