UNGY-03 The Gods of the Aztec

It's not 100% success do we would need at least 2 spies. Not worth it IMO.
I would use these espionage points to steal some cheap techs from him after peace (archery?)
I assume we want to get machinery for peace when available.
 
Might be okay just trading for machinery as well (with philosophy), but I'd have to look at the tech screen first. If so we can simply capitulate SB instead. He's well-liked due to the religion spread and it will add to happiness and power. He can keep some of the horsehockey cities.

Our army is large, we must be amongst the top civs in power so we might want to consider attacking Boudica after SB for even more land. She's technologically backwards IIRC so our army should be able to handle her.
 
Still not convinced about not using spies. Though I forgot those missions got more expensive in 3.17...

About capitulating SB: We should just take the cities between ours and then only go as far as needed and capitulate him asap I think. He'll also make a nice buffer to the east.

I agree with probabely going after boudica. When you don't build spies, atropos, put EPs into her so we see her demos. We just should make sure we're not declaring on buddhists all the time. We'll get massive diplo hits...
 
Yeah, that was the idea--trading for feudalism with philosophy. Getting through monarchy (and part-researching feudalism) shouldn't be difficult with pillage/city capture gold.

Other good news is that the 2 civs with philosophy are the same 2 that have CS so we'll most likely be able to trade for CS too.
 
I detest spies with the bitter hatred of a thousand suns. Chances of any being built during my turnset are slim to nil.

Got it.
 
I detest spies with the bitter hatred of a thousand suns. Chances of any being built during my turnset are slim to nil.

Got it.

Really? I like spies in later stages of the game, when you have much more production. Anyway, I am happy we will not build spies for this war.

I agree With Rusten's tech plan. Self research Monarchy (4 turns at 100% so make sure to pillage enough cottages)
Bulb philosophy and trade it if possible for:
Feudalism (1st priority)
Civil Service
Machinery
 
Turn 0: Monarchy due in 4 at max research. We have two pretty decent stacks converging on the capital and one surpassingly wimpy stack cooling its heels outside Mound City. I see our cities have been whipped into the ground, which is good. Why take care of your own cities when you can take someone else's instead, am I right? Note that SITTING BULL HAS ENGINEERING IN 12, which pretty much means the limit of our offensive unless we have disconnected iron by then. I quickly run over which of his cities might be of use: Cahokia, Spiro, Mesa Verde, Chinook. We are unlikely to get all of those in 12 turns but his research will fall as we take cities. Mound City is of quite limited use since it only has sheep, iron and a bunch of plains, but it's on our path so I might go for it. We'll see how things go. Note that, contrary to previous reports, Wang Kong and Boudica are still at war with Hammurabi, which confuses me so much that I go back and check I have the right save. AD 580, right? Do the donkey work of checking leaders and cities for any info. Qin is bribable but we have nothing to do it with now or for the foreseeable future. All is admirable in the cities. Hit enter.
Turn 1: IT, a spearman attacks a full health WE and wins. Oh, well. QIN CONVERTS TO TAOISM.



I note that he has knights. It is indeed a harsh and cruel world. Make note to check him for enough on his hands every turn from now on. What happened to Minoan's rice? Did someone pillage it or something? WE beats spear at 95% and gets us a GG. This must be attached to a jag in due course as per the rules, so I move it to the one currently besieging Mound City. Minoan can whip a WE, cool. Rusten is going to love our happiness levels when he takes over.


Turn 2: Sury cancels his cow + gold for copper deal. Great. The much-whipped Tlatelolco is now unhappy, so I need a substitute. Some cats attack, all retreat, but a HA dies to a WE. I cannot afford the units to mop up properly – we are very thin on defense. But I nab one cat and a dog soldier that wondered too close to an SOD. Caco Canyon is really weak, I have to send reinforcements there. Reread Silver's post and realize that I missed the part about trading for MC. Do so. We are all but out of gold and I have had no chance to pillage due to the lack of cottages along the attack route. Trade Sury copper for gold , less than perfect but we need happiness quite badly. 0% science. Renegotiate deal with Zara to get an extra 1 gpt, we're rich! Ahem. I fire one scientist in capital; we can't get monarchy in time for bulb anyway. Hire some others.
Turn 3: Lose a cat to an xbow after another weakened our stack-guarding elephant. A cottage is destroyed by spies. Scream obscenities at the screen as the game crashes. Replay from autosave. For some reason the random seed is not preserved (maybe I did some things in a different order? not sure) and some combats turn out better for us. Note that I moved a stack differently, replay again. Random seed turns out correctly (I.e. worse). A WE dies near Mound City to an x-bow attack, I don't remember that. Well, I'm not replaying again for whatever it was.
Turn 4: SB inexplicably decides to send a whole bunch of units, mostly horse archers, against our elephants near Mound City. Most die but one crossbow takes out an elephant. He gets a GG which he spends on a HA in Mound City. Gotta love the AI. Start bombarding SB capital. Move all units away from Mound City; they are doing nothing but costing us maintenance. I'm not sure why they were there in the first place as they were nothing like enough to take the city. Lightbulb Philosophy.
Turn 5: I think I may have missed a turn somewhere in the confusion over replaying; anyway, bombardment of capital complete and troops ready to move. I am not delighted about the odds but they will only get worse as he is whipping units. Cat goes in, withdraws at 8%. That was good luck (though in fairness I've lost severely against the odds in this turnset). Cat dies at 22%. Cat dies at 41%. Cat withdraws at 65%. Cat dies at 82%. Payback, I guess. WE wins at 97%. WE wins at 97%. WE wins at 99%. WE wins at 99.9%. Axe wins at 95%. Axe wins at 88%. Jag wins at 95%. Axe wins at 99%. Axe wins at 96%. Axe wins at 99%



Finally some good news. Some bad news, too: I notice that one of the things lost in the crash was the espionage change to Boudica. Correct this. Many apologies. Also, how strict were we being in whipping cities down? I think I left Chaco for a turn after it came out of revolt. Make amends by whipping a temple without waiting a turn.

I take a break at this point, partly because those five turns (six?) took over two hours and partly because I want advice on which cities to go for. My thinking is: try to get Mound City and Spiro as primary targets. If he won't capitulate, take and raze Poverty Point, which in this game deserves its name. Snaketown has nothing, Mesa Verde would be culture-squeezed to death and Chinook is too far away. Thoughts?
 

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I guess we can safely forget about liberalism--QSH is already researching education. That's not a big problem though, we don't need the tech for anything given our set up. It would only hurt to target it and not get it. I don't understand how he's researching this fast though, he must have a very strong capital. The whipping down thing isn't a big deal--mostly flavour. It's not a big issue if you forget it temporarily.

I agree with taking Spiro instead of Poverty Point. The latter should be razed indeed and I think Mound City should be too. We can take Mound city with the units currently chilling in Aztec territory. I'd move the stack east of Tenochtitlan onto Mound City soon and start bombarding the defenses. There's a bunch of WEs about to get completed and they'll get there once the defenses are down. Taking the city should be easy. We're going to have to start growing our cities now and step down on whipping in order to be big enough population-wise for SB to capitulate.

I think we should take Mesa Verde as well. The iron is in the first ring so it should be doable claiming it culturally. Taking Chinook is going to take a lot of time so I think we should leave him with that 1 and accept a capitulation at that point, I'd rather get started on Boudica, especially seeing as liberalism is out of reach.

In general I think we have enough units now (if not too many) so I suggest switching focus to infrastructure while waiting for macemen to get unlocked. Also, as mentioned above somewhere we need more population for capitulating SB.
 
WK has 6 gpt available btw--please sell him our surplus sugar. If we'd agree on getting infrastructure next monotheism should be researched and OR adopted too.
 
That stack was sitting there for most of the turn. I moved it out because it was too weak to take the city and was at that point heavily injured. Also, we were near bankruptcy and the unit supply did not help. I will move it back shortly.

We might want to resettle a city between Mound and Poverty but for the time being razing definitely seems the way to go, especially given the state of our finances.
 
Looking good. The stack near teno should be able to capture mound city. Also capture spiro and raze poverty point IMO. This should be doable. Not sure about mesa verde though.

We have surplus sugar, rice, copper, ivory. gold is available, so let's sell those resources.

Our GG jag is 3 xp short of uber medi - nice!

We can trade philo for machinery and tech CS for maces. We can probabely get started on boudica before maces. Any plans after that? I guess we should keep up warring as we'll just unlock better units.

Also agree with ignoring lib. No real use imo and I see no chance to win it anyway with the next GS due in 49 turns :p

Are you playing more turns atropos?
 
I won't tonight. If someone wants to go right away they can, otherwise I will play a few more turns tomorrow.
 
What do we do about Taoist Qin?
We can convert to Taoism if we want, then covert back when we get civil service and can move to his favourite civic. I am afraid that checking is WHEOOH is not enough for use, as we cannot counter his forces of maces and knights.
On the other hand, Boudica is weaker than us, so he might attack her instead of us.

Problem is, if he demands that we convert, we will refuse and if that makes him annoyed we have to declare war on him and the game is over.

I didn't look at the save, but lets consider converting seriously.
EDIT:
I don't know what happened to Minoan's rice ,must be a random event
Regarding the mound city stack, I moved it there to pillage a road, and also to divert Bull's counter attacks away from our main stacks. It worked quite well, he wasted catapults and crossbows on this small stack.
 
OK- back to civ!
I would keep Mound city--I know it's not great but it has a food resource and is close so should break even more or less. It helps connect us, and given the resources there's a good chance someone refounds it.

As for taking Tao, seems like a close call. On one hand he's our risk--if he attacks us now we're sunk. We can afford at least one refusal since we're currently at 0 with him. Taking Tao could put us at war with Zara pretty quick and cost us relations with lots of our friends.

I'm a little confused on our research--why didn't we research mono before monarchy? What is our trading plan?

I agree with the rest of the thoughts-- we need to switch to infra as we are in danger of falling too far behind in tech--it's already a little scary with Zara having nat and QSH working on edu while we're on...monarchy.
 
We also need to war a little faster, I just noticed it's 700 AD already. In general one of the challenges of normal speed is that warring really slows you down so you'll have to accept losses and attack several places at the same time. Having an army costs a lot of gold in peace-time so it doesn't matter if it dies.
 
Guys, I'm sorry but I think this game is over.

Turn 0: Man, the guy who played before me was a jerk. Check and remedy all the micromanagement. I blame communism.

Qin is pleased with Boudica so he won't be going to war with her. I really don't want to spoil our relations with absolutely everyone by converting to Taoism, not to mention the fact that we only have Taoism in one city, so I won't be converting just yet. Maybe after I trade Philosophy around next turn.

Priority buildings are Buddhist anyway since the AP has been built. We also need temples so that we can run priests for our UB. I'm unclear about whether the rule on jags applies to scouts; anyway, I send a jag north for exploration. I am a huge fan of getting as much as possible done early. Can always send him back if we snag a map in the trading.
Turn 1: trade sugar for 6 gpt with Wang Kon; should have done that last turn, sorry. Only chance at feudalism is with Wang Kon. He will not take the trade so I will wait one turn at max research of Feudalism in the hope this will get us a deal. He is not researching Philosophy as he offers the same deal for machinery as everyone else. Wait to revolt to HR until we get monotheism. Prepare to whip one last jag at Tlatelolco to accompany an elephant stack moving towards Mound City. Plan for Cahokia is that all full-health units advance south while injured units wait to meet up with the Mound City stack for a possible assault on Mesa Verde.

Turn 2: Jewish shrine and Hagia Sophia built. No one that lacks philosophy has civil service so I can't get it. Trade with Wang Kon for feudalism + 15 gold:



This lowers the price of philosophy. I will research machinery for a turn in the hope of trading. Trade Qin copper for fish and 2 gpt, and gift Wang Kon ivory. We are sunk if Qin demands it.

SB has inexplicably sent his GG horse archer by itself right next to one of my reinforcing war elephants, apparently on a pillaging mission. Verily, he hath rocks for brains. Needless to say it breathes a gentle sigh before leaving this world for a better. Glimpse the defenses of Spiro: it hasn't got any to speak of. I will redirect some catapults to start bombarding Poverty Point instead.

Turn 3. We get a seriously bad AP resolution: PEACE WITH SITTING BULL.

I vote no rather than never. Cat dies to WE. Cat retreats from full-health WE (!) WE dies to a crossbow outside city walls; it had 82% odds!

Trade Sury Philosophy for 50 gold and Machinery.

The game CRASHES AGAIN I AM GOING TO BREAK SOMETHING ARGH. Fortunately I had saved relatively recently.

On the IT, a HA retreats from a WE, a dog soldier kills it, and the resolution passes.



I'm sorry. Maybe I should have defied the resolution. This mechanism is broken; in a close game, a resolution you can do nothing about can end it. It's as bad as barbarian uprisings.
 

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Couldn't you vassalize him just after the AP resolution came up? Just a guess, I don't have much experience with the AP...
 
meh.

You should always defy unless you're absolutely certain it won't pass. As everyone was sharing a religion here it was obvious it would be a clear 'no' all around. :(
 
Well, I'll know for the future. I have little experience with AP resolutions and assumed the consequences of defying would be dire. Many apologies.
 
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