Unit Healing rates

[Thunderbrd]

Please T-brd I'm not a beginner. Don't act like I don't know how to wage war in C2C. Look T-brd thru the MP games you've caught a glimpse of my play style. Why would my playstyle be any different here.

No the city of Uxmal was not built on a hill, floodplains desert, mouth of river.

No I've never had a Hunter attacked by 30 aniamls and walk away unharmed. What Options are You Using to get such unrealistic results?

My anger was directed at city defenders being 3 to 4 times stronger than they Ever should be. The SH was the newest promo I'd seen over used like it was.

I gave you a quick synopsis and you react and type a tome over it! And you made way too many assumptions about it and how I play. Every paragraph is over thought and over assumed on your end I'm afraid to tell you.

It would have taken me Hours to reply to every one of your questions and many did not need to be asked at all. It took me over an hour just to type my synopsis post. But all you really had to do was to take the savegame I posted and played a round or 2 attacking Uxmal. A picture is worth a 1,000 words and a round of play or 2 id worth 10,000. I can't write you a book over a subject that it is obvious to have many problems. And early game city attacking has Many many big problems. And has had them since right before April of 2014 when you made some coding changes that for me Broke this part of the game. From 2009 till early 2014 there was a fear of being attacked and having your city taken in the game. But after your changes in early 2014 there is No Longer any Fear left. Why? Because City defenses are Too strong thru multiple avenues of change. All made by your hands in the name of "depth and sophistication".



Edit: I attacked Uxmal 4 times with a continued expansion of promos given to my units. By that time it did Not matter any more all because the 1st attack failed. That is the key. That is when I laid waste to it' tiles and stationed units on every food or hammer producing tile it had. It eventually shrunk to size 4 from a peak of size 10. Uxmal did fall just several turns ago. It took getting Othobols(sp), Oxbelos, and Mounted infantry to crack it enough that the 200+ unit army surrounding it could finally start taking out it's defenders. Aided by multiple units that gave enough collateral damage to make a difference. Those defenders acquitted themselves very very well. For everyone one of them that died I lost 2 - 5 attackers


JosEPh

I guess my main point was how do you come to the conclusion to be enraged at a promotion that has very minimal combat benefit? If they are full of SH, then all the more it has something to do with other factors.

From what you said, I'm thinking it really has more to do with city defense buildings. Something was certainly out of balance in that situation.

Don't get me wrong here, I do respect you as a player and a competitor, particularly in our MP games where you've shown serious skill. It's just frustrating that you'd illogically target something that has nothing to do with your irritation.

Even in Vanilla, however, I was able to hold a single hill with 6 machine guns against nearly 100 fully healthy attacking units ranging from infantry to cavalry to artillery. If the defensive situation is right, it's nearly impossible to take the position. SOMETHING was giving that city the right circumstances.

And since you do check the combat odds, roughly what were the attacker odds showing as? (They were probably about 10% less in reality since they would probably have been damaged by the city between attacking and actually entering combat - then add in all the first strikes suffered before having a chance to return fire...)

 

[Rwn]

Size matters make a huge difference at least with barbarian animals. I would always lose multiple units even up to 4 strength without it. With size matters I have not lost 1 thing to them except for a split up stone thrower. Anything merged, even my stone thrower, has not come close to dying. They can even defend against neaderthals. I haven't played this game long enough to really see how size matters effects taking AI cities though.

Thing is, the final strength of many animals was reduced down due to the effect of size and group volume properties (even if combat quality compensate for some) - something I was precisely a bit disappointed with, hence the Dangerous Animals modmod . That said, neanderthalians with their 3 strength should remain a threat to merged stone throwers even in a forested hill, you were probably lucky if you survived.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@T-brd,
The initial attack my best odds were less than 5% on down to 0%. If I had just went on Odds alone I should have never even attempted to attack. But I had to see how my units fared even if it meant I come away with a Bloody nose, which I did. And then stubbornly tried 3 more times.

Since all my games are test games ( I never get to finish one because too many changes prevent me) I had to try the attack even if it caused me to lose the game.

One other aspect of this game and in conjunction with the taking of Uxmal, the culture was exceedingly slow to change on adjacent empire tiles. The sister city of Uxmal, Chichen Itza was, at the same time as the initial attack on Uxmal, completely defenderless. Pacal for some unknown reason pulled every unit out of it. I walked in without a fight. So I had Chichen as a 1 tile city. After the initial rebellion phase was over I brought in Bards and built production, culture, and food bldgs in rotating successive turns. Any bldg that gave culture along with food or hammers was a priority. It took many many turns before the tiles that this city originally had influence over next to my frontier border adjacent cities to start to get to the point where they would turn. Many sat there with 51% Pacal and 49% American turn after turn after turn. There were even tiles that were 5, 6 or 7 tiles from Pacal's nearest cities that stayed that way until I destroyed just a few minutes ago Pacal's last city. It was like a twisted version of "realistic culture spread had been secretly activated against my empire (I do Not use Realistic Culture Spread Option, It in no way lives up to it's name the way I see Culture.). This is the subject of another thread so I'll stop with this. Really cluttering up Toffer's Modmod thread, I think they call this hijacking?!! Sorry Toffer90.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@SO/DH: What's your opinions on the healing rate changes I've proposed here. In my experience it makes units heal the way they did before size matters and healing buildings were introduced.
usually 2-5 turns but sometimes as much as 8-14 (usually many units merged into 1 for the latter).

I plan on commiting the changes to the Self Heal promotion in my next commit but I'm unsure about the global healing rate change....

OK I quoted the wrong thread and answered the other below. No coffee yet,

I have not had a chance to try the new healing rates and wont for another three weeks or so.

I don't play with Size Matters on and I rarely loose a unit to animals. Yes I have lost a well promoted scout when he blunders into an unexplored area with a lot of animals near by. I play with animals at nearly twice the spawn rate.

 

[Toffer90]

v0.2.4.4

Some polish to promos and their requirement logic.
-Maneuvering requires Combat I; Navigation requires Sophistication I
-Nerfed bottleneck and swarm some more.
-Maneuvering I gives double movement on kelp and seagrass as well as combat bonus there
-Maneuvering II gives double movement in coral and reef as well as combat bonus there and in kelp seagrass.
-Maneuvering III gives double movement in storm and a strong combat bonus in coral and reef.
-other tweaks.

 

[Toffer90]

I updated the overview, in the OP, of what promotion-lines requires what promotions. It is by far easier to read and contains more promtion-lines than the old overview.

Image link

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

What does the Sophistication line need?

 

[Toffer90]

What does the Sophistication line need?

Nothing it is one of the three base lines; it doesn't unlock much on it's own but together with survival or combat it unlocks the more sophisticated promotions. there is an overview picture in the opening post.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Thanks. I'll see if my brother will let me download the SVN onto his computer so I can make some informed comments.

 

[Toffer90]

Thanks. I'll see if my brother will let me download the SVN onto his computer so I can make some informed comments.

I would appreciate that.

 

[Toffer90]

v0.3
Gave street fighter City Raider I OR City Garrison I requirement.
nothing else....

 

[Thunderbrd]

Reviewing the chains you've written I do think it's a very interesting concept. Makes me wish I had more time to playtest it but I'm avidly interested in hearing the feedback that should come in on it. Some of it is very clever.

One thing about Street Fighter... It's potentially a frustration though it does make sense. The purpose of the chain was to give melee units something of a 'minor' city garrison. I think it might be interesting the way you set it up so that you'd have to take a city attack promo to get effective city defense. Counterintuitive 'best practices' can be intriguing.

 

[Toffer90]

Reviewing the chains you've written I do think it's a very interesting concept. Makes me wish I had more time to playtest it but I'm avidly interested in hearing the feedback that should come in on it. Some of it is very clever.

One thing about Street Fighter... It's potentially a frustration though it does make sense. The purpose of the chain was to give melee units something of a 'minor' city garrison. I think it might be interesting the way you set it up so that you'd have to take a city attack promo to get effective city defense. Counterintuitive 'best practices' can be intriguing.

I had a feeling that this was the purpose of street fighter, thus I spent some time wondering if I should have it require Combat III or what it now requires....
I might change my mind still.

Edit: v0.3.1
Nerfed street fighter (to not be OP compared to other promos) and made it require Combat III instead.
Tweaked Paramedic promo-line; it now gives collateral damage protection.

 

[Thunderbrd]

This is where a 3rd OR prereq would be cool but impossible to do without further coding that I'd be loathe to get into. I really liked the thinking behind your proposal as well. #onthefence.

 

[Toffer90]

This is where a 3rd OR prereq would be cool but impossible to do without further coding that I'd be loathe to get into. I really liked the thinking behind your proposal as well. #onthefence.

True that, but It's not very important with that third OR prereq, so don't worry about it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Came across a strange promo this evening. Had Just built a new trio of Deceres and 1 received the Promo Astrological Sign Capricorn. Capricorn gives 2 promos, No Penalty from Attacking from Sea, and No Penalty from Crossing River. Just doesn't seem to fit Naval vessels don't you think?

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Came across a strange promo this evening. Had Just built a new trio of Deceres and 1 received the Promo Astrological Sign Capricorn. Capricorn gives 2 promos, No Penalty from Attacking from Sea, and No Penalty from Crossing River. Just doesn't seem to fit Naval vessels don't you think?

JosEPh

Those promos were made to be randomly assigned to any unit. It does appear that any real benefit for naval units is non-existent for Capricorn, which is unfortunate.

 

[Toffer90]

Those promos were made to be randomly assigned to any unit. It does appear that any real benefit for naval units is non-existent for Capricorn, which is unfortunate.

Could we not restrict that perticular promotion by domain (no air, no water), or would such restrictions be ignored in this scenario?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Could we not restrict that perticular promotion by domain (no air, no water), or would such restrictions be ignored in this scenario?

I would need to look at the code. It probably does not check if the unit can have the promotion before assigning it.

edit It just assigns the random promotion without regard to the unit or promotion.

 

[Toffer90]

@DH: I see, thanks for checking.

v0.3.2

-Fixed annoying bug where you have to re-choose certain promos when upgrading or split/merging units. Apparently the order of which promotions are listed in the XML matter.

v0.3.3

-Nerfed Sophistication promo.-line (no longer the absolute best first 4 promotions, my bad ^^.).