Twitter mob gets fantasy novel cancelled.

[Patine]

Your fault is that you have all the fruits brought by that and also the present day ongoing neo-colonialism. And you won’t give it up willingly.

But then again, those assimilated Blacks and other non-Europoid ethnicities residing in Europe or USA have all the same fruits nowadays. So the whiners from among them have this luxury of whining limitlessly.

There is no ethnicity that did not exist on a purely small-tribal level prior the Colonial Age who did not practice in form or another (and even a few small tribal, like the Haida, notably practiced slavery as unusual exceptions). The Aztecs and other Mesoamericans practiced slavery. The Inca practiced slavery. The Chinese practiced slavery. The East Indians practiced slavery. The Indonesians practiced slavery. Islamic and Temple-era Jewish culture practiced slavery, and management of it is in their scriptures (the Hebrew word for "slave" is just translated into the Old Testament if most modern Christian Bibles as "servant"). The Ancient Persians, Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans, all practiced slavery. Did I mention the pre-Colonial West African practiced it. Serfdom, wherever it was practiced, was a form of slavery. But, while I'm not all saying that Trans-Atlantic African chattel was not horrible and not a great injustice, another great injustice is that, because, it has been declared by so many as first the "objectively worst sort," and then escalating by social drift into "the only meaningful sort," and then, by Old Testament Biblical-style "sins of the fathers" logic, "Europeans," in a very loosely defined way, are declared as being the sole instigators of, and the only ones every guilty of perpetrating, slavery, and are PERSONALLY responsibility to this day. That is where the dialogue and any sort of logic or perspective has broken down in a typical example - one of many - of human stupidity.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The species has done a lot of introspection since the advent of the printing press. most of that introspection has led to insights that have brought great prosperity, freedom, and happiness to all. Much of that introspection though requires we look back upon human history with some measure of horror. Without at least some feeling of shame about what this species has perpetuated on itself I think we are guilty of a mass (truly mass ) sociopathy that borders on insane. It would certainly show an inability to empathize with our ancestors. So do I think the guilt should keep you up at night? No. Do I think their is a collective guilt in the culture. Yea and I think its demonstrated by this very conversation, the topic, and the defensiveness around Europeans supposedly not supposed to feel bad about what their ancestors did. So yea you should feel bad when you reflect on it. It shouldn't be some passive fact you just file away under "Stuff that happened before me". How far back do I think this stuff should carry this kind of emotion? I guess that would depend on how it effects the current world. At some point it loses active relevance. The diaspora of the Jews is still playing out in the world as a fact, but it is hard for me to put a finger on a collective guilt there. It is not so hard with the Atlantic Slave Trade.

Anyways feel free to ignore this, I'm not asking you to have empathy for others in your life. I realize its not a trait all people are capable of, especially when the people are "others". Including others who are not alive anymore.

Empathy is critical, or we will be incapable of learning from the worst parts of our regions' history. It isn't even only slavery that factors into this. I've been told that I should feel remorse and guilt over the residential schools here in Canada, and my response is "why should I?" When asked, "If you didn't actively support them, what did you do to stop them?" Well, pardon me for not having been born or being in school, or not having been taught about them in the first place. I was either not born or was just a toddler during the Sixties Scoop, and only learned of that in the last couple of years.

It's the same with slavery. I get the impression from discussions such as these that some people think the African-American form of slavery is the only kind that ever existed, and after its abolishment, there's no more slavery in the world.

We all have a responsibility to become informed and educated about our respective countries' histories, but as for guilt... as said upthread, I will not accept guilt for what my ancestors may have done. Their actions are not my actions. I make an effort to learn history and if I can't actively make a situation better, at least I try not to make it worse. Responsible voting is something I try to do, as well - not supporting parties that honestly couldn't give a damn about the marginalized segments of society.

 

[metalhead]

Drought resistant disease resistant wheat(Borlaug) and other crops are not bespoke to a particular method of horsepower generation or economy of scale. Home baking full grain low processed bread and non irrigated local radishes does not require rampant salmonella and the eschewing of medical treatment and research, nor the abandonment of a first world information structure or school system.

No, it does not. However plowing over all of the suburbs to return to a largely agrarian society very well might.

 

[Farm Boy]

You have to ask what the labor substitutes. Probably the service sector and manufacturing. Probably pretty hard. Suburban lawns are a terrible waste, they could be gardens. Or really anything, other than they are. We work two jobs a family, we could probably do one "employed." There's more work than "dusk till dawn" though, as the saying goes. True animal powered ag took ~40% of the population in the late 1800s early 1900s. We're running 1% now. Getting the petroleum out would probably add back in 10-15%, other technologies have improved. A lot. Getting the petroleum out also dictates condensing the suburbs to small, more concentrated towns(those old quaint and quiety mainstreets), regional cities, and metropolitan centers. We could do it, we probably should do it, we should probably start on it now. But everyone seems to think they'd turn speds and start humping horses if they picked up a hoe and learned to grow food in earnest. Or lived in a society/economy which took it serious, communal, efficient, and small. Which is ridiculous.

 

[metalhead]

"Your lawn is a waste! Rip it out and replace it with another thing you have to treat, trim, and water regularly but looks worse!"

But hey, the deer would eat like kings.

 

[Farm Boy]

Rabbits and bugs too. That's part of the point, yes.

 

[metalhead]

Can I get a bigger lawn and a dairy cow instead?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Generally, when one supports the breaking down of society, especially to a format that is very much incompatible with urban density, it comes with getting rid of the people who don't or cannot support the replacement regime.

If you're not going to kill them, what are you going to do with them? Forced relocation? Prison camps? Hash this out for us. How do you get rid of the people who can't be a part of your new world?

Can't? There's more than enough work to go around. Especially if we're trying to meaningfully reduce horsepower generated through petroleum and calories produced via processing. I'd say make it pay. There's lots of green space growing a void calorie non-cash crop in the suburbs already.

There are a lot of people who, for various medical and psychological reasons, are not able to work. What would you do with them?

 

[Farm Boy]

Depends on your ordinaces?

Fresh milk/cheese/cream is yummers. Jerseys don't produce as much volume but they have better butterfat content.

Pasturage has a significantly different wildlife profile than a fertilized/rolled/plugged/watered/mowed/chemically weeded lawn(be it a modest suburban on or a massive farmyard/ditch), and removing almost any of the steps is an improvement. Just remove too many of them and one starts running afoul of ordinances again, right?

 

[Patine]

Depends on your ordinaces?

Fresh milk/cheese/cream is yummers. Jerseys don't produce as much volume but they have better butterfat content.

Pasturage has a significantly different wildlife profile than a fertilized/rolled/plugged/watered/mowed/chemically weeded lawn(be it a modest suburban on or a massive farmyard/ditch), and removing almost any of the steps is an improvement. Just remove too many of them and one starts running afoul of ordinances again, right?

Your ideas here sound VERY, DANGEROUSLY similar to the original seed and genesis ideas behind Khmer Rouge's "agrarian revival" program - even before intellectuals, educated professionals, people who spoke foreign languages, etc., were declared enemies to be slaughtered - but the starting ideas Pol Pot and friends had at the start. That didn't go so well, as I recall...

 

[Farm Boy]

<Sigh> I am not your damn windmill, whatever you're hallucinating. I suggested subsidizing agriculture differently and more in tune with conservation science and low petroleum production to combat global warming. I speculated that getting the petroleum out(down really, rather) would indeed require part of the workforce, I'm guessing 10-20%. Some of which would undoubtedly come from the shrinking manufacturing labor force, and some would probably have to come from service were we to free up the hands through skewing the money. Which we do already all the time, trillions of dollars a year!

But yes, go hump a cow and kill your neighbor if I suggest not poisoning your lawn into a monoculture. wtf. I know evil has been done in the name of just about every goal ever. Nothing will ever be an exception. John 12:3-5 rears its head again. How's that for a dangerous religious extremist seed, jump in terror, BOO!

 

[Hygro]

Your ideas here sound VERY, DANGEROUSLY similar to the original seed and genesis ideas behind Khmer Rouge's "agrarian revival" program - even before intellectuals, educated professionals, people who spoke foreign languages, etc., were declared enemies to be slaughtered - but the starting ideas Pol Pot and friends had at the start. That didn't go so well, as I recall...

Sooper dangerous.

 

[metalhead]

But yes, go hump a cow and kill your neighbor if I suggest not poisoning your lawn into a monoculture.

Most people don't do this any more btw. I wouldn't mind getting rid of the moss but the clovers are kind of nice.

 

[Traitorfish]

"People should consider replacing lawns with vegetable gardens."
"Hm, sounds a bit like the Cambodian Genocide to me."

I'd say "sounds kinda silly when you put it like that, huh", but... it was already like that?

 

[Lexicus]

I'd say "sounds kinda silly when you put it like that, huh", but... it was already like that?

As the one who originally brought up the Khmer Rouge I will say I was responding to some things that Mouthwash said, specifically the bit about "returning to traditional lifestyles" combined with the assertion that there are many times more people than useful jobs.

 

[Traitorfish]

As the one who originally brought up the Khmer Rouge I will say I was responding to some things that Mouthwash said, specifically the bit about "returning to traditional lifestyles" combined with the assertion that there are many times more people than useful jobs.

On the one hand, it's it's true that grandiose ambitions to revert to a Medieval agricultural economy do have an uncomfortable Year Zero vibe to them.

On the other hand, reducing the suburbs to a wasteland of blood and ash is something which I support implicitly.

I guess I'm what you'd call a "centrist".

 

[Broken_Erika]

On the one hand, it's it's true that grandiose ambitions to revert to a Medieval agricultural economy do have an uncomfortable Year Zero vibe to them.

On the other hand, reducing the suburbs to a wasteland of blood and ash is something which I support implicitly.

I guess I'm what you'd call a "centrist".

Cthulhu 2020
#NoLivesMatter

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Cthulhu 2020
#NoLivesMatter

Probably would be the most honest campaign slogan we'd ever see.

 

[Patine]

Cthulhu 2020
#NoLivesMatter

Probably would be the most honest campaign slogan we'd ever see.

I saw another one somewhere (I can't remember where - it was a few years ago) - it showed the cliched "Halloween-costume" Devil (pitchfork, small horns on head, goatee, opera suit, cape, etc.) saying "Don't vote for Conservatives who just pretend to be Christians, or God-hating Liberals who say they're doing the greater good - be honest with your vote and vote for a the Real Devil!"

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I saw another one somewhere (I can't remember where - it was a few years ago) - it showed the cliched "Halloween-costume" Devil (pitchfork, small horns on head, goatee, opera suit, cape, etc.) saying "Don't vote for Conservatives who just pretend to be Christians, or God-hating Liberals who say they're doing the greater good - be honest with your vote and vote for a the Real Devil!"

The whole religion angle + arbitrarily deciding it's okay to dictate what people do with themselves in only some cases even regardless of state funding is among several reasons I won't call myself a conservative. I'm sure I have biases and make mistakes, but I don't like such overt hypocrisy to the point where I'd have to lie to myself (and know I'm lying) to back it.

I'm not a fan of authoritarian practices from either side, and both use them. But then zero regulation isn't attractive either. Not only do I have no sides, the incomplete information and deliberate efforts by both sides to obfuscate makes it a chore (just think about our conversation on how DHS classifies terror, and how if they were self-consistent with it they would classify other government organizations as terror...and sadly in this case they'd be right on both counts). This makes using government data awkward, but probably still less awkward than politically funded research.

Makes me wonder how anybody can believe anything regarding this stuff strongly. Like what are they seeing that gives their trust a strong anchor?