Turn Discussion Thread

[Trystero]

OK - I ran through the Monarchy beeline again incorporating the changes discussed by LP, champinoman, and myself since the last test game. Namely:

1. Delay researching Sailing until after Mysticism > Meditation
2. Avoid whipping the WB in Canopus and work the Gold mine ASAP
3. Build an exploring Warrior in Sirius after the 2nd exploring WB.
4. Build a worker (partially chopped) in Canopus after the WB.

Here's the result:

29: Lord Parkin chop complete.
30:
* Grow to 4, work fish, fish, gold, gold.
* Workboat complete. Workboat explores in a clockwise direction, heading around the northern tip of the land we can see to the east.
* Set production to Settler.
* Move Lord Parkin SW-SW (11) to grass forest hill
31: Set Lord Parkin to chop.
32: No action
33:
* Animal Handling research complete. Set research to Writing.
* Lord Parkin chop complete.
34: Lord Parkin completes already begun road 1W of Sirius
35:
* Lord Parkin moves S (2) to grassland forest.
* Settler complete. Move settler to city site 'C', taking advantage of the road.
* Sirius builds warrior
36:
* Set Lord Parkin to chop
* REVOLT to Slavery
37: No Action
38:
* Writing complete. Set research to Mysticism
* Switch build to Library.
* Warrior complete. Garrisons Sirius
* Found Canopus at city site 'C'.
* Canopus works a Flood Plain and builds a WB
* Lord Parkin's chop complete.
39: Lord Parkin moves to Canopus Gold Hill (3 turns)
40: No Action
41:
*Library complete, start WB
*Mysticism complete, start Meditation.
42: Lord Parkin mines Gold Hill 1SE of Canopus.
43:
*Sirius grows to pop 5, works 2 Fish, 2 Gold Hills, Forested Silk tiles.
*Borders of Canopus expand
44:
*Canopus grows to pop 2, work both Flood Plains.
*Meditation complete, start Sailing
45:
*WB done in Sirius start Warrior
*Gold mine done in Canopus and connected by river. Canopus works FP + Gold
46: Lord Parkin moves 1N to chop.
47:
*Finish Sailing, Start Priesthood.
*Warrior done in Sirius, start Galley.
*WB done in Canopus, start Worker. WB moves to Fish.
*Lord Parkin starts chop.
48: WB improves Fish tile in Canopus, Canopus switches to working Fish + Gold.
49:
*Priesthood done, start Monarchy
*Chop done. Lord Parkin free to move
50: No Action? (Worker?)
51: Sirius grow to pop 6, runs Scientist + Silk.
52:
*Galley done in Sirius, start Settler (done in 9 turns).
*Worker done in Canopus, start WB.
(Monarchy will be done on turn 56)

This works out really well! Inserting Myst. + Med. before Sailing doesn't delay hooking the Gold up in Canopus, and gets us the Galley only one turn later, with it's passenger (the Warrior) already built! That won't delay exploration at all. and we get Meditation a full 3 turns earlier.

Working the Gold in Canopus earlier also gets us Monarchy a full turn earlier (on turn 56).

I'm really starting to like this approach.

 

[Irgy]

Some thoughts;
* I would want to put at least two warriors in our first galley to send across to the next island.

* I'd be extremely surprised if we get Buddhism after having teched writing, even if we do skip Sailing. The fact that the early religeons haven't gone yet means nothing. I wouldn't expect them to have gone already, the time when I would expect them to go is during or just after our research of writing. We'll know more when the time comes though.

* I'm still hoping our exploring workboat finds another civ before we would otherwise have started on Mysticism, at which point I'd want to be able to pick it up in trade.

* Canopus should not be working a floodplains until population 4 or so. The sooner the workboat is built, the sooner it can work the fish and grow quickly. I'm imagining plains-forest-hill, switched to gold when gold is improved, then fish when fish is improved, back onto gold at population 2 and building a second workboat for the other fish. Building the workboat as fast as possible is exactly what you would do if it was turn 0 and Canopus was the capital, this is not a great deal different.

 

[Trystero]

Some thoughts;
* I would want to put at least two warriors in our first galley to send across to the next island.

I can see the point of this, but I wouldn't want to delay getting an explorer over to the other island. We could insert 2 Warrior builds in place of the 2nd exploring WB, I suppose. This decision might depend on what the first exploring WB finds.

* I'd be extremely surprised if we get Buddhism after having teched writing, even if we do skip Sailing. The fact that the early religeons haven't gone yet means nothing. I wouldn't expect them to have gone already, the time when I would expect them to go is during or just after our research of writing. We'll know more when the time comes though.

Yes, that's certainly true. But again, the religion isn't the goal here, it's Monarchy. Rearranging the tech order merely increases the chances that we'll get to Meditation first. None of our current plans depend on founding a religion

* I'm still hoping our exploring workboat finds another civ before we would otherwise have started on Mysticism, at which point I'd want to be able to pick it up in trade.

That would be nice.

* Canopus should not be working a floodplains until population 4 or so. The sooner the workboat is built, the sooner it can work the fish and grow quickly. I'm imagining plains-forest-hill, switched to gold when gold is improved, then fish when fish is improved, back onto gold at population 2 and building a second workboat for the other fish. Building the workboat as fast as possible is exactly what you would do if it was turn 0 and Canopus was the capital, this is not a great deal different.

The problem with this is that I don't think getting the WB out sooner is advantageous unless it lets us work more tiles sooner. In particular, in this case we want to work the Gold ASAP. I tried hurrying the WB by working a better tile, and it does not. If I work the PFH tile in Canopus (+3) rather than the FP (+3, +1) we get the WB 3 turns sooner, but Canopus doesn't grow to size 2 until turn 50. That's a full six turns later than in the current proposal, and 4 turns of working the Gold which are lost. The end result is that Monarchy comes 1 turn later. Also, we'd have to build something other than a worker when the WB is done, since Canopus will still be at size 1. I think the relevant consideration is that we want to grow Canopus to size 2 as fast as we can. Working the floodplains does that.

Edit: I'd like to emphasize that I think working the Gold in Canopus sooner is an important aim regardless of what we choose to research next. I know I'm making these arguments in the context of a proposal to beeline Monarchy, but I think this plan for Canopus (working the Gold ASAP) is sound even if we choose to pursue Math or IW.

 

[pindicator]

* I'm still hoping our exploring workboat finds another civ before we would otherwise have started on Mysticism, at which point I'd want to be able to pick it up in trade.

I think this is highly unlikely. We currently have the highest GNP in the game, yet (under some alternate tech-line) even we would not be able to tech Alphabet before our current schedule of teching Mysticism.

 

[Trystero]

One more thing that occurred to me, based on the discussions of the test game: If we are not going to whip in Canopus prior to researching Monarchy, then we can delay the revolt to Slavery until we can change civics to both Slavery and HR. This would be preferable since we would have one less turn of anarchy. That means we'd get to Monarchy (and Meditation) one turn sooner, and it would speed up the builds in Sirius by one turn (explorers out faster).

 

[Trystero]

Turn 30 - 2800 BC

Sirius has grown to size 4. We are now working both Fish and both Gold tiles.

Lord Parkin moved SW-SW to the grassland hill 2W of Sirius. He will start chopping on the next turn.

The Work Boat is complete in Sirius, and we've started a Settler. The Work Boat moved SE-SE toward the other island. No new tiles revealed.

The relevant part of the map:

Spoiler :

Demographics:

Spoiler :

We are the top city:

Spoiler :

No religions founded, no wonders built.

The WB should probably move 1E-1NE (or 2NE?) on the next turn. Also I think we should name the WB/Galleys as well to keep better track of them. How about names of spacecraft or space probes, real or fictional? I was thinking Mariner, Pioneer, or Voyager for our exploring WBs (after the earliest craft to explore the solar system).

Edit: 2E might have been the better WB move (followed by 1E+1NE) since we want to go N. I was probably thinking about taking the most direct route rather than the most Northern. If we move 2E next we'll reveal the fogged coastal tile and an additional land tile. Perhaps that's the way to go.

 

[Irgy]

... The Work Boat moved SE-SE toward the other island. No new tiles revealed.

Ugh. What part of "Workboat explores in a clockwise direction, heading around the northern tip of the land we can see to the east" made you move SE-SE?

Edit: 2E might have been the better WB move (followed by 1E+1NE) since we want to go N. I was probably thinking about taking the most direct route rather than the most Northern. If we move 2E next we'll reveal the fogged coastal tile and an additional land tile. Perhaps that's the way to go.

Ok so you noticed this yourself too. Please take some care when deciding about moves that aren't spelled out. That goes for all of us. The fact that you've corrected yourself is proof enough that you hadn't thought it through fully.

Of course if you knew what I'd done in a certain SGTOM recently you wouldn't be listening to me about "taking care when moving in a team game". I'm not trying to have a go at you, just pointing it out. I blame myself in this case for going to all the trouble to write a micro plan thread but then leaving this bit out.

We absolutely do not want to go 2E next turn. The workboat is for making contact with other civs, not for exploring the other island. We will see the fogged tiles on the islands with galley warriors well before we need to know what they are, it's not worth delaying another half-turn to look at that one square sooner.

How about names of spacecraft or space probes, real or fictional? I was thinking Mariner, Pioneer, or Voyager for our exploring WBs (after the earliest craft to explore the solar system).

I like this idea.

 

[Irgy]

So, I had a play around with micro in Canopus. I see what you mean about missing out on gold turns - it's a question of timing, we need to grow to pop 2 so it's better to grow while the gold isn't improved. Complicated by the fact that we can chop the workboat. I'll come up with a few alternatives and compare the food/hammers/beakers directly.

I think this is highly unlikely. We currently have the highest GNP in the game, yet (under some alternate tech-line) even we would not be able to tech Alphabet before our current schedule of teching Mysticism.

That's exactly my point. Out current schedule will get Mysticism well before we have any hope of picking it up in trade. If on the other hand if for instance we researched Alphabet ourselves, by the time we were finished we'd probably have found another civ.

I'm still far from convinced we're in a hurry to chase after Monarchy. My old argument is that it was a complete tech detour. From looking at the test game, I have a new argument: We have no health resources. At 6 population, Sirius is already at its health cap. So the benefits of increasing the happy cap beyond the 6 we can get it to already are rapidly diminishing. We do still get to work a few more coattages, but the usual situation where health resources are plentiful and as soon as HR comes in the population grows dramatically is just not the case here.

We'll want Monarchy eventually sure, but I think this strengthens the argument for getting things like Math and Alphabet first.

 

[AlphaShard]

We do have Fish as a Health resource.

So if we don't want to go north, then we go south?

 

[Trystero]

Ugh. What part of "Workboat explores in a clockwise direction, heading around the northern tip of the land we can see to the east" made you move SE-SE?

Sorry. Moving around the island clockwise was clear enough. It was how to get to the island I botched.

Ok so you noticed this yourself too. Please take some care when deciding about moves that aren't spelled out. That goes for all of us. The fact that you've corrected yourself is proof enough that you hadn't thought it through fully.

Yeah, again, sorry. That was really stupid. I have no good excuse for my actions.

So, I had a play around with micro in Canopus. I see what you mean about missing out on gold turns - it's a question of timing, we need to grow to pop 2 so it's better to grow while the gold isn't improved. Complicated by the fact that we can chop the workboat. I'll come up with a few alternatives and compare the food/hammers/beakers directly.

OK, cool. One other parameter that should be considered: the slider. After we found Canopus, we have to drop the slider to 90% owing to maintenance costs (-2 /turn). At that setting (in my test game) we earn +2 /turn. I left the slider at 90% for the rest of the test game, but we could switch it back to 100% after we accumulate enough to hurry research.

I'm still far from convinced we're in a hurry to chase after Monarchy. My old argument is that it was a complete tech detour. From looking at the test game, I have a new argument: We have no health resources. At 6 population, Sirius is already at its health cap. So the benefits of increasing the happy cap beyond the 6 we can get it to already are rapidly diminishing. We do still get to work a few more cottages, but the usual situation where health resources are plentiful and as soon as HR comes in the population grows dramatically is just not the case here.

Fair enough. From my perspective though, unhappiness is far more detrimental than unhealthiness. True, both will limit our development, but I see unhappiness as the bigger problem. By the time we've teched Monarchy we could either trade it for Math (and aqueducts), or our research rate will allow us to self-research it in 6-7 turns. Granted, if we aren't going to grow our cities much more in the near future, the value of raising the caps is debatable. I have been arguing that i think we should try to grow Sirius, at least, to finance our expansion. An alternate path might be to tech toward Currency through Alphabet and build wealth.

We do have Fish as a Health resource.

True, but that is already built into the micro plan I proposed. That allows us to get to 6 pop in Sirius without growing to unhealthiness.

So if we don't want to go north, then we go south?

My blunder essentially puts us a half turn behind if we go north. True, we wouldn't lose any turns going south, but perhaps we should stick with the original plan.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Off the top of my head, what about...

Size 1, work flood plain and start WB
At size 2, work gold min + flood plain
WB finishes, start a worker using fish & gold
Worker finishes, build another WB

I'd kind of thought working the PFH to get the WB out fastest might be the most efficient option, but we could look into this one.

The Work Boat is complete in Sirius, and we've started a Settler. The Work Boat moved SE-SE toward the other island. No new tiles revealed.

Oh no... that puts us a whole turn behind on our clockwise exploration. The Work Boat can't go immediately 1NE next turn, because it's an ocean not in our territory. This means he has to go either 1E-1NE or 1N-1NE. This means we're a whole turn behind on our clockwise exploration for no good reason.

Ah well, never mind, mistakes happen. I should have thought to point out ahead of time the exact path the Work Boat should take, I guess, although I thought the move wouldn't be rushed into either.

EDIT: Actually, I guess if we go 1N-1NE it's potentially only a half-turn lost. So we should take that move next time. Please be more careful in future, though!

 

[AlphaShard]

I named the WB Voyager after it was suggested seems like a good name to me.

 

[Trystero]

Oh no... that puts us a whole turn behind on our clockwise exploration. The Work Boat can't go immediately 1NE next turn, because it's an ocean not in our territory. This means he has to go either 1E-1NE or 1N-1NE. This means we're a whole turn behind on our clockwise exploration for no good reason.

Yeah, again, really sorry. I'll refrain from playing turns for a while.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Yeah, again, really sorry. I'll refrain from playing turns for a while.

Nah, it's okay dude, it's just one mistake, happens to us all sometimes. I shouldn't have been so hard on you. You don't need to stop playing turns just because of one mistake.

 

[pindicator]

The WB should probably move 1E-1NE (or 2NE?) on the next turn. Also I think we should name the WB/Galleys as well to keep better track of them. How about names of spacecraft or space probes, real or fictional? I was thinking Mariner, Pioneer, or Voyager for our exploring WBs (after the earliest craft to explore the solar system).

i super-duper like this!

I'm still far from convinced we're in a hurry to chase after Monarchy. My old argument is that it was a complete tech detour. From looking at the test game, I have a new argument: We have no health resources. At 6 population, Sirius is already at its health cap. So the benefits of increasing the happy cap beyond the 6 we can get it to already are rapidly diminishing. We do still get to work a few more coattages, but the usual situation where health resources are plentiful and as soon as HR comes in the population grows dramatically is just not the case here.

I see your point. By the time we research Monarchy, the only city we'll have pushing the happy cap is the capital. And that city probably will want to be focusing on either 2 specialists for a GrSci or Settlers/Workers for new cities.

Perhaps the tech discussion will need a new thread? Or even a new poll!

We may have another issue which you touch on: what if this map is purposefully designed to have health be the limiting factor on city size. Perhaps we should be mindful of future chopping until we can explore a bit more and see if there are health resources to be had. And if health is a concern, then Maths and IW -> Compass get a little bit of a bump on the priority listing.

I'd kind of thought working the PFH to get the WB out fastest might be the most efficient option, but we could look into this one.

As Trystero pointed out, the goal is to work the gold mine as quickly as possible. And since we have a forest chop providing most of the hammers needed for the WB, the flood plain + chop is the fastest way for us to get to size 2 and work both the WB and the Gold tiles.

Edit: I am eager to see what the other scenarios that Irgy concocted show!

 

[azzaman333]

Why not just go anti-clockwise with the workboat?

Also, Hereditary Rule will still allow us to grow larger than we would from getting more health. Happiness is a hard cap, healthiness can be ignored to an extent.

 

[AlphaShard]

The unhealthyness still looses us food though.

 

[Trystero]

Nah, it's okay dude, it's just one mistake, happens to us all sometimes. I shouldn't have been so hard on you. You don't need to stop playing turns just because of one mistake.

Thanks, but it's OK. I had it coming. That was a pretty maneuver. I should have played the worker moves, and consulted the team on the WB.

I see your point. By the time we research Monarchy, the only city we'll have pushing the happy cap is the capital. And that city probably will want to be focusing on either 2 specialists for a GrSci or Settlers/Workers for new cities.

Perhaps the tech discussion will need a new thread? Or even a new poll!

I can see good reasons for a number of tech choices after Sailing. The problem is deciding which would best work with our "plan". So I think more than a tech poll, we might need a plan. That said I don't know if we know enough right now to make a good plan. One thing I thought we should discuss is what we are going to do with the cities we have (specialization?).

 

[Trystero]

Why not just go anti-clockwise with the workboat?

Edit: OK, looking through this thread, I agreed with Irgy's plan about going clockwise. Even we are making assumptions, it seemed reasonable.

 

[azzaman333]

The unhealthyness still looses us food though.

Losing food isn't much of a penalty. Sure, it's not ideal, but it doesn't prevent the city from getting bigger unless we're low on surplus food in the first place, in which case we're not going to be doing much growing anyway.