Undocumented Features need to be Documented

[Bill Bisco]

What undocumented features do you think are the most confusing to new players?

This is technically the wrong question. The Civilopedia should document all features. I shouldn't have to open up Python to figure out how a mechanic works. I will list some (there are many) undoumented features. I don't know if this will make any difference but I'll list it anway.

1. Mining vs. Bronzeworking vs. Ironworking vs. Mithril Working

Every other resource in the game, as soon as you research the appropriate tech, you can work that resource and transfer it to your capital. Yet, these mining techs break that rule; copper and iron won't show up in your capital even if you work the tile and have a road to it unless you have an additional tech (bronze working and ironworking).

Yet, you break your own pattern with Mithril Working after Ironworking. One might think that they needed Mithril Weapons to take advantage of the Mithril in a territory.

If you're going to make exceptions that you think are cool, then you need to state those exceptions on the techs themselves.

2. Summoning Hyborem/Infernal Civilization

HOW DO I SUMMON HYBOREM! NOTHING IN THE PEDIA TELLS ME HOW!

3. Infernal Mechanics

What does it mean that the infernals enter the world? What do they start with?

You should state that infernals get an Elder Council, Forge, Mage Guild, etc. in every city and that they spread AV to every city they capture. Knowing this influences my decisions whether to go for Infernals or not

4. Mercurian Mechanics

What does it mean that the Mercurians enter the world? What do they start with?

5. Manes/Angel Mechanics

Oh, adepts with entropy or death spells, die and become manes. That'd be nice to know. I sure wish that it was in the Civilopedia so that I could take advantage of it!

Wow, you mean that RoK, Empy, Order units that die get reborn as angels! That'd be nice to know in the Civilopedia!

6. FoL Mechanics

Oh, adopting FoL as my State Religion has a 1% of turning my forests into ancient forests that will give me an extra food?! That would really affect my choices whether to research that religion or not or whether I want to chop down so many trees earlier on!

7. Temple of the Hand

Wow, making this temple increases production in the tiles around my city! That'd be nice to know in the Pedia!

8. Balseraph Puppets

Wow, every Balseraph Mage gets to summon a puppet. This might influence me to go to the magic route. This sure would be nice to know in the pedia!!

9. Adaptive Trait

Exactly which trait is the adaptive trait hmm? Exactly which trait gets replaced?

10. Worldspells not documented

Ex: How long does Arcane Lacuna, Stasis, etc. last? Hmm?? That's really important to know for timing!

11. How do I use Seven Pines?

Oh, I have to have a unit standing on it? not merely have a road connecting to it. And the button won't appear unless I'm in a war?

Document that I have to physically have a unit standing there please.

12. Dwarven Vault

The Dwarven Vault needs to say what each level of Gold Per City gives, not merely just listing the tiers.

13. AC Counter not Explained

The AC counter needs to list everything that raises it and everything that lowers it. Not some general fluff about how or why you should avoid it or how you think its an apocalyptic battle

14. How am I supposed to know that Elven Workers can work tiles in forests without chopping forests! The pedia says nothing! I might assume that capturing an Elf, or gifting an elf might allow them to build improvements without forests.

15. Beasts of Agares need to state exactly how many turns they city will revolt after building them, not some vague statement.

16. Kuriorates

Maybe it should be listed directly in front of the Kuriorate Civilization Entry that they have a weird mechanic that limits their number of cities. Maybe I should know about settlements in the main entry of Kurios rather than building a 4th city and wondering what the heck it means by settlement.

Maybe there should be a listing of how many main cities the Kuriorates are allowed to have per map size. Hmm?

17. Can't build Elder Councils, Libraries, Adepts, things with guns etc.

Yeah, you know, knowing what a Civ arbitrarily can't do is important when picking a Civ. I shouldn't have to start a game with a Civ to find out what it arbitrarily can't do.

...and many others

To Conclude: This is a Strategy game; not an RPG. You need to separate Fluff From Crunch. I shouldn't need to read background to have a vague idea of what building the unit or building does. You need to state what civilizations do and what the unique mechanics do. It is childish and insulting to have hidden features in a strategy game. The Pedia is supposed to be a source of truth to learn about the game; Utilize it please.

 

[Kael]

This is technically the wrong question. The Civilopedia should document all features. I shouldn't have to open up Python to figure out how a mechanic works. I will list some (there are many) undoumented features. I don't know if this will make any difference but I'll list it anway.

Prioritization is very important. Its nice to say that everything should be documented, but I am a human so its important that I concentrate on the most important issues first. You had mentioned that there were undocumentred features, I just want to know what those are so they can get updated.

Please keep in mind that this is a fan project created for you to play for free. I appreciate your feedback, but please try to dial down the snark. You dont need to try to make me feel stupid to make your point.

1. Mining vs. Bronzeworking vs. Ironworking vs. Mithril Working

Every other resource in the game, as soon as you research the appropriate tech, you can work that resource and transfer it to your capital. Yet, these mining techs break that rule; copper and iron won't show up in your capital even if you work the tile and have a road to it unless you have an additional tech (bronze working and ironworking).

Yet, you break your own pattern with Mithril Working after Ironworking. One might think that they needed Mithril Weapons to take advantage of the Mithril in a territory.

If you're going to make exceptions that you think are cool, then you need to state those exceptions on the techs themselves.

This is a native Civ4 thing. Its possible in that game to have bonuses revealed and usable with different techs too. But it does cause weapon confusion form people that dont understand how it works. I will see if I can clarify.

There is no direct tech requirement to create weapons. Only a bonus requirement, which is why nothing is documented on the tech.

2. Summoning Hyborem/Infernal Civilization

HOW DO I SUMMON HYBOREM! NOTHING IN THE PEDIA TELLS ME HOW!

The Infernal pedia entry does.

3. Infernal Mechanics

What does it mean that the infernals enter the world? What do they start with?

You should state that infernals get an Elder Council, Forge, Mage Guild, etc. in every city and that they spread AV to every city they capture. Knowing this influences my decisions whether to go for Infernals or not

This would be good to document, I'll get it added.

4. Mercurian Mechanics

What does it mean that the Mercurians enter the world? What do they start with?

What it means is detailed on the mercurian gate wonder (their may be a better place for it on the mercurian civ entry). We could add their starting units. Note that starting units arent documented for any civ in FfH or Civ4.

5. Manes/Angel Mechanics

Oh, adepts with entropy or death spells, die and become manes. That'd be nice to know. I sure wish that it was in the Civilopedia so that I could take advantage of it!

Wow, you mean that RoK, Empy, Order units that die get reborn as angels! That'd be nice to know in the Civilopedia!

This is fair and should be added under the Mane and Angel entries.

6. FoL Mechanics

Oh, adopting FoL as my State Religion has a 1% of turning my forests into ancient forests that will give me an extra food?! That would really affect my choices whether to research that religion or not or whether I want to chop down so many trees earlier on!

Yeap this should be added.

7. Temple of the Hand

Wow, making this temple increases production in the tiles around my city! That'd be nice to know in the Pedia!

Yeah I'll add a note about the Illian and Malakin bonuses from snow and desert tiles and the Temple of the Hands snow effect.

8. Balseraph Puppets

Wow, every Balseraph Mage gets to summon a puppet. This might influence me to go to the magic route. This sure would be nice to know in the pedia!!

Yeap, this should be mentioned in the Balseraph pedia entry.

9. Adaptive Trait

Exactly which trait is the adaptive trait hmm? Exactly which trait gets replaced?

Yeah, this may require a little hoop jumping to get in because of how adaptive works, but it should be doable.

10. Worldspells not documented

Ex: How long does Arcane Lacuna, Stasis, etc. last? Hmm?? That's really important to know for timing!

Thats hard to document because it depends on the game.

11. How do I use Seven Pines?

Oh, I have to have a unit standing on it? not merely have a road connecting to it. And the button won't appear unless I'm in a war?

Document that I have to physically have a unit standing there please.

K, I'll add a note.

12. Dwarven Vault

The Dwarven Vault needs to say what each level of Gold Per City gives, not merely just listing the tiers.

Yeap, you are right.

13. AC Counter not Explained

The AC counter needs to list everything that raises it and everything that lowers it. Not some general fluff about how or why you should avoid it or how you think its an apocalyptic battle

I dont see much value in a long list of every thing that effects the armageddon counter. I like the examples that are listed in the pedia both for it raising, and for lowering it. But I dont think Im going to try to include an exhaustive list of everything that impacts it.

14. How am I supposed to know that Elven Workers can work tiles in forests without chopping forests! The pedia says nothing! I might assume that capturing an Elf, or gifting an elf might allow them to build improvements without forests.

Yeap, that should definitely be included in the civs entries (it used to be included in the elven worker entry before that unit was cut).

15. Beasts of Agares need to state exactly how many turns they city will revolt after building them, not some vague statement.

Yeap, I'll add it.

16. Kuriorates

Maybe it should be listed directly in front of the Kuriorate Civilization Entry that they have a weird mechanic that limits their number of cities. Maybe I should know about settlements in the main entry of Kurios rather than building a 4th city and wondering what the heck it means by settlement.

Maybe there should be a listing of how many main cities the Kuriorates are allowed to have per map size. Hmm?

Its already listed int he first line of the pedia Kuriotate pedia entry. Though I will add a link to the settlement description and incldue the city limit at each map size in that description.

17. Can't build Elder Councils, Libraries, Adepts, things with guns etc.

Yeah, you know, knowing what a Civ arbitrarily can't do is important when picking a Civ. I shouldn't have to start a game with a Civ to find out what it arbitrarily can't do.

...and many others

Yeap, this is fair. I wsee what can be done to update it.

To Conclude: This is a Strategy game; not an RPG. You need to separate Fluff From Crunch. I shouldn't need to read background to have a vague idea of what building the unit or building does. You need to state what civilizations do and what the unique mechanics do. It is childish and insulting to have hidden features in a strategy game. The Pedia is supposed to be a source of truth to learn about the game; Utilize it please.

The pedia has over 1 million words in it. I have spent a great deal of time documenting the game, as have others. There are improvements to be made, and I appreciate your help in finding those areas. But implying that the pedia isnt being used, or that we are childish and insulting is a disservice to all the work that has been done.

 

[mimic]

Eh it's mostly common sense you can figure all this out by using your brain and thinking for a few seconds, writing all that stuff is time consuming when so much else could be be worked on. It's easy to point your finger and say

it is childish and insulting to have hidden features in a strategy game. The Pedia is supposed to be a source of truth to learn about the game; Utilize it please.

But this is a free mod anyway you should Appreciate that you can even do all this stuff in the first place....

 

[Tasunke]

Part of the fun for me, back in fire, was to figure out how everything worked. And a few play-throughs usually nets you all you need to know.

 

[DarkxL0rd]

Is it just me, or is every thread Bisco starts extremely critical of some feature in the game. "is there any reason to be anything but amurites, elves, everyone sux at their supposed job."

just play the game man. were all happy that you notice things that you don't deem fair, or you think overpowered. just please tone it down so you don't sound like such a prick.

 

[Jabie]

Don't forget the hints as a means of player education. A new player needn't necessarily need to know that having two mana nodes of the same type automatically gives new adepts the Tier one spell of that type, but that's the kind of tip which would make a good hint.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

Yes Kael stop being childish and give me more free stuff!!!!! or I am going to tell my mama on you..!! 5 start for this thread

 

[FireBlaze]

But I enjoy learning new things about the game. I've been playing for awhile and I still don't know everything (Given that I don't play much or code, but still!)

 

[arcticnightwolf]

12. Dwarven Vault

The Dwarven Vault needs to say what each level of Gold Per City gives, not merely just listing the tiers.

I believe i saw this in pedia ...

 

[xienwolf]

For #17, undocumented "cannot build/train" stuff, can the OP check out Fall Further's enhancements to the Dawn of Man screen and Civilization Mouseover information in the Pedia/Play Now screens? If those are sufficient for that gripe, the Kael has something he can easily plunder to auto-parse the information. If not, maybe you can illuminate ways to do it better in your opinion?

 

[Tasunke]

"I have remorse, I just can't remember where I placed it right now." -> part of the babble that comes out of the brain, sounds like a funny quote.

 

[Castar]

I dont see much value in a long list of every thing that effects the armageddon counter. I like the examples that are listed in the pedia both for it raising, and for lowering it. But I dont think Im going to try to include an exhaustive list of everything that impacts it.

Listing everything that might influence the AC would indeed be overkill and rather pointless (as it is quite obvious: any aggressive act = raise, lower = very hard). What would be very nice is if every major event tied to the AC was listed. When you're new to the game and get the AC to 30 for the first time, you're in for quite a surprise as you're population will now vanish! The textboxes that appear with these events, while very flavorful, do not make it very clear that this happened because the AC just hit 30. I also still don't know when most of the horsemen spawn. I think I've seen two, in a game where I got the AC to 60... Can't remember who they were... Anyways, it'd be nice to know

 

[Bill Bisco]

For #17, undocumented "cannot build/train" stuff, can the OP check out Fall Further's enhancements to the Dawn of Man screen and Civilization Mouseover information in the Pedia/Play Now screens? If those are sufficient for that gripe, the Kael has something he can easily plunder to auto-parse the information. If not, maybe you can illuminate ways to do it better in your opinion?

FF's handling of "Cannot Train ......" and "Cannot Build ......" is very good for the Civilization screens and the Play Now Screens. However, I would put "Cannot Train" and "Cannot Build" above Unique units because there's often so many and they're often not very different. Secondly, the Cannot build information affects the game more.

 

[Emptiness]

I agree with Bill Bisco in spirit, that the Civilopedia should eventually document all features - or at least as much as possible. The mod is still in the debugging phase, however. Until the bugs are worked out and everything is set is stone it's difficult to document things well without running the risk of wasted effort (by documenting things that end up changing and then must be redocumented).

-------------

When you're new to the game and get the AC to 30 for the first time, you're in for quite a surprise as you're population will now vanish!

That's just good clean fun, right there. We shouldn't spoil all the surprises...

-------------

Don't forget the hints as a means of player education. A new player needn't necessarily need to know that having two mana nodes of the same type automatically gives new adepts the Tier one spell of that type, but that's the kind of tip which would make a good hint.

Yeah, the hints are in need of a complete overhaul. That should probably wait until most of the debugging is done, though.

 

[Nor'easter]

I remember in much earlier versions of the mod (definitely pre-BtS), when you moused over units or buildings in the 'pedia red text appeared saying something like "not buildable by your civilization." Don't know how easy it would be to bring that back, but might be useful for new players in particular.

 

[Bootsiuv]

@Bill Bisco

You could always volunteer your time to help document these things instead of sounding like a know-it-all smartass.

I like your threads, as they often lead to interesting discussions, and you seem like a smart person, but you very often come across sounding cocky and unappreciative, and that irks me ever so slightly....and I haven't volunteered ANY of my time for this mod, so think about how it sounds to someone who has spent literally hundreds of man hours on the thing...

 

[Bill Bisco]

Snark level dialed down

The Infernal pedia entry does.

Alright my bad. I glazed over the block of text thinking it was all fluff, and didn't read the first line.

Here's the thing though: You research a tech to get the features of that tech. Hyborem coming into the world is a feature of Infernal Pact. One should not have to open the Pedia and read the Infernal Civilization text to find that out.

What it means is detailed on the mercurian gate wonder (their may be a better place for it on the mercurian civ entry). We could add their starting units. Note that starting units arent documented for any civ in FfH or Civ4.

Mercurian starting units are important because you don't start out as Mercurians. BTS should document that Aggressive civs start with a scout and non-aggressive civs start with a Warrior.

Thats hard to document because it depends on the game.

Not really. Stasis on Marathon lasts a certain # of turns. Stasis on Epic lasts a certain # of turns. Etc.

I dont see much value in a long list of every thing that effects the armageddon counter. I like the examples that are listed in the pedia both for it raising, and for lowering it. But I dont think Im going to try to include an exhaustive list of everything that impacts it.

You don't have to list every event that raises the AC counter or every unit that raises the AC counter, just the specific general mechanics that raise or lower it. Less flavor text, more direct useful information so that one doesn't need to go on the forums.

Also, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be happy to write that entry if the Dev Team is pressed for time.

Its already listed int he first line of the pedia Kuriotate pedia entry. Though I will add a link to the settlement description and incldue the city limit at each map size in that description.

That would be excellent

The pedia has over 1 million words in it. I have spent a great deal of time documenting the game, as have others. There are improvements to be made, and I appreciate your help in finding those areas. But implying that the pedia isnt being used, or that we are childish and insulting is a disservice to all the work that has been done.

Most (or at least a large %) of the Pedia is flavor text and has no bearing on the game And I'm sure you put a lot of work into it. One more thing, Religions need to state on the Techs and while researching them what Alignment they will change you to.

Peace,
Bill

 

[Dumanios]

This is technically the wrong question. The Civilopedia should document all features. I shouldn't have to open up Python to figure out how a mechanic works. I will list some (there are many) undoumented features. I don't know if this will make any difference but I'll list it anway.

1. Mining vs. Bronzeworking vs. Ironworking vs. Mithril Working

Every other resource in the game, as soon as you research the appropriate tech, you can work that resource and transfer it to your capital. Yet, these mining techs break that rule; copper and iron won't show up in your capital even if you work the tile and have a road to it unless you have an additional tech (bronze working and ironworking).

Yet, you break your own pattern with Mithril Working after Ironworking. One might think that they needed Mithril Weapons to take advantage of the Mithril in a territory.

If you're going to make exceptions that you think are cool, then you need to state those exceptions on the techs themselves.

2. Summoning Hyborem/Infernal Civilization

HOW DO I SUMMON HYBOREM! NOTHING IN THE PEDIA TELLS ME HOW!Research Infernal Pact(Of Course!)

3. Infernal Mechanics

What does it mean that the infernals enter the world? What do they start with?

You should state that infernals get an Elder Council, Forge, Mage Guild, etc. in every city and that they spread AV to every city they capture. Knowing this influences my decisions whether to go for Infernals or notThey star with 2 Champs,A few Archers,A Settler and Hyborem

4. Mercurian Mechanics

What does it mean that the Mercurians enter the world? What do they start with?

5. Manes/Angel Mechanics

Oh, adepts with entropy or death spells, die and become manes. That'd be nice to know. I sure wish that it was in the Civilopedia so that I could take advantage of it!Actually,If a unit that worships the Ashen Veil,OO or CoE dies,he becomes a Mane.

Wow, you mean that RoK, Empy, Order units that die get reborn as angels! That'd be nice to know in the Civilopedia!

6. FoL Mechanics

Oh, adopting FoL as my State Religion has a 1% of turning my forests into ancient forests that will give me an extra food?! That would really affect my choices whether to research that religion or not or whether I want to chop down so many trees earlier on!I think it is more than 1%

7. Temple of the Hand

Wow, making this temple increases production in the tiles around my city! That'd be nice to know in the Pedia!They also turn every tile in the Fat Cross into Snow tiles.

8. Balseraph Puppets

Wow, every Balseraph Mage gets to summon a puppet. This might influence me to go to the magic route. This sure would be nice to know in the pedia!!If you played the older versions,you'll know that the Balserephs has the Puppeteer UU.

9. Adaptive Trait

Exactly which trait is the adaptive trait hmm? Exactly which trait gets replaced?For Cassiel,It is the Philosophical trait.

10. Worldspells not documented

Ex: How long does Arcane Lacuna, Stasis, etc. last? Hmm?? That's really important to know for timing!I believe it says 20 Turns for Stasis if you mouse over the spell,I didn't know that Arcane Lacuna had a Time limit.

11. How do I use Seven Pines?

Oh, I have to have a unit standing on it? not merely have a road connecting to it. And the button won't appear unless I'm in a war?

Document that I have to physically have a unit standing there please.

12. Dwarven Vault

The Dwarven Vault needs to say what each level of Gold Per City gives, not merely just listing the tiers.

13. AC Counter not Explained

The AC counter needs to list everything that raises it and everything that lowers it. Not some general fluff about how or why you should avoid it or how you think its an apocalyptic battleAt 10 you get a Warning,At 40 you get the Blight the gives tons of sickness,between 70 and 95 come the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse and the Avatar of Wrath and at 100 comes the Apocalypse.

14. How am I supposed to know that Elven Workers can work tiles in forests without chopping forests! The pedia says nothing! I might assume that capturing an Elf, or gifting an elf might allow them to build improvements without forests.I be;lieve it says this in the entrys of the Ljos/Svarts.

15. Beasts of Agares need to state exactly how many turns they city will revolt after building them, not some vague statement.

16. Kuriorates

Maybe it should be listed directly in front of the Kuriorate Civilization Entry that they have a weird mechanic that limits their number of cities. Maybe I should know about settlements in the main entry of Kurios rather than building a 4th city and wondering what the heck it means by settlement.

Maybe there should be a listing of how many main cities the Kuriorates are allowed to have per map size. Hmm?Read the traits descriptions that Cardith has,it would help you.

17. Can't build Elder Councils, Libraries, Adepts, things with guns etc.

Yeah, you know, knowing what a Civ arbitrarily can't do is important when picking a Civ. I shouldn't have to start a game with a Civ to find out what it arbitrarily can't do.

...and many others

To Conclude: This is a Strategy game; not an RPG. You need to separate Fluff From Crunch. I shouldn't need to read background to have a vague idea of what building the unit or building does. You need to state what civilizations do and what the unique mechanics do. It is childish and insulting to have hidden features in a strategy game. The Pedia is supposed to be a source of truth to learn about the game; Utilize it please.

Here is your help.

 

[TC01]

Dumanios: he knows all of this. (Or at least, most of it). He is saying that this should be documented so people have access to the information who are knew to FFH 2. He's not asking "how to do this"...

 

[Breunor]

Obviously there is a lot of information in the old Xienwolf manual that isn't in the Civiliopedia; but I think having the manual is also very useful. (For example, how exactly does the wonder spell exactly work). But since everyone who plays FfH has to have downloaded it, I think it is fine to have this manual on the side.

I think that if we want to be useful, it would be important to prioritize here; clearly the Civiliopedia can be improved, but in my very subjectibve opinion, I would 100 times rather Kael spend his time on bugs, improvements, merges, etc. So if time is spent on updating the civilopedia, lets make it as efficient as possible.


Best wishes,

Breunor