Turn Discussion Thread

[Irgy]

I haven't played this out, but not building the road on the gold hill W of Sirius means the gold mine in Canopus would be completed about 2 turns earlier (turn 45), correct? He'd still have to build the road (1 turn?). That means the gold in Canopus would be hooked up no sooner than turn 46. In the plan I laid out Sirius would grow to pop 5 on turn 43, so we'd have happiness issues for a few turns, unless we ran a scientist instead of working the Forested Silk, or moved the warrior to Sirius. I decided to work the Silk to get to pop 6 as soon as possible, but perhaps that's sub-optimal. As I said, the micro I laid out wasn't necessariy the best plan possible, just a starting point for discussions.

The current plan is to build a warrior for the sake of an overflow hammer to save a turn on the library. The upshot of that is that we don't need the gold connected until 6 population, which should be plenty of time even working the silk. I think the silk is a good idea, as it will double our growth rate, giving an extra turn of the second scientist for each turn of the first scientist we miss. That works out as just plain better than working a scientist.

Ah I though Mono was on the path as well. No one has gotten it yet though so it is still up in the air.

Having had a better look at the tech tree, Mono is actually a huge detour. It requires Masonry, which we have no need for, and Monotheism is itself twice as expensive as the alternative Priesthood. In fact, even if we get Monotheism, Priesthood is so cheap that you save almost as many beakers of Monarchy from the pre-requisite bonus of Priesthood as Priesthood actually costs in the first place, so you might as well research it anyway. So Monotheism isn't really on the path to Monarchy at all.

So, we should only go after Monotheism if we either genuinely want and genuinely expect to get the religeon, or we really want to use OR (which we won't be even able to use unless we get a religeon anyway).

Between AH, Writing and Sailing I really don't expect to get any of the early 3 religeons.

 

[Trystero]

The current plan is to build a warrior for the sake of an overflow hammer to save a turn on the library. The upshot of that is that we don't need the gold connected until 6 population, which should be plenty of time even working the silk. I think the silk is a good idea, as it will double our growth rate, giving an extra turn of the second scientist for each turn of the first scientist we miss. That works out as just plain better than working a scientist.

Crud. The warrior was so early in the plan, I forgot I worked that into the proposal. I haven't been on top of things today. I guess mining the gold in Canopus makes more sense than hooking it up near Sirius right now. And yes, without doing the math, my thinking was get to a size where we could run 2 scientists faster. On the other hand, we might want to run one Scientist and work the Silk tile at size 6 to get Settlers or Workers out faster. I'd have to playtest to see which is more desirable.

Between AH, Writing and Sailing I really don't expect to get any of the early 3 religeons.

Agreed. It's possible we could get one if we tried, since human players don't emphasize religion to the same extent as the AI, but if one was going to go first it would probably be from Meditation.

 

[pindicator]

Crud. The warrior was so early in the plan, I forgot I worked that into the proposal. I haven't been on top of things today. I guess mining the gold in Canopus makes more sense than hooking it up near Sirius right now.

Might we be able to have our cake and eat it too? the gold mine near canopus is on a river; once we get sailing, won't it hook up automatically?

Regarding religion... how hard would it be to have our (2nd? 3rd?) great scientist pop Philosophy ? I think that dovetails nicely with our current plans: it works with our cheap libraries, it coincides well with the cheapest techpath to Monarchy (Meditation being a pre-req for Philosophy) and wanting Math.

But I think the best plan for religion is to take it if its available... planning for it and relying on it would put us in a bind if someone beat us in the end.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I take it by the discussion that someone got Hinduism? Or has that not gone yet? I haven't been following particularly closely the last couple of days.

 

[Trystero]

Might we be able to have our cake and eat it too? the gold mine near canopus is on a river; once we get sailing, won't it hook up automatically?

You're right! I hadn't noticed that before. Nice catch, pindicator. That definitely favors improving the gold mine in Canopus first. I playtested that variation: I started from turn 39 of my last test game:

39: Lord Parkin moves to Canopus Gold Hill (3 turns)
40: No Action
41: Library complete, start WB
42: Lord Parkin mines Gold Hill 1SE of Canopus.
43:
*Sailing complete, start Mysticism
*Sirius grows to pop 5, works 2 Fish, 2 Gold Hills, Forested Silk tiles.
*Borders of Canopus expand
*Fog-busting Warrior (Ceres) moves to Sirius (3 turns)
44:
*Canopus grows to pop 2.
*Whip WB in Canopus > overflow hammers to Granary
45:
*WB done in Sirius start Galley
*WB done in Canopus, moves to Fish
*Mysticism complete, start Meditation.
46:
*WB improves Fish tile in Canopus, Canopus switches to working that tile.
*Gold mine done in Canopus and connected by river. Lord Parkin moves 1N to chop.
47:
*Finish Meditation, Start Priesthood.
*Lord Parkin starts chop.
48: No Action
49:
*Priesthood done, start Monarchy
*Canopus grows to pop 2, works Fish and Gold Hill
*Chop done. Lord Parkin free to move
50: No Action? (Worker?)
51:
*Granary done in Canopus, start next build.
*Galley done in Sirius, start Settler?
*Sirius grow to pop 6, runs Scientist + Silk (Settler in 8 turns).
(Monarchy will be done on turn 57)

Building the gold mine in Canopus without hooking up the gold in Sirius gets us Monarchy 1 turn sooner than in the scenario where we build the road on the gold in Sirius first. Regardless of whether we run one or two Scientists after Sirius reaches size 6, Monarchy is researched on turn 57, so I would work the Silk + 1 Scientist to get the Settler out faster.

I haven't checked running a Scientist in Sirius from the time we reach size 5. I might try that next.

EDIT: I checked running the Scientist from the time we reach size 5. It doesn't change the timing of researching Monarchy or building the Galley in Sirius. However when the Galley is done, Sirius is still 7 turns from size 6, and the food bar is half full. Building a Settler at that point would take 10 turns (rather than the 8 above).

 

[Trystero]

I take it by the discussion that someone got Hinduism? Or has that not gone yet? I haven't been following particularly closely the last couple of days.

No, not yet. We are just discussing beelining Monarchy (through Meditation) after Sailing, and whether we are likely to pick up a religion that way as a bonus.

Edit: Also, I haven't been following the main forum much, but I think (by looking at the server site) MAVERICKS skipped the last turn. I'm not sure if that means anything.

 

[Irgy]

Might we be able to have our cake and eat it too? the gold mine near canopus is on a river; once we get sailing, won't it hook up automatically?

Does this really work? The river doesn't connect to any cities, just the ocean. I never realised that was good enough. It sounds like Trystero has confirmed this in his test game though?

I take it by the discussion that someone got Hinduism? Or has that not gone yet? I haven't been following particularly closely the last couple of days.

Not that I've seen. Someone should definately mention that in the turn tracking thread if it happens on a turn they play. Same for any wonders built.

 

[azzaman333]

I don't know that getting a religion is a sure thing in the plan I presented, since Buddhism is the only one that would be an option. It does, however, lie on the shortest path to Monarchy, so someone else with similar ideas might get there first.

We can replace Meditation with Polytheism if Buddhism has been founded and Hinduism hasn't, but the religion wouldn't be the reason we're going through that path. Just a nice bonus.

 

[azzaman333]

Does this really work? The river doesn't connect to any cities, just the ocean. I never realised that was good enough. It sounds like Trystero has confirmed this in his test game though?

It's good enough if we have Sailing.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Does this really work? The river doesn't connect to any cities, just the ocean. I never realised that was good enough. It sounds like Trystero has confirmed this in his test game though?

If you have Sailing, and a river emptying into a coast tile inside your territory, then the game treats the river-coast connection like a completed trade network. So yes, the Gold should be hooked up by this method.

 

[AlphaShard]

We can replace Meditation with Polytheism if Buddhism has been founded and Hinduism hasn't, but the religion wouldn't be the reason we're going through that path. Just a nice bonus.

That's really all I was saying at this point, since were heading toward Monarchy soon. Honestly if the Indians or Mayans were thinking of Monarchy they should have gotten the Poly/Meditation already. I think I'd be embarresed if I was them and they lost out on early religons.

I mean why else choose Ghandi? I was geniunly surprised to see that actually.

I've checked the Event Log each time and I've never seen any wonders or Religons listed yet. It still charts all our techs we've gotten though.

 

[azzaman333]

For the traits and fast workers. Really, early religion isn't all that flash.

 

[GoSkins]

For the traits and fast workers. Really, early religion isn't all that flash.

I've had games where an early religion was very powerful...plus apostolic palace...of course that was on single player.

For our situation, I think that early religion could be a nice bonus on the way to Monarchy, but we shouldnt go out of the way for it.

 

[pindicator]

Nice work, trsytero. I'm a little concerned about the lack of workers. For instance, once Canopus hits size 2, what are the thoughts of swapping to a worker? Or even doing so right after whipping the WB, using the overflow from the whip? Especially once we hit monarchy and the happiness cap becomes less of an issue, we are going to want to be growing onto improved tiles.

 

[champinoman]

Nice reading through all the posts after being away for 1 day. That'll teach me!

The Gold on the river is a nice pickup that will save us a few turns.

A query I have from the plan listed above is that it mentions moving the Warrior back to Sirius once Canopus pops its border. Is the island fully fog busted? The tile I am referring to is 2N 2E of current warrior spawn bust location. I think we need our current fogbusting warrior to stay in proximity of that tile until Canopus pops for the 2nd time.

 

[Trystero]

For our situation, I think that early religion could be a nice bonus on the way to Monarchy, but we shouldnt go out of the way for it.

Yes, exactly. Religion isn't the goal here, Monarchy is.

That said, I think we should also have some discussion of alternate post-Sailing research paths. I really think Monarchy is the way to go, as I've argued before: we really want to grow Sirius to take advantage of the Financial trait and run Scientists, but we should look at all options.

Nice work, trsytero. I'm a little concerned about the lack of workers. For instance, once Canopus hits size 2, what are the thoughts of swapping to a worker? Or even doing so right after whipping the WB, using the overflow from the whip? Especially once we hit monarchy and the happiness cap becomes less of an issue, we are going to want to be growing onto improved tiles.

I should say that the builds in Canopus in my test game were really placeholders. Other approaches might make more sense. I think WB first makes sense because we need to improve the Fish ASAP. I picked Granary as the second build, since we'll need it if we are going to whip Canopus for production (which is likely), and I wanted to grow Canopus to size 2 to work the Gold mine. If we don't work that Gold, Monarchy will take 1 turn longer to research, so we need to grow back to 2 ASAP after whipping.

I think Sirius would be the best place to build Workers/Settlers, since it is already near it's happy cap. But we should play around with builds and see what works best when we have 2 cities up and running.

EDIT: After giving this some thought, perhaps it is better to avoid whipping the WB. We can't whip until size 2, which was my stated goal to work the Gold, so if we don't whip then we can work the Gold mine sooner. That could speed up our research, and the worker chop could go into the WB. I'll need to play test and see what effect this would have on our Monarchy research.

A query I have from the plan listed above is that it mentions moving the Warrior back to Sirius once Canopus pops its border. Is the island fully fog busted? The tile I am referring to is 2N 2E of current warrior spawn bust location. I think we need our current fogbusting warrior to stay in proximity of that tile until Canopus pops for the 2nd time.

Perhaps I misunderstood when the island would be completely fog-busted by culture. I thought it was when Canopus popped to it's BFC. The warrior moves to garrison Sirius so that the 2nd warrior can leave on the galley. If he has to stay on the Silk tile for fog-busting, we can insert a Warrior in the build queue in Sirius prior to that last Settler. I think the warrior would take more than 2 turns to build at that point, so we wouldn't grow past the happy cap in that time.

 

[Trystero]

Does this really work? The river doesn't connect to any cities, just the ocean. I never realised that was good enough. It sounds like Trystero has confirmed this in his test game though?

If you have Sailing, and a river emptying into a coast tile inside your territory, then the game treats the river-coast connection like a completed trade network. So yes, the Gold should be hooked up by this method.

I can confirm that this really does work in the test game.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Yes, exactly. Religion isn't the goal here, Monarchy is.

That said, I think we should also have some discussion of alternate post-Sailing research paths. I really think Monarchy is the way to go, as I've argued before: we really want to grow Sirius to take advantage of the Financial trait and run Scientists, but we should look at all options.

Might it even be worth considering going Mysticism-Meditation prior to Sailing? Depends how much we value the religion I guess. It's by no means vital, but it's certainly a nice little bonus to have.

The other main options include Mathematics and Alphabet (assuming we've met someone). Iron Working could also be a possibility, if we don't find Horses.

EDIT: After giving this some thought, perhaps it is better to avoid whipping the WB. We can't whip until size 2, which was my stated goal to work the Gold, so if we don't whip then we can work the Gold mine sooner. That could speed up our research, and the worker chop could go into the WB. I'll need to play test and see what effect this would have on our Monarchy research.

That's my thinking. Far better to build a Worker in the 2nd city at size 2 (working two Fish) or size 3 (working 2 Fish + the river-Gold), rather than building it at size 1. I'm dubious about the benefits of whipping our second city at size 3 or below, because it has 3 awesome tiles.

 

[Trystero]

Might it even be worth considering going Mysticism-Meditation prior to Sailing? Depends how much we value the religion I guess. It's by no means vital, but it's certainly a nice little bonus to have.

That's an interesting idea. In the test game, there are 2 turns after Sailing is complete where Sirius is building the 2nd exploring WB, before it starts the galley. If we need the fog-busting warrior to stay put, we would have to build another warrior (for exploration) anyway after the galley. I estimate each of those techs will take about 2 turns to research at that point. That means that if we put the warrior before the galley, we could tech Mysticism + Meditation before we'd need Sailing, and that wouldn't delay the exploring warrior leaving on the galley. I will try that in my test game and let you know if that actually works.

That's my thinking. Far better to build a Worker in the 2nd city at size 2 (working two Fish) or size 3 (working 2 Fish + the river-Gold), rather than building it at size 1. I'm dubious about the benefits of whipping our second city at size 3 or below, because it has 3 awesome tiles.

We'd need another WB to work both Fish, and I wouldn't want to do that before Monarchy, so we maximize our tech rate by working Fish + Gold. But perhaps the first to builds in Canopus should be WBs?

 

[pindicator]

That's an interesting idea. In the test game, there are 2 turns after Sailing is complete where Sirius is building the 2nd exploring WB, before it starts the galley. If we need the fog-busting warrior to stay put, we would have to build another warrior (for exploration) anyway after the galley. I estimate each of those techs will take about 2 turns to research at that point. That means that if we put the warrior before the galley, we could tech Mysticism + Meditation before we'd need Sailing, and that wouldn't delay the exploring warrior leaving on the galley. I will try that in my test game and let you know if that actually works.

If so, I think we should go for it.

We'd need another WB to work both Fish, and I wouldn't want to do that before Monarchy, so we maximize our tech rate by working Fish + Gold. But perhaps the first to builds in Canopus should be WBs?

Off the top of my head, what about...

Size 1, work flood plain and start WB
At size 2, work gold min + flood plain
WB finishes, start a worker using fish & gold
Worker finishes, build another WB