Ultimatum-type "trades"

[1940LaSalle]

Let's assume I have a score approximately triple that of a rival that has some resource I want/need but they're not sufficiently advanced to use. Suppose further I contact that civ and give that civ an "accept this deal or face the consequences" ultimatum. Is there any way to gauge the odds as to whether they'll cave in or fight?

 

[TheOverseer714]

They can't trade a resource unless they have the tech that allows them to use it. For example, you can't demand Uranium from someone who hasn't researched Fission. You'd have to gift them the tech and then they will not trade their only source. It would also need to be hooked up. Better to just take the resource by force.

 

[1940LaSalle]

How about this: I make a trade-or-else ultimatum that demands not the resource itself but the city with which it's associated? Would that get around the tech requirement?

 

[TheOverseer714]

No it wouldn't, I've rarely gotten a city by demand, they rarely give away a city, and never give away a resource city. Even though they can't use a resource, they know its there. Ever wonder why they bypass food rich areas and settle tundra or desert? They know Oil, Saltpeter or Uranium will appear there.

 

[capnvonbaron]

I'm 99.999% sure the AI will not ever give away a city unless you are already at war with them and the city you are demanding has little or no value to that civ (like crap tundra cities or 0-culture-1-pop-crapholes). Unless someone else can disprove it, I'd even go as far as saying it's impossible to make a civ part with a city under peacetime.

So, if they have a resource you want, you either trade them for it or take it. In so many cases it has to be the latter. Hell if I'm going to tech a civ up to replaceable parts so that they might trade me their rubber. I'll gladly pile on cavalry until I have the city (and subsequent resource) I need.

Now, if you want to make it unfair, you can demand something that they won't give away (a city works great!) over and over until that civ is "furious" with you. If they have any units in your territory, you can then give them the "leave now or declare war" and generally on difficulty levels above warlord they will declare war no matter how much more powerful you are. Now you get war happiness (which will help to delay rampant war-weariness once you go offensive) and you still get first strike opportunities. Just make sure you don't have any units in their territory or you will get all the AI cheesed at you and not get any war happiness for your own people.

 

[TheHaze]

I have gotten cities by demand in peace times (they caved to my surprise when I tried to get them to declare to me ). But they were useless jungle cities. I am also 99% sure the AI will not give a city with resources, even if it is a 1 pop tundra place.

 

[Sharwood]

I've gotten islands and relatively small cities, especially ones bordering my territory, reasonable often. On TETurkhan's Test of Time I routinely demanded Carthage hand over her European cities without fighting, for example. I've never gotten a large city this way of course, but I have gotten several small ones at once.

 

[Optional]

Just make sure you don't have any units in their territory or you will get all the AI cheesed at you and not get any war happiness for your own people.

Well, if they declare there's no worry here.
It's only when you've got units in their territory and you don't accept their demand to depart, then you will be seen as the responsible party, with all the consequenses you're describing.

Somewhere in the back of my mind sits the idea that it was a bit easier to demand cities in Vanilla, but erm... I'm pretty hazy about that.

 

[1940LaSalle]

For what it may be worth, this whole thread was prompted by the facts that (1) the Chinese have a source of coal very near their border with me, the Germans; (2) the city in which said coal is located is placed such that it results in my republic having a very narrow corridor between a northern and a southern district, and (3) my score it present is approximately triple that of the Chinese. I'll try backing Mao into a corner and we'll see what gives. More to follow.

 

[The Professor]

The other factor when it comes to demands is your relative military strengths. In general, your advisors have to say "compared to them, we have a strong military!" to even have a chance of getting a city or resource (or 5 gold, for that matter) from an AI. And, as eveyone else has stated, if it's their only source, or a city with a resource, there's no chance they'll cave. It may get them mad, but they won't declare on you. The best way to get them to declare is if you get them furious (if they aren't already) and THEN ask them to "leave or declare!" If you check out some of the succession games, they will attempt to trap military units (scouts and workers won't do it), get them furious, and then ask them to leave, in the hopes of getting a war declaration, and the resulting war happiness.

 

[Tone]

For what it may be worth, this whole thread was prompted by the facts that (1) the Chinese have a source of coal very near their border with me, the Germans;

Does that mean that you could place a settler down on the border (in your territory) that would claim the coal from them?

On a general note about demanding things from the AI, the most serious way to make a demand is to renegotiate your peace treaty with them. If you leave without making a deal then you are declaring war but if you want that resource that badly then that is a price worth paying. I very much doubt that they will gve the city up though if it has a strategic resource, even though they don't have the requred tech yet.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Great pointers, Tone. Been awhile since I've been able to do that one, but placing a settler to swipe a border resource is delightfully underhanded I have to also point out that if the city you are founding by has any culture, you may need to rush a library or something to push out your cultural bounds and shove theirs back. If you get a particularly culture-bankrupt civ, I have even managed to culture-swipe the city that resource is in with an appropriate amount of border squeezing. Of course I helped out the process some by surrounding the city with slave workers to prevent the AI from moving in a garrison to keep the people from deposing as the pop grew...

re: Professor & Optional -- trapping units is fun, but I don't know if I've found it to really force their hand in declaring. Seems like most the time if they are furious with you and have any kind of military at all they will declare on you without hesitation whether you are trapping units or not. The only thing it really helps is timing; you can keep a unit in your territory until you have built up and positioned troops to you advantage. Which begs the question: can you station troops in their territory in that event, and still reap war happiness?

On a side note to that idea, holding 18 trespassing workers hostage for several hundred years is a decent way to stifle an AI's infrastructure building, for sure. Been guilty of that one once or twice

 

[Optional]

Which begs the question: can you station troops in their territory in that event, and still reap war happiness?

Certainly, that was what I tried to point out. When you get declared on, you get the war happiness. It doesn't matter if you've got a few units in their territory.
Of course, in the long run, having units in enemy territory leads to war weariness, as you're collecting a war weariness point each interturn you're in enemy territory, but that's something that only builds up over time.

And personally I've never trapped units or insulted a civ for war happiness. It's a bit like cheating, I think. But the AI doesn't need much encouragement to declare on a level like Demigod anyway. They're all cocky bastards there, with a surplus of units. If they've got a wandering force in your territory and you ask them to leave, it's war; it's as simple as that. Unless they're leading a struggling existance because they've been hammered once too often, then they might just want to hang on to their life, and give in.

 

[draggar]

For what it may be worth, this whole thread was prompted by the facts that (1) the Chinese have a source of coal very near their border with me, the Germans; (2) the city in which said coal is located is placed such that it results in my republic having a very narrow corridor between a northern and a southern district, and (3) my score it present is approximately triple that of the Chinese. I'll try backing Mao into a corner and we'll see what gives. More to follow.

If it is directly on the border with your civ, why not just build a city on the border and fill it with cultural buildings (library, university, etc..) and just wait for cultural expansion?

It may annoy the other civ but not enough to hate you plus you'll take a small resource hit with the close city but IMO it's worth the resources.

 

[capnvonbaron]

^^^ read three posts ago ^^^

 

[Spoonwood]

If it is directly on the border with your civ, why not just build a city on the border and fill it with cultural buildings (library, university, etc..) and just wait for cultural expansion?

It may annoy the other civ but not enough to hate you plus you'll take a small resource hit with the close city but IMO it's worth the resources.

That won't work on upper levels where the AIs usually will outbuild you in culture even if you prioritize it.

 

[Exwing17]

Telling people to give you things only rarely works, I find you have to have a huge military might for them to comply!

Best way is to take something by force, i don't know if you all had heard of a minor recent conflict called "The War in Iraq". In Civ terms, the biggest Civs ran out of Oil, and this little one had Oil, so they DOW (no ROP rape though) and took the resource. Althougn the small Civ surrendered, there are Partisans etc.

All the other Civs got angry too as they had trades with the small Civ, but not too angry because they big civ was really big.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Meh, screw the French, thats always my foreign policy (oddly enough, both in Civ and IRL)

 

[Snarkhunter]

Meanwhile, I demanded an isolated city from Mao last night, not really expecting it to work & figuring on warring for it (trying to clean up my continent before the overseas expansion)--when to my surprise he geeked and gave it to me. Very annoying--I had to reposition a bunch of units to make the assault on his other isolated cities more effective & postponed the war half a dozen turns

When I demanded a second city at that point, he spit in my eye, so I decked him & the war continues

kk