UK Politics IV - In Lies we Don't Truss

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This is the point. At the moment this conflicts with the Human Rights Act 1998, which derives from the European Convention on Human Rights. IF someone was to be charged under this law they could use this as a defence, a judge would probably rule that this law was inconsistent with the HRA and strike it down. As long as no one is charged the courts do not have the power to strike this law down. If they repeal the Human Rights Act in a bonfire of regulations then this law will become enforceable.
 
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Missed this the first time around, but this is exactly why the matter of your support should be irrelevant in discussing their legal right, here.
I thought we had established that what Republic did was not illegal. And they had no criminal intent. They also, therefore, have a legal right to protest in their fashion. Just stop oil do not have a legal right to trash statues, throw paint on snooker tables, or blockade roads.
 
I thought we had established that what Republic did was not illegal.
Please read what I wrote again, and answer where I claimed what they did was illegal?

However the Tories could pass a law tomorrow making it so, which would knock this argument out from under itself. Because, for the nth time of repeating myself, we're discussing what types of protest should be protected. I am saying "all non-violent". You are saying "the non-violent stuff I, sherbz, personally find acceptable". I think that's a self-defeating position, and that it can and will be used against you / protest movements you personally approve of.

As we literally saw with Republic.
 
I thought we had established that what Republic did was not illegal. And they had no criminal intent. They also, therefore, have a legal right to protest in their fashion. Just stop oil do not have a legal right to trash statues, throw paint on snooker tables, or blockade roads.

How do you know that Just Stop Oil were planning to do any of those things on the day they were arrested?
 
No, it is not around, it is between those goalposts that was muddy; eveybody in England being in mortal fear
for over 150 years of having their head cut off or transported to Australia if they questioned the monarchy.
 
It is not like people never questioned whether the UK should be a monarchy in the 150 years between 1848 and 1998 ?
That is what Australia is for.
 
This kinda weak horsehocky is why centrist are fascists at the end of the day
Or, more accurately, why fascists disguise themselves as centrists.
Weren't the protesters detained for many hours? Some monetary compensation should be given along with the (meaningless) apology.
What apology?

The coronation arrests are just the start. Police can do what they want to us now

Draconian new powers allow the police to shut down every form of effective protest. It’s a green light for even greater abuses

Spoiler :
The more unequal a society becomes, the more oppressive its laws must be. This, I think, explains new acts that would not be out of place in a police state. So vague and broad are the powers granted to the police under last year’s Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act and this year’s Public Order Act that it is no longer clear where their abuse begins and ends.

At two o’clock on the morning of the coronation, the Metropolitan police, using the Police Act, arrested three people in Soho for carrying rape alarms. The police claimed they were acting on intelligence that rape alarms might be used to frighten the horses that would later be parading elsewhere.

The people they arrested were volunteers working for Westminster city council as “Night Stars”, helping to stop the sexual harassment of women. They give rape alarms to women who might need them. The alarms are funded by the Home Office. Night Stars volunteers wear pink tabards emblazoned with the logo of their partner organisation … the Metropolitan police. Yet the three volunteers who were arrested were cuffed for three hours and held for 14 before being released on bail.

Why would the police arrest their own partners? What was the “intelligence” on which they were acting? If they were really worried about rape alarms being misused, why did they not simply confiscate them? It looks to me like the old paso doble between police and press. Two weeks before, the Mail on Sunday had run a front-page story headlined “Extremists’ vile plot to spook King’s horses with rape alarms: Fears protesters planning to sabotage Charles’ Coronation could cause ‘serious injuries or even deaths’ … as eco-zealot groups set to join forces to cause chaos”.

The Mail produced precisely zero evidence that environmental or republican activists were planning such a thing. But if the police wanted to find people carrying these devices, they knew where to go. The arrests were used by the Mail as a vindication of its story. Though Westminster council had explained to the newspaper that those arrested were its volunteers, the Mail described them as “militant activists … arrested over a plot to throw rape alarms at horses during King Charles’s Coronation”.

Were it not for the patient work of the journalist Mic Wright, that’s how the story would have stood. Police and press are two tails of the same beast. The head of media at the Metropolitan police is a former crime reporter at the Daily Mail.

The new laws were also used pre-emptively to arrest campaigners from Republic and Just Stop Oil, and a journalist filming them, to thwart their vile plot to wear dangerous T-shirts and hold seditious placards. For good measure, Animal Rising said the police had rounded up some of its activists at a training session miles away from the coronation. Safer to arrest everyone who might dissent.

These laws have been introduced just as public trust in the police has collapsed. Louise Casey’s report, released in March, found the Metropolitan police to be institutionally racist, misogynistic and homophobic. Yet the police have now been granted discretionary powers so broad that they can shut down any protest, on the vaguest suspicion that it might prove to be “disruptive”. It’s a green light for even greater abuses.

The Police Act 2022 was bad enough, redefining “serious disruption” so widely that it could be applied to almost any situation, greatly increasing the penalties for acts of peaceful protest and creating a new and remarkably vague offence of “intentionally or recklessly causing public nuisance”, with a penalty of up to 12 months in prison. Half the people arrested at or around the coronation were detained on this charge. But the Public Order Act 2023 is much worse.

The new offences it creates have been designed to allow the police to shut down every form of effective protest. If you chain yourself to the railings or attach yourself to anything or anyone else you could be jailed for 51 weeks. If you carry equipment that the police claim could be used for such a purpose, you could also be breaking the law: at the coronation, protesters were arrested for the possession of string and luggage straps.

The act imposes blanket bans on protests against new roads, fracking or any other oil and gas works. If, as the anti-roads protester Swampy famously did, you dig a tunnel – or even enter one – you can be imprisoned for three years.

The act greatly expands the police power of suspicionless stop and search, which has been used to such discriminatory effect against black people. Anyone can now be searched if a police inspector or any other senior officer “reasonably believes” protests might happen somewhere in the area, or that someone somewhere might be carrying a “prohibited object”. If you resist a search, you can be imprisoned for 51 weeks.

The act introduces “serious disruption prevention orders”, whose purpose seems to be to take out what the police call “aggravated activists”: experienced campaigners and organisers, without whom coherent protests don’t happen. The orders impose sweeping restrictions on these people, preventing them from attending or encouraging protests, confining them to particular places, forcing them to report to police stations, prohibiting them from associating with others. They can extend, if the police and courts so choose, effectively to house arrest. They blur the line between civil standards of proof and criminal punishment: an order can be applied on a mere “balance of probabilities”, but if you breach its terms you can be imprisoned for 51 weeks. The order can last for two years, then be renewed for a further two.

The orders are among several forms of pre-emptive control and punishment permitted by the act. It necessitates a great widening of police surveillance, to identify people deemed likely to commit one of the new crimes. It has been introduced while the undercover policing inquiry, which continues to reveal appalling abuses by police spying on peaceful campaigners continues. They can do what they want to us now.

These are the state-of-emergency laws you would expect in the aftermath of a coup. But there is no public order emergency, just an emergency of another kind, that the protesters targeted by this legislation are trying to stop: the collapse of Earth systems. We are being compelled by law to accept the destruction of the living world.
 
How do you know that Just Stop Oil were planning to do any of those things on the day they were arrested?
On the coronation day in particular? I dont. I dont know if the reasons they were arrested were legitimate or not, not read much about their arrests. If they were arrested just for being from Just Stop oil that is clearly wrong. The police should have to demonstrate criminal intent to arrest anyone
 
Or, more accurately, why fascists disguise themselves as centrists.

Or more more accurately why centrists ultimately have no ability to actually combat fascism and end up meekly submitting to it because the antifascists are too "disruptive" anyway
 
On the coronation day in particular? I dont. I dont know if the reasons they were arrested were legitimate or not, not read much about their arrests. If they were arrested just for being from Just Stop oil that is clearly wrong. The police should have to demonstrate criminal intent to arrest anyone

Well they haven't.
Its an effective if unethical way of dealing with protest since most protesters can't afford the legal fees to take the Met to court.
 
I believe that most of my parents' generation were centrists and they spent six years fighting fascism during WW2.
Ironic really that the most vociferous opponents of fascism came not from the political left in this country, but from the political right. I suppose the left liked at least a part of National Socialism (i.e. the socialism). Thats the advantage of being a centrist, you can take the best bits of both walks and reject the nonsense :thumbsup:

Well they haven't.
Its an effective if unethical way of dealing with protest since most protesters can't afford the legal fees to take the Met to court.
I mostly agree with this. But the point still stands that if there is criminal intent then that is a legitimate reason to arrest someone. In some ways Keir is actually right on this point (and David Davis). The place to sort this out is in the committee arena. Which looks at how existing legislation can be better interpreted by the police. One could argue though that existing legislation was sufficient enough to deal with things. Police only had, after all, about a week to work all this out. So it is hardly surprising that they got it wrong here.
 
Ironic really that the most vociferous opponents of fascism came not from the political left in this country, but from the political right. I suppose the left liked at least a part of National Socialism (i.e. the socialism). Thats the advantage of being a centrist, you can take the best bits of both walks and reject the nonsense :thumbsup:
There was no "socialism" beyond the name, but I guess cheap ahistorical digs are easier than counterarguments.

Example #2 in why your opinion on what forms of non-violent protests should be completed ignored when discussing the right to non-violent protest in a democratic society. As with the first example - you only agree with it conditionally. Truly, a democratic soul. Good when you think it's good, and bad otherwise :D
 
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Ironic really that the most vociferous opponents of fascism came not from the political left in this country, but from the political right. I suppose the left liked at least a part of National Socialism (i.e. the socialism). Thats the advantage of being a centrist, you can take the best bits of both walks and reject the nonsense :thumbsup:

Absolute nonsense ofc. The right were big fans of Mussolini and Franco and it was a Conservative government that chose to stay neutral in a conflict between a democratically elected government and a military uprising and socialists from across Europe that went to fight and die in Spain. Quite a few Tories liked Hitler until the late 30s (eg the Cliveden Set and the Anglo-German Fellowship) and I can't recall any left wingers going to Berlin to be feted by Hitler.
 
Ironic really that the most vociferous opponents of fascism came not from the political left in this country, but from the political right. I suppose the left liked at least a part of National Socialism (i.e. the socialism). Thats the advantage of being a centrist, you can take the best bits of both walks and reject the nonsense

At that time many in the left admired the soviet union and I think it was the Ribbentrop & Molotov pact that reduced opposition to Hitlerism.
 
At that time many in the left admired the soviet union and I think it was the Ribbentrop & Molotov pact that reduced opposition to Hitlerism.

That pact and Hungary 56 and Czechoslovakia pretty much destroyed Communusms mass appeal iirc.
 
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