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Twillight of Byzantium

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by Yoda Power, May 7, 2006.

  1. Yoda Power

    Yoda Power ✫✫✫✫✫✫✫

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    It does? I always thought the twilight of something was it's post-climax.

    Anyway I think the name is too known at this point to be changed, I even kept the extra "l" when I realized it was wrong.
     
  2. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

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    Really? :eek: Twilight suggests you a golden age? Twilight

    Look, from that site:

    a. the diffused light from the sky during the early evening or early morning when the sun is below the horizon and its light is refracted by the earth's atmosphere.
    b. The time of the day when the sun is just below the horizon, especially the period between sunset and dark.

    2. Dim or diffused illumination.

    3. A period or condition of decline following growth, glory, or success: in the twilight of his life.

    4. A state of ambiguity or obscurity.
     
  3. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    Another good read, St Exupère!
     
  4. dferrill

    dferrill Warlord

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    Twillight means late or the end. or in the case of this scenario the last days of the Byzantine empire.
     
  5. RulerOfDaPeople

    RulerOfDaPeople Emperor

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    I stand corrected. :)

    Just another example of how culture is so important. Growing up that's the way people used that word around me. The rare times I would hear family say that word it was reffered in a possitive prosperitous context. Either that or it's actual meaning as in the lighting a star gives. To farther out this example, my mother and father to this day still use the word "ignorant" as a replacement for the word "rude". I can't tell you how sick I am hearing my mother mean to tell a family member after them being a jerk that they were rude, but her words were, "You're ignorant!" Or... "Don't be ignorant!"

    Enviornment and culture can change the meaning of words.... and several other parts of life. ;)
     
  6. Yoda Power

    Yoda Power ✫✫✫✫✫✫✫

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    Hehe I know what you mean. My mother think everything is "perverse", instead of bad/evil.
     
  7. St Exupère

    St Exupère Warlord

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    ... Byzantine/emperor continued (1400-1430)

    The fun goes on; I feel as if I was playing 4 games in 1 with the separate areas of Thracia, Macedonia, Morea and Philadelphia offering very different challenges.

    In Thracia I remain on the defensive, fending off the occasional Ansar warrior raids with ease. I invest in a military academy in Constantinople only to find out after that an army costs 400 shields which is a lot. Having no tar I cannot build any sort of fleet and just have to watch as everyone's navy passes by the Strait of the Bosphorus. In 1418 I manage to re-open the horses farm west of Adrianople which is some achievement. My army of knights launches a few raids near Plovdiv to prevent the Ottomans from taking it; the situation is such that I cannot attack the weakening Bulgars for fear of having the Ottomans run over me, while a head-to-head conflict with the Turks seems premature. By 1430 however I have managed to move some sizeable army to the hills north of Alexandropolis, with trebuchets bombarding ennemy positions and my army attempting a few raids. Morale is much better and an orthodox cathedral has even been consecrated in Adrianople to show our ennemies the strength of our faith.

    It is in Macedonia that the stakes are at the highest in our clash with the Serbian empire. Our broad alliance starts paying off with the Bosnians taking 2 northern Serb cities and cutting off Belgrade from Raska, while the Pirates take Skadar, east of their Ragusa stronghold. Yet the Serbs fight hard in the hills between Thessalonica and Ochrida, with much infantry and knights. Byzantine losses are heavy during a major assault in 1416; but the alliance starts to seriously wear down on Serbian re-enforcements from up north and finally Ochrida is conquered in 1430! This is a major geostrategical achievement giving much depth to Byzance in Macedonia, releasing pressure on Thessalonica and isolating all greek-serbian colonies from their northern base. Furthemore, a road link to the Venetian city of Durazzo enables continued and safe trade with Mistra in Morea.

    In Morea troops have been massing up in Mistra, while the Latin duchés faced continued pressure from Napoli. After very heavy fighting in the mountains south of Corinth (and the slaughter of many of our orthodox monks), and heavy losses on both sides, the port city of Pirgos is finally conquered in 1420. 2 years later, the Napolitans take Taranto and the desperate Latins move their capital to Athens. A much needed salpeter mine is opened and our forces get ready for a siege of Corinth.

    In Anatolia heroic Philadelphia continues to survive. At some point a strong rush by the Ottomans again almost brings the city down, but most defenders recover in-time and the christian stronghold still holds against all odds. Ottomans are on the rampage, continue to push eastwards vs the Beyliks and even raze the city of Antalya in their furor.

    Elsewhere I am lucky with the Genoese carrying on their fight vs Ottomans; not that they gain any ground, but recently they have dragged into an alliance Napoli, Florence and the very powerful Mameluks in 1428. This could keep the Turks busy in the east and just maybe, give me a shot in southern Thracia.

    The Venetians blackmail me for gold and I have to give in. They are very advanced yet are being bullied by the powerful Hospitaliers who now control 6 islands in the Aegan Sea.

    In Italy the Papal States have been squizzed by the wars I had initiated and while their city of Ancone was turned to ashes, the main effect for Byzance was the end of their nasty naval raids in the Aegan. Amen to that.

    It would have not been wise to compete for the wonders, I thought; Leonardo's W. goes to Mameluks, Sistine Chapel to Florentians and Naval Domination to the Genoans. At turn 38 I am still leading in VP's with 13,935 with Ottomans at 8,860 and Latins, Slavs/Beyliks and Mameluks close behind. My situation has improved, though slowly. I now control 10 cities and can hope to continue progress in Macedonia and Morea though I have to be careful not to over-extend my thin army. I will never be able to contend at sea so Byzance is to be a land power on the European shores; the ultimate goal would be a re-conquest of Ottomans' positions in Thracia (Alexandropolis, Gallipoli). Of that I am not capable yet.
     
  8. Yoda Power

    Yoda Power ✫✫✫✫✫✫✫

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    I am amazed you actually are able to keep Philadelphia, I don't think I have ever succeded in during that as the Byzantines.
     
  9. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    I managed to keep Philadelphia for a long time on a Monarch game I've been playing. I managed to hold the whole of Greece, re-liberated Adrianople (it got captured early on)+Alexandropolis, and managed to defeat the Latins, Serbs, Bulgars AND I kicked the Ottomans out of Europe. However, the Hospitallers proved to be a real pain (they kept taking any island cities a few turns after I took them! In fact, I've only retained Thasos!), and an early war with Venice went nowhere (I managed to take a 1 tile island off them for a long time, until the Hospitallers took it back!) The Ottomans have crushed all but Cilicia in Asia Minor, and now I'm at war with Cilicia, the Pirates, and Bosnia (the 3rd of which I don't really want to be fighting, as they have access to MANY undefended towns), due to alliances.
     
  10. St Exupère

    St Exupère Warlord

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    IMO the keys to hold onto Philadelphia are:

    1/ never ever build anything but soldiers
    2/ do not hesitate to rush build at critical times
    3/ never run after any wounded assaillants
    4/ invest on trebuchets
    5/ luck

    The 4/ in particular I built very early on and it softened the attacks a lot. Yet I was very near to defeat on 2 occasions by the Ottomans - once they killed half my garrison and the second time I basically only had 1hp left on all my defenders yet only 1 of them died. The number 3/ was learnt the hard way at some point - I wanted to destroy road infrastructure in ennemy territory around me, I will not do it again.

    Also what is a key factor is how well the Beyliks resist to the Ottomans, in particular Aydin. In my game, after 50 turns they resist quite well still holding 4 cities. I am now in 1456 and Phladelphia is better defended than ever with 3 mercenary pikemen + 2 crossbowmen + 1 infantry + 2 trebuchets. And good morale.
     
  11. Yoda Power

    Yoda Power ✫✫✫✫✫✫✫

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    I think the trebuchet part is were I failed in my attempts, don't use them a lot.
     
  12. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    I think #2+#3 are my problems!

    I think the key factor with regards to the Beyliks+the Ottomans is how much the Ottomans attack the Beyliks/the Beyliks attack the Ottomans.
     
  13. cubsfan6506

    cubsfan6506 Got u

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    There is on exception to number three if they have an army with one hp left.
     
  14. Maimonides

    Maimonides Emperor

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    Yoda Power, fantastic scenario! I finally downloaded it last night & have played one game as Venice.

    -I quit in 1516 because I was 21k points behind the Ottomans.

    -The Byzantines managed to build Sistine Chapel in Constanople before the Ottomans took it. With one of three wonders & the victory point, there was no way of defeating the Ottomans before timre ran out.

    -The Ottomans conquered all of Anatolia except for one small Muslim caliphate which they never attacked for some reason. They also conquered all of the Balkans except for the Wallachians, The Latin cities in southern Greece & my cities on the Adriatic coast. They were so strong militarily that everyone they fought was conquered & eliminated. The only exception was my naval superiority. I sank or captured every ship that came out of the Bosporus with my pirates. They could have conquered the entire mainland had they tried.

    -The Papal States sent many units marching around the Adriatic & across Greece to attack the Byzantines, but they never captured a city. They only launched a few galleys which I easily sunk with my pirates.

    -The Florentines were the only faction to return a treasure. They returned two that somehow slipped past my Pirates. They were not a threat to anyone militarily. They built Leonardo's Workshop.

    -I conquered the Pirates without trouble. It just took some time to build the units to do it.

    -The Mamluks & the Muslim faction in Morrocco & Algeria didn't participate at all. They remained neutral the whole game & never launched a single ship. Nobody ever attacked them.

    -The Genoese & Neopolitans built very few land units. They launched allot of ships, but I sank or captured every one I saw with my pirates. Genoa built the Naval wonder in Sardinia.

    -The Hospitalers were nonexistant. They were at war with the Byzantines, but I never saw a single unit of theirs & they made no territory gains at all.

    -Rhodes & Crete built a few ships, but that's it. I thought about conquering them, but decided to finish off the Pirates & go for the Muslims next & never got to them. My reasoning was that that was what Venice would probably do.

    -The Latin Duchies were the most active Christian faction besides me. They took a few Byzantine cities in the Balkans & launched allot of ships.

    I had several treasures waiting in the Aegean & the ships to carry them, but not enough spare ground units to pick them up. By the time I built them, transported them to the Aegean & back the turn limit would have run out. With the Ottomans being all powerful on land & not enough time to return my treasures, I'm not sure how to win as Venice. Even if I could have returned my treasures, I'm not sure I could have made up the huge VP gap. I did waste many turns trying to build a wonder in Venice. I won't bother trying to build a wonder again. My ships almost totally controlled the seas which was my highlight.

    Any advice on how to win as Venice would be appreciated. I couldn't win the VP race in time & I couldn't hope to defeat the Ottomans on land.

    It struck me from the 1st turn that this scenario would be perfect for replaying the 4th Crusade with a little tweaking. The only thing missing is Northen France & Germany where many of the Crusaders came from.

    The French & Germans gathered in France & argued about whether to march or sail to Venice. They had worked out a deal with Venice to provide the naval power to get them to the Holy Land. In the end, some marched & some sailed to Venice which created deep animosity among the Crusade's leadership. Some skipped Venice altogether & sailed directly to the Holy Land on their own. Those that made it to Venice met up with Crusaders from Italy.

    In Venice, more problems confronted them. The Byzantines had begun to favor Genoa over Venice as a trading partner which was totally unpalatable to Venice. Constantinople was the main gateway to Asia & Venice needed to trade through it. There was also a dispute over the Byzantine throne. The Doge of Venice told the Crusaders they would not be given passage to the Holy Land unless they took Constantinople to restore trade & the emperor favored by Venice. The Pope disupted this plan publicly, but supported it privately because Catholic influence was waning in the Byzantine Empire. Some Crusaders refused to attack a Christian city & left. The rest had no choice but to comply.

    After setting sail, the Venetians sailed the fleet to a Papal city that had been growing as a trading rival & had been refusing to sell vital lumber to Venice. They besieged the city & the Crusaders had no choice but to participate for a share of spoils or sit on the ships. Many participated. The city fell & was sacked. The Pope was furious & threatened to excommunicate all the Crusaders & the entire city of Venice, but knew he couldn't because they were the last hope to regain Jerusalem. Again, some Crusaders left in protest of seeing a Christian city sacked.

    The remnant sailed on around Greece & took several Byzantine islands in the Aegean & a few Byzantine cities on the Anatolian coast before arriving at Byzantium. Long story short, they totally sacked the city & set about carving up the remnants of the Byzantine empire among themselves. They never made it to the Holy Land.

    Please forgive any factual errors. I'm typing this by memory. This scenario reminds me of the 4th Crusade because of Venice's seapower & seeing all the Western Christians ignoring the Muslims & attacking the Byzantines.

    Anyway, great scenario! I'm gonna try to survive as the Byzantines next. The Ottomans look too powerful to be a challenge to play as.
     
  15. Yoda Power

    Yoda Power ✫✫✫✫✫✫✫

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    Thanks for the nice comments.

    I managed to win as Venice, so it defiently is possible. My best advice is not going after the pirates, but Genoa instead. If you can control both the Venetian and Genoese islands in the Aegean, then you got a good basis of treasure producing cities, just make sure to have the needed transport units. ;)

    The Ottomans seems to have done quite good in your game, this doesn't always happen though, but it is true that playing as the Ottomans is slightly easier than the other civs, so if you try them, just move up one level. :)

    The Byzantines can pose quite a challenge too, but they are pretty fun to play, and it is possible to win if you concentrate on mainland Greece (though remember to have Constantinople well defended).
     
  16. Maimonides

    Maimonides Emperor

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    Thanks for the advice.

    I'm playing now as the Byzantines & doing pretty well. I couldn't hold Philadelphia or Alexandropolis, but I've retaken all of mainland Greece & am moving north through the Balkans & along the Black Sea. Once the Balkans are secure, I'll be in a good position to boot the Ottomans out of Europe.

    I'm wondering, should the Varangian guard be in this scenario? A major reason the 4th Crusade was able to take Constantinople was that the Varangian guard was way past it's glory days. They were down to only a few hundred men at the time, had bad morale & fled during the fight. I thought that was the end of the Varangian guard. I am not aware that the Crusader appointed emperors (there were at least three the 1st year) reformed the Varangian guard. The Varangians were a mixture of exiled Britons & Vikings so the post-4th Crusade Byzantines would not have had anyone to form another Varangian guard from.

    Would it be a major job to make a version that allows factions like the Papal States or the Mamluks to be playable? I'd love to play as those two. It would be fun to try to keep the Christian factions united against the Muslims as the Pope.
     
  17. Yoda Power

    Yoda Power ✫✫✫✫✫✫✫

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    No the Varangian Guard are there for fun only, I'm normally against such historical mistakes, but this scenario was always intended to rate gameplay over accuracy. You can just delete them from the map if you don't like them.

    You can make the other civs playable in the editor if you want, but I won't promise you if it will be too hard or too easy to win, because they aren't intended to be playable.
     
  18. Maimonides

    Maimonides Emperor

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    Gotcha. Thanks for the quick replies.

    I am about to win as the Byzantines. Two turns to go. I liberated Alexandropolis in 1520 & Gallipoli the following turn.:) I am about to eliminate the Bulgars.

    I just noticed that there is a Grassland tile with a Fish resource. I've never seen that before!:lol: It's located by Moncastro on the Black Sea coast.
     
  19. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    Someone would have cleared a marsh with a fish on it :)
     
  20. yotaja

    yotaja Chieftain

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    Great mod. I tried to play in the level monarch with the Byzantines it's very dificult. In the first five turns I have lost Alexandropolis and Adrianople, but I conquered Arta, Ioannina and Durraco from the Venetians with a lot of luck, only with the two knights. In Central Greece I have some archers and my pikemans, but I have tow new cities- Arta and Ioanina. The Latin Duches and the Serbians are very strong here. Now I have the diplomacy and the Bosnians, the Pirates and the Sienese republic are pleace to come with me in the war against the Venetians. And I have to report that my monks win in some battle, but didnt produced Knights?????????? Is that a bug????? Because when I tried some other times with the Byzantines in the same mod, the monks converted to Knights, and now not?????????
    I have succeded to built in Constantinople Joust arena and Keep, while I still had acced to tar. I have lost all of pikemansin Trakia, and now I have only one pikeman and tow infantries, except the guards of course, in Constantinople.
    Probably the decision to make a war with the Venetians is very wrong, but I conquered a very important city, I know, that I had to concentrate my power in central Greece and to liberate Pelopones. Philadelfia is still mine.
    How many turns continue the war with the Slavs, Begliks, Ottomans and the other.


    1 Why in the mod is not the Hungarian Kingdom? The hungarians have made two great Chrstian Crusades campaigns in 1396 and in 1443-1444. They are the most important enemy of the Ottomans

    2. Belgrade is a Hungarian city at this time!

    3. Where are the albanians under the rule of the great Skenderbeg?

    4. The Bulgarian Kingdom at this time is divided to three states:

    - Tarnovo Kingdom

    - Vidin Kingdom

    - Dobrudja Despotate, which is in alliance with the Trebizond Empire against the Genoese republic in Black sea

    5. It will be great if in the mod is Pera (Galata), a Genoese colony near Constantinople.
     

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