Unable to make something of a great opportunity!

[Divaythsarmour]

I've been playing Civilization 4 for over a year and the Warlords expansion for the past 6 months. I find that Prince difficutly seems about right for my present abilities. Sometimes I'm able to realize very good domination victories and have even managed a couple of Julius Caesar scores. But I've been stuck on a game that is baffling me to no end. I'm playing as Ramses on a standard size map in marathon mode. This map is the Great Plains and my capitol is on the only section of coast. I really lucked out in this situation. I have rocks within the cultural boundary of my capitol. I have marble about 7 squares to the right and horses about 8 squares to the left. So when I settle to the left and right, I can occupy the only coastal squares in the game and have some fantastic resources to work with, especially for a leader like Ramses. I was also given Horseback Riding by some villagers at 3640 BC. In spite of all this good luck, I don't seem to be able to take advantage of it. It's almost as if there are too many good things. I keep trying different strategies and eventually lose confidence. In one scenario, I managed to stay even with the leaders in the tech race and probably built 75 % of the worlds wonders, playing a peaceful strategy. But in that case, I'm not building enough units and eventually get slaughtered as I'm putting the finishing touches on the Pentagon. In another scenario, I managed to build 90% of the world's wonders, but fell way behind in the tech race. When I go to trade with Elizabeth or Ghandi and see that they're 8 techs ahead of me as I'm nearing Liberalism, I lose confidence. In another scenario I decided to wage a semi-early war. I only built Stonehenge, the Great Wall and the Oracle before I took advantage of the horses. I invaded my neighbor (Roosevelt) with horse archers and chariots at around 600 BC. I could even capture the pyramids from him. But again, I find myself 6 techs behind before I reach Guilds. I've been reading a lot of articles about city specialization, and I've tried to implement those ideas to the best of my ability. When I read some of the articles on subjects, such as CE vs. SE economies, I can understand the concepts, but realize that I've never purposefully implemented any sort of economy. I would like to save this game for another day, and go try something different, but it has become an obsession for me. I expect to be able to do more with it. Any thoughts?

 

[johncross21]

I find that on the lower levels having a single minded strategy pays off but at higher levels you need a balanced approach

Economies such as Cottage and Commerce Specialisation don't work in all cities. Specialisation depends on rich grasslands which may not suit your starting position. Playing a slightly easier game than usual is the best way to test new economic strategies.

Higher levels also seem less suited to a warmongering strategy (and I do like bashing em')

Finally if you try some other maps - you may find you get inspiration to return to this one.

 

[slaze]

You have an advantage in trade routes where your cities are coastal and can build harbors on trade routes. You're also the only one who can even build the Great Lighthouse, which is kinda funny, as that's probably the first wonder the AI's wouldn't want you to have.

Push trade routes and try and get your cities close to happiness cap. Open borders and build [a strong country].

 

[xanadux]

Try starting with 4 cities ... 2 maximizing production, 2 maximizing commerce. All should have good food resources, and the commerce cities should have plenty of grasslands and even better, flood plains. Instead of building all those wonders, build military units. Use that army to take AIs workers and best cities. Work in cycles. Nearly all military build up before and during war, then peace time upgrade your cities' infrastructures. Choose your friends for the game, and choose your enemies. Trade with friends, conquer enemies.

As far as wonders go, I have a hard time passing up Great Library, but I can do without just about all the rest. Just think of how many axemen you can make instead of building all those early wonders. The other wonder I almost always build is the Hanging Gardens, IMO one of the most undervalued. Extra pop plus extra health = lots of extra hammers from whipping plus if that GE pops, you just got more back than you invested all at once. OH, did I mention whipping? Unless you are food starved, you should use this a lot in most games.

 

[Meanness]

You're building too many wonders.

Since you have stone, consider building the pyramids, and use the first GE for the great library. After that, go to war.

 

[Cam_H]

Divaythsarmour,

Firstly, welcome to CivFanatics! I'm pleased that you've done plenty of reading, and while there's occasionally some questionable advice here (according to KMadCandy, some of it from me! ) in the forums, there's plenty more good and great thoughts.

As to your game, it's a little hard to see the whole picture despite your pretty throrough explanation, but I'll make comment on a few of points;

Coastal

For a non-Financial leader, having the only coastal tiles on the map is of questionable value unless there's a few seafood resources to go along with it. I doubt that you'll ever make up the cost of building The Colossus (not only raw cost, but 'opportunity cost'), while The Great Lighthouse only affects coastal cities.

Technology Trading

I'm not sure where you're at in terms of technology trading with other tribes. You should 'consider' monopoly technologies and look at back-trading towards worthwhile technologies such as;

This is just one mechanism to catch up - it's not always the best path (e.g. if you have Philosophy and Liberalism's still in play), and it's not always possible (e.g. when you're lagging badly with every option), but it's one to consider.

Also note the WFYABTA problem with some leaders ("We fear you are becoming too advanced"), who will stop trading with you after 'x' number of technologies have been acquired by you from other tribes. Therefore it may be worthwhile holding off trades for Ancient Era technologies (unless you're desperate).

Great Plains

As I recall, the Great Plains maps are heavy with Plains and Cows. Pasturised Cows are a valuable food resource, and will allow you to run Cottaged Plains and/or Specialists. At Prince level you should perhaps for the first time consider the value of 'lightbulbing' your Great People - especially your Great Scientists. As you've read a fair amount on this already, I'll leave it at that. With loads of Plains tiles, Civil Service, a valuable technology in any game, becomes even more valuable than usual for this map-type for the irrigation chaining possibilities.

The Great Library

I must agree with xanadux on this one, an Industrial leader with Marble and relatively fewer than normal commercial tiles, I'd be looking at The Great Library too.

Religion

No mention of religion in your game. It can be a valuable mechanism for diplomacy, intelligence gathering, civics, and shrine income. It's not game-breaking by any measure, but as a Spiritual leader with cheap Temples and revolution-free civic switches, it's a bonus.

Post it?

You may want to beat this game all by yourself - which is understandable - but if you'd like to see how other players might approach this map, perhaps you could upload it and see if anyone bites?

Best of luck with it, and again; welcome to the forums.

 

[Divaythsarmour]

I like that idea of uploading the game. It must be simple to do, i.e. copy the game save and then include it as an attachment in a thread reply or new thread?

I went back to the game save where I was building the Pentagon. I knew I was going to get hit pretty hard by my neighbor to the North, Roosevelt. So I staggered my production of factories and kept a steady pace on outputting cavalry, cannons and infantry. As a result, no one attacked. So when I got to Industrialism, I built a half dozen tanks and decided to invade Roosevelt just for grins. Now Roosevelt, had a very large army, made up mostly of grenadiers. I put together a hefty stack of maybe 3 dozen units including cannons, cavalry, infantry and my six tanks. Then I went up to a border city (that was some distance from his larger cities) and I easily took it. His first counter attack was pretty weak. But then his second and third counter attacks were fierce. You know the situation where you hit the turn button and wait 15 minutes as dozens of units attack you. Fortunately, my troops held and I got two great generals. I knew that Roosevelt was in trouble when Mansa decided to make war on him too. I decided that I better get as many cities as I can, beofre Mansa takes them all. When all was said and done, I managed to take maybe 6 cities before FDR agreed to become my vassal. Even so, Ghandi who's to my west, managed to get about 5 techs ahead of me during all of this, and is well on his way in the space program. He's also built every world wonder with the exception of the Eiffel Tower. Somehow I beat him to it. It came in handy too, in terms of pumping up the culture to help me keep the all the cities I just acquired.

It might be possible for me to ultimately win this game in this way, but it's not how I want to do it. I would prefer to get a cultural victory or just get way ahead in the tech race and manage a space race victory. It would be a bonus to not have to fight.

 

[Hero]

Are you working cottages?

 

[Divaythsarmour]

Divaythsarmour,

Firstly, welcome to CivFanatics! I'm pleased that you've done plenty of reading, and while there's occasionally some questionable advice here (according to KMadCandy, some of it from me! ) in the forums, there's plenty more good and great thoughts.

As to your game, it's a little hard to see the whole picture despite your pretty throrough explanation, but I'll make comment on a few of points;

Coastal

For a non-Financial leader, having the only coastal tiles on the map is of questionable value unless there's a few seafood resources to go along with it. I doubt that you'll ever make up the cost of building The Colossus (not only raw cost, but 'opportunity cost'), while The Great Lighthouse only affects coastal cities.

Technology Trading

I'm not sure where you're at in terms of technology trading with other tribes. You should 'consider' monopoly technologies and look at back-trading towards worthwhile technologies such as;

This is just one mechanism to catch up - it's not always the best path (e.g. if you have Philosophy and Liberalism's still in play), and it's not always possible (e.g. when you're lagging badly with every option), but it's one to consider.

Also note the WFYABTA problem with some leaders ("We fear you are becoming too advanced"), who will stop trading with you after 'x' number of technologies have been acquired by you from other tribes. Therefore it may be worthwhile holding off trades for Ancient Era technologies (unless you're desperate).

Great Plains

As I recall, the Great Plains maps are heavy with Plains and Cows. Pasturised Cows are a valuable food resource, and will allow you to run Cottaged Plains and/or Specialists. At Prince level you should perhaps for the first time consider the value of 'lightbulbing' your Great People - especially your Great Scientists. As you've read a fair amount on this already, I'll leave it at that. With loads of Plains tiles, Civil Service, a valuable technology in any game, becomes even more valuable than usual for this map-type for the irrigation chaining possibilities.

The Great Library

I must agree with xanadux on this one, an Industrial leader with Marble and relatively fewer than normal commercial tiles, I'd be looking at The Great Library too.

Religion

No mention of religion in your game. It can be a valuable mechanism for diplomacy, intelligence gathering, civics, and shrine income. It's not game-breaking by any measure, but as a Spiritual leader with cheap Temples and revolution-free civic switches, it's a bonus.

Post it?

You may want to beat this game all by yourself - which is understandable - but if you'd like to see how other players might approach this map, perhaps you could upload it and see if anyone bites?

Best of luck with it, and again; welcome to the forums.

Cam,
Thanks for the welcome. I like the idea of uploading the game. This attachment begins the game at 3640BC, when the villagers gave me horseback riding. I was surprised at such a gift on Prince difficulty and decided to do a save at that point. I had originally started by building a worker, but changed over to a settler. So once the settler is complete, there's a worker that's over half finished.

 

[Divaythsarmour]

Are you working cottages?

Hero,
Probably not enough cottages. I have one city that's on grassy plains and very rich in food and gold. I built three cottages there. I should probably build more cities and more cottages in the vicinity. I'm getting a lot of great ideas from people. Also, I uploaded the game as a response to Cam. Check it out if you want. I think it's a unique map/scenario.
thanks,

 

[futurehermit]

Settle the horse city first and start building war chariots. Settle the marble city second and start building more war chariots. Chop the great wall and pyramids in your capital. Once you have 12 war chariots, go to war with your closest neighbour. Take their capital first. Build reinforcements. Raze the other cities (keep the capital) unless they are very close to you. Once your opponent is eliminated (don't forget to pillage any copper asap if they have it hooked up to avoid spearmen), then beeline literature via alphabet and polytheism. Put your marble to use building the great library and national epic in your highest-food city, preferably the enemy capital. Build the heroic epic in your highest hammer-production city and make it your military city. Then beeline Code of Laws and try and generate a great scientist in your great library city by running many scientist specialists under caste system. Use your great scientist to lightbulb philosophy (don't forget you need meditation). Then run pacificism to speed up your great scientist generation. Research math and civil service. Use your great scientists to lightbulb paper and education. Research compass, calendar, and metal casting but NOT machinery. Lightbulb liberalism, pick nationalism as free tech. Research music, gunpowder, and military tradition. Set research to 0% to build up $. Upgrade your best war chariots to cavalry while building more cavalry and a half dozen catapults (you'll need construction) to tear down cultural defence. Go to war against next closest enemy keeping all cities. Start with the capital and then other cities next.

Victory condition:

1) If you want to go space race then cottage cottage cottage and beeline democracy for the remaining CE civics. You should have enough land to win now. If there are good spots (say that you razed in your first war) send out some settlers. You want the largest empire by 3-4 cities to win comfortably.

2) If you want to go for domination then keep warring. Take out your remaining opponents. I'm assuming there aren't continents since you said you have the only patch of coast. Should be easy to steamroll the remaining AIs once you have cavalry in hand. You should lightbulb chemistry just in case (you'll need printing press--it can be lightbulbed--and engineering) for grenadiers to take out enemy rifles. But otherwise you should be able to win domination pretty easily. Take out enemy capitals followed by their other core cities, vassalizing them once you are able, then move on to the next one. Rinse repeat.

 

[Divaythsarmour]

Settle the horse city first and start building war chariots. Settle the marble city second and start building more war chariots. Chop the great wall and pyramids in your capital. Once you have 12 war chariots, go to war with your closest neighbour. Take their capital first. Build reinforcements. Raze the other cities (keep the capital) unless they are very close to you. Once your opponent is eliminated (don't forget to pillage any copper asap if they have it hooked up to avoid spearmen), then beeline literature via alphabet and polytheism. Put your marble to use building the great library and national epic in your highest-food city, preferably the enemy capital. Build the heroic epic in your highest hammer-production city and make it your military city. Then beeline Code of Laws and try and generate a great scientist in your great library city by running many scientist specialists under caste system. Use your great scientist to lightbulb philosophy (don't forget you need meditation). Then run pacificism to speed up your great scientist generation. Research math and civil service. Use your great scientists to lightbulb paper and education. Research compass, calendar, and metal casting but NOT machinery. Lightbulb liberalism, pick nationalism as free tech. Research music, gunpowder, and military tradition. Set research to 0% to build up $. Upgrade your best war chariots to cavalry while building more cavalry and a half dozen catapults (you'll need construction) to tear down cultural defence. Go to war against next closest enemy keeping all cities. Start with the capital and then other cities next.

Victory condition:

1) If you want to go space race then cottage cottage cottage and beeline democracy for the remaining CE civics. You should have enough land to win now. If there are good spots (say that you razed in your first war) send out some settlers. You want the largest empire by 3-4 cities to win comfortably.

2) If you want to go for domination then keep warring. Take out your remaining opponents. I'm assuming there aren't continents since you said you have the only patch of coast. Should be easy to steamroll the remaining AIs once you have cavalry in hand. You should lightbulb chemistry just in case (you'll need printing press--it can be lightbulbed--and engineering) for grenadiers to take out enemy rifles. But otherwise you should be able to win domination pretty easily. Take out enemy capitals followed by their other core cities, vassalizing them once you are able, then move on to the next one. Rinse repeat.

Futurehermit,
I've read a lot of your posts. It's an honor indeed. I intend to do my best to carry out your plan. I'm curious about not researching machinery. Is it basically not necessary?

 

[Cam_H]

Machinery will put Printing Press before many other tech's including Liberalism in terms of Great Scientist lightbulbs.

 

[Divaythsarmour]

Machinery will put Printing Press before many other tech's including Liberalism in terms of Great Scientist lightbulbs.

Just to make sure I understand, if you have machinery, and you lightbulb great scientists, you'll get Priniting Press before you get Liberalism etc..?

 

[futurehermit]

Yes, that's exactly right. You need to avoid machinery in order to have liberalism available for lightbulbing or else it will prefer printing press and others.

Of course you trade for machinery after lightbulbing liberalism so it's only temporarily that you avoid it.

Alternatively, you can research or even lightbulb machinery, say if you want maces or xbows, but then you will have to self-research liberalism. I will often self-research liberalism at levels below emperor because the AI doesn't tech fast enough that I can trade for compass, calendar, and metal casting. But it just depends on what you want to do and what suits your situation, what will work out fastest, etc.

 

[Divaythsarmour]

Futurehermit,
I've read a lot of your posts. It's an honor indeed. I intend to do my best to carry out your plan. I'm curious about not researching machinery. Is it basically not necessary?

Yes, that's exactly right. You need to avoid machinery in order to have liberalism available for lightbulbing or else it will prefer printing press and others.

Of course you trade for machinery after lightbulbing liberalism so it's only temporarily that you avoid it.

Alternatively, you can research or even lightbulb machinery, say if you want maces or xbows, but then you will have to self-research liberalism. I will often self-research liberalism at levels below emperor because the AI doesn't tech fast enough that I can trade for compass, calendar, and metal casting. But it just depends on what you want to do and what suits your situation, what will work out fastest, etc.

Futurehermit,
Well I didn't play it exactly as you had suggested, but I did accomplish a couple of the components of your plan. I settled the horse city first and built Stonehenge. I settled the marble city next (right on top of the marble) and built the Oracle and then the Parthenon. I chose metal casting as my free technology. I was able to build the Great Wall and the Pyramids in my capitol. It wasn't necessary to build settlers for the fourth and fifth cities as Atlanta (Roosevelt) turned over on it's own and then I put together a stack of chariots, swordsmen and horse archers to take a heavily defended barbarian city (on top of a hill of copper). At some point during that excitement I was able to make a few tech trades with Gandhi that helped to keep me competitive in the tech race, while I was getting ready to build the Great Library. I also popped a Great Prophet from my Stonehenge city, which I used to build the Kashivishwanath. That helped to get my research back up to 80% with 5 cities. I also managed to build the Hanging Gardens in the same city as the Wall and the Pyramids. (I'm hoping to pop some future Great Engineers from there). Then to my astonishment a Great Engineer popped from the marble city, so I used him to build the Great Library in Atlanta, which seemed very well suited for a Great Person Farm (i.e. on a river, plenty of flood plain, 2 nearby hills). Meanwhile back in my horse city, I built both the Colussus and the Great Lighthouse. So I knew that eventually someone was going to attack, with all of these Wonders and not so many troops. I had a feeling it was going to be Roosevelt as he was still mad about the loss of Atlanta. So I built a wall in Atlanta and started pumping out longbowmen one after another. And sure enough, just one turn before I get Liberalism, he attacks me with 3 stacks of axmen, crossbowmen and catapults. Even Brennus (decided to declare war against me - although he never sent a singel unit). Roosevelt didn't get his money's worth there. I chose Nationalism as my free tech and began building the Taj Mahal to get the free golden age. I was hoping the war with Roosevelt would be over before my golden age started, as I prefer to build banks and universities with the extra hammers. Sure enough, Atlanta held and eventually Roosevelt and his friend Brennus gave me a little bit of gold. I popped a Great General which I used to create a war academy in my capitol. I bolstered it further with the Heroic Epic. So by the time I got to Military Tradition, I was able to pump out cavalry every 4 turns (in marathon mode). As often happens, I look up to see that it's almost midnight and it's time to shut down again.

My Analysis: I know that in terms of scoring and potential for quick world domination, my giving in to the temptation to build wonders probably stifled any chances that I had. Another thing is that I went ahead and traded some of my more advanced techs with allies to get caught up with some of the older techs, thus giving up my brief monopoly on cavalry. But then again, I wasn't that far ahead on techs anyway, and they would have eventually gotten it. Although I can pump a lot of cavalry from my capitol, I don't think I'm prepared to conquer the world yet. But I'm well positioned to take the remainder of Roosevelt's cities, so I could be the largest country very soon. I don't think that my choice of city for building the Great Library was as good as it could have been. Running Caste System, and 3 scientist specialist, I only managed to pop the one great scientist. And for some reason, I later popped a Great Artist (which was way against the odds). I won't hold that against the game, as it had given me a Great Engineer earlier from the Oracle and Parthenon city. This "little run" utilizing caste system and the Great Library has been the most succesfull strategy yet on this map. Obviously, a different decision here and there can change the outcome dramatically. That's what I love about this game. I might try your idea of taking Roosevelt's capitol early in the game. I might also try timing the completion of the Taj Mahall for after I get Militray Tradition, so that I can pump out some serious cavalry. I suppose those banks and universities can always be built after a world war.