Unique Buildings

[Drtad]

I saw Presdigitator's Edubba a while back in Rhye's thread. Oops, I should not have put ziggurat up there, I'll edit the first post maybe tommorow, no time now.

 

[Drtad]

I editted the first post. As I said before, many of the current ones have placeholder names. The only civ with no clue is Media. This is a special civ as no Median records exist of their existence, with the exeption of Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Urartian, Armenian, and Elamite texts describing their empire. No clue as to what a specific building might be. Maybe an advanced Barracks? Since Median troops in the Sassanid Persian Empire were called the Median Guard, very elite units. Used against St. Vartan at the Battle of Vartanantz. Maybe they could be of higher quality.

 

[Quantumf8]

hmm media... Ya, I think either a special barracks that gives troops extra exp, or a court, as deiokes was seen a lawbringinger to the median tribes?

 

[Drtad]

Well, if the Medians had to wait for Deiokes to bring them laws, I don't think a special court will do. I'd rather go for maybe, the Median Training Camp.

 

[Sword Dancer]

You suggest a Stone Calendar for the Britons. Since there is no *real* proof that the Henges were designed to be calendars, and thanks to precession the alignments would have been different when the were built then they are today.

My suggestion is just to call the Briton unique building the Henge, and have it replace either the Monument or Holy Site.

Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henge

This change would likely require renaming the Stonehenge wonder to something like "The Great Henge". Alternatively, if we go the route of havign unique wonders, we could have this Great Henge appear like a national wonder and require a specific number of Henges to allow the construction of it.

 

[Drtad]

Not a bad idea.

 

[Sword Dancer]

If I had my druthers, I'd axe all 'global' wonders, and instead give each civ in TAM a national wonder that they and only they could build. Again, if we tie the construction of those wonders to having a set number of civ-unique buildings, then that would ensure that the wonder would be civ-specific.

This way, we could ensure that Egypt gets the Pyramids, Britain the Great Henge, Babylon the Hanging Gardens, Rome a Forum Romanum, Kroisos its riches, etc...

 

[Sword Dancer]

Persia=Apothecary
Media=Median Training Camp?
Kolchis=Kolchean Harbor?
Lydia=Lydian Market?
Hittites=Hittite Lion Gate? (Walls)
Babylon=Edubba? (Library)
Egypt=Obelisk
Nubia=Nubian Pyramid
Rome=Forum
Gaul=Celtic Dun?
Germany=Thengaz
Carthage=Cothon
Greece=Odeon
Illyria=Illyrian Citadel?
Getae/Dacia=Immortal Shrine?
Phoenicia=Trading Post
Britons=Stone Calendar?
Iberian Tribes=Iberian Stables?
Tartessians=Tartessian Docks?
Scythia=Scythian Burial Mound?

What would these replace? If we go the route of a National wonder for each Civ, then what would be the "bigger" or "more important" version of these be?

I heavily disagree with Warlords' idea that the Roman Forum is a market on steroids. The Fora were centers of administration and governance, and should more accurately replace the courthouse.

I would propose that a Forum Romanum national wonder reduce unhappiness in all cities by 1 (to reflect a single unified body of law)

 

[Hypnotoad]

If I had my druthers, I'd axe all 'global' wonders, and instead give each civ in TAM a national wonder that they and only they could build. Again, if we tie the construction of those wonders to having a set number of civ-unique buildings, then that would ensure that the wonder would be civ-specific.

This way, we could ensure that Egypt gets the Pyramids, Britain the Great Henge, Babylon the Hanging Gardens, Rome a Forum Romanum, Kroisos its riches, etc...

While I'm happy to see your new ideas, I can't say that I like this one. TAM is alternate history -- not actual history. Part of what I find appealing is pretending that Lydia becomes the dominate power, building Hanging Gardens, a grand forum, etc. In my opinion, this proposal goes past adding flavor to the different civilizations and starts railroading them down a certain path.

 

[Quantumf8]

the original list copy-pasted with my thoughts on what they could replace:
Persia=Apothecary- same as warlords
Media=Median Training Camp?- stables/ barracks
Kolchis=Kolchean Harbor?- docks
Lydia=Lydian Market?- market?
Hittites=Hittite Lion Gate? (Walls)(( already listed))
Babylon=Edubba? (Library)(( already listed))
Egypt=Obelisk- same as warlords
Nubia=Nubian Pyramid- obelisk/ holy site?
Rome=Forum-courthouse
Gaul=Celtic Dun? - fortress
Germany=Thengaz - court
Carthage=Cothon same as warlords
Greece=Odeon- same as warlords
Illyria=Illyrian Citadel?- fortress
Getae/Dacia=Immortal Shrine?- holy site
Phoenicia=Trading Post- docks
Britons=Stone Calendar? ???
Iberian Tribes=Iberian Stables? stables
Tartessians=Tartessian Docks? docks
Scythia=Scythian Burial Mound? burial mound

 

[Shqype]

Illyria=Illyrian Citadel?- fortress

"Kala" is the unique name.

 

[Drtad]

O yeah. Forgot to change that in the first post, I'll do that now...

 

[Sword Dancer]

While I'm happy to see your new ideas, I can't say that I like this one. TAM is alternate history -- not actual history. Part of what I find appealing is pretending that Lydia becomes the dominate power, building Hanging Gardens, a grand forum, etc. In my opinion, this proposal goes past adding flavor to the different civilizations and starts railroading them down a certain path.

I understand your objections, but I take the approach of the Romans -- If you want the wonder, conquer the city that has built it... There's alot to be said for enhancing the flavour of individual civs, and while I applaud what Sid has done, Vanilla Civ just doesn't diferentiate them al to well.

 

[Shqype]

O yeah. Forgot to change that in the first post, I'll do that now...

Kala, not "Kala castle." Kala means "castle."

 

[Drtad]

I meant that it replaces castle.

 

[loseth]

I understand your objections, but I take the approach of the Romans -- If you want the wonder, conquer the city that has built it... There's alot to be said for enhancing the flavour of individual civs, and while I applaud what Sid has done, Vanilla Civ just doesn't diferentiate them al to well.

I agree. I think it would be nice to differentiate between...

1. Unique wonders, like the Colosseum, which only Rome could build.

2. Semi-unique wonders, like the pyramids, which would most easilly be built by Egypt, but could also be built by Nubia/Kush or even--at a much higher cost--Mesopotamian civs (since a pyramid is basically a huge, finely stepped ziggurat with smoothed sides).

3. Generic wonders, with names like 'Legendary Gardens' or 'The Great Library,' which could reasonably have been built by many different civs.

Having this unique + generic combination would allow better differentiation of civs, but at the same time keep that wonderful element of the race to be the first to build Wonder X.

 

[loseth]

My .02c on unique buildings for the Romans and Germanics:

For the Romans, the basilica. The basilica was the administrative centre of a typical Western Roman city. It was also, outside core Roman territory, a great symbol of Romanness. Basically, if a city had a basilica, then its inhabitants knew that it was a Roman city, governed by Roman law and a centre of Roman culture—unlike the various minor towns and villages that might have surrounded it.

For the Germanics (Germany, Goths, etc.), the mead hall. The early Germanics were not known for their architecture, their art or their literature; they were known for one thing alone—their prowess on the battlefield. Unlike their Celtic neighbours, they inflicted a horrendous defeat upon Rome when the legions came to conquer Germania as they had conquered Gaul. For centuries, the Germanics were feared as raiders and coveted as mercenaries. With time, they eventually assumed the defence of the Western (and to some extent the Eastern) Roman Empire, and then later took over government of the Western Empire, conquering all before them.
And what was at the heart of this militarism? The relationship between lord and warriors. Loyalty to one’s lord was the supreme virtue, and in return for this loyalty, one’s lord was expected to win glory and gifts for his followers. And what was most symbolic of this relationship between lord and warriors? The mead hall. This hall was a public display of the lord’s wealth (and thus his success in battle—for this is where wealth came from) and his glorious reputation. It was also the place where he would feast his warriors and, often, distribute his gifts to them. It was also frequently the place where his warriors would swear their loyalty to him.
I much prefer the mead hall to the *thengaz. The truth is that Germanic societies showed a huge variety of systems of government. The *thengaz only existed in some Germanic cultures during some time periods, and in reality, it was simply a council of potentates/elders, which is really not very unique—this sort of council can be found in many different cultures under many different names. Sure, it had its own unique Germanic flavour, but that’s not enough, IMO, to make it special. The idea that the *thengaz is the heart of modern democracy is really a Romantic Victorian/Edwardian notion that no longer enjoys widespread support.

 

[Hypnotoad]

I like the Mead hall. Make it fearsome. In Fall from Heaven, there is a +10% loyalty promotion. Any chance of having the Mead Hall provide that? I don't know if that is possible, but it would be cool. Promotions that don't require XP are quite powerful.

 

[Chode]

My .02c on unique buildings for the Romans and Germanics:

For the Romans, the basilica. The basilica was the administrative centre of a typical Western Roman city. It was also, outside core Roman territory, a great symbol of Romanness. Basically, if a city had a basilica, then its inhabitants knew that it was a Roman city, governed by Roman law and a centre of Roman culture—unlike the various minor towns and villages that might have surrounded it.

For the Germanics (Germany, Goths, etc.), the mead hall. The early Germanics were not known for their architecture, their art or their literature; they were known for one thing alone—their prowess on the battlefield. Unlike their Celtic neighbours, they inflicted a horrendous defeat upon Rome when the legions came to conquer Germania as they had conquered Gaul. For centuries, the Germanics were feared as raiders and coveted as mercenaries. With time, they eventually assumed the defence of the Western (and to some extent the Eastern) Roman Empire, and then later took over government of the Western Empire, conquering all before them.
And what was at the heart of this militarism? The relationship between lord and warriors. Loyalty to one’s lord was the supreme virtue, and in return for this loyalty, one’s lord was expected to win glory and gifts for his followers. And what was most symbolic of this relationship between lord and warriors? The mead hall. This hall was a public display of the lord’s wealth (and thus his success in battle—for this is where wealth came from) and his glorious reputation. It was also the place where he would feast his warriors and, often, distribute his gifts to them. It was also frequently the place where his warriors would swear their loyalty to him.
I much prefer the mead hall to the *thengaz. The truth is that Germanic societies showed a huge variety of systems of government. The *thengaz only existed in some Germanic cultures during some time periods, and in reality, it was simply a council of potentates/elders, which is really not very unique—this sort of council can be found in many different cultures under many different names. Sure, it had its own unique Germanic flavour, but that’s not enough, IMO, to make it special. The idea that the *thengaz is the heart of modern democracy is really a Romantic Victorian/Edwardian notion that no longer enjoys widespread support.

There is a model for a forum in Warlords so I doubt they are going to make an entirely new model when they already have a professional one.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

From my own ideas, like my mod, I have a system in which each culture group has their own unique buildings, in my case the culture groups are religion groups as well as unique buildings for each civ. Unfortunately I don't think that would quite work with TAM. It would be a stretch I guess. I think that on the major civs like rome and greece theres just too much choices for ubs like basilicas, agoras, forums, acropolis.