Unit strength overhaul

I dont think a str 5 archer unit is needed as that would make cities laughably easy to defend until catapults can start beating the defences open a bit

The only thing needed is something to stem the power of the str 8 mounted units when rest is str 3-5 and that would be easily accomplished by a str 5 spearman that ya get along with axemen with bronze working... Id guess unit name could be something like Hoplite or such
 
I'm thinking that a movement rate of 1 would be unmodified cost, with each point above 1 resulting in around 20% increase in cost, or maybe even more if they are fast *and* retain defensive bonuses. Lets face it, it's far more expensive, materials wise, to outfit a sizable force of soldiers with well trained horses or armored vehicles than to just give them all a bunch of swords or rifles.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen the spreadsheets that you've uploaded. I think I'll need to pick up a freeware excel knockoff to start reviewing those.
 
I would suggest posting the spreadsheet as public google docs so that anyone here can look at them.
 
I'm thinking that a movement rate of 1 would be unmodified cost, with each point above 1 resulting in around 20% increase in cost, or maybe even more if they are fast *and* retain defensive bonuses. Lets face it, it's far more expensive, materials wise, to outfit a sizable force of soldiers with well trained horses or armored vehicles than to just give them all a bunch of swords or rifles
I actually went and tested the default BtS unit values with my sheets and those units actually get more str / 1 production the further you advance and movement is not considered at all in unit cost! So I think I won't adjust cost based on unit movement rates but I'm considering still adding the extra upkeep costs for more advanced units (tanks do need regular service etc.) that I had planned to include in the next patch. I didn't make this change yet to RoM 2.6 as I don't know yet if people actually can make enough gold to support large tank based armies. RoM 2.6 does have couple unit classes that do have this extra upkee now (Dreadnought, mechs, mercenary infantry).

I would suggest posting the spreadsheet as public google docs so that anyone here can look at them.
Maybe when it's complete. Just today I finished couple unitcombat groups and still many left to do. The RoM patcth 2.6 has those sheets included in unfinished state.
 
Hmmm... I suppose I can see where you need to keep the fast units at same cost as slower units of the same type. The AI won't know that there's a reason to produce the faster ones instead of the slower ones otherwise. The idea of adding extra support cost to late era units is a nice touch, though.
 
i just realized this was the place to discuss unit strengths, so i'll paste what i wrote in the 2.6 discussion thread:

i've played with the new unit strengths in a new game. i generally like the changes, but i have to say trebuchets (and probably other siege) are way too strong. no normal unit in the middle ages can withstand strength 18 city attack, and 18 attack with collateral damage is just extreme. even veteran longbows and crossbows just melt away. it's basically a race to see who can move up the trebs to cities fastest.

I second that. Trebs are waay too powerfull. The bonus attached to them when attacking cities is so powerfull that it is better to defend your city outside of it and never let them get close to it
Another "problem" is the biiiig gap early in the game between mounted (elephants and horse archers at 8) and all other units (3 for spears and archers, and 5 for axes and swords). Added to that the double building promotions specific to mouted units with barracks and stable and you can basically roll over the AI if you you have ivory or horsies near by. In the vanilla BtS, sper was 4 and horsies 6 (like swords by the way), now sper are reduced to 3 and horsies increased to 8 !!!
Scientific is too powerfull. I chenged it to 5% bonus and it looked more balanced to me.
 
I second that. Trebs are waay too powerfull. The bonus attached to them when attacking cities is so powerfull that it is better to defend your city outside of it and never let them get close to it
Another "problem" is the biiiig gap early in the game between mounted (elephants and horse archers at 8) and all other units (3 for spears and archers, and 5 for axes and swords). Added to that the double building promotions specific to mouted units with barracks and stable and you can basically roll over the AI if you you have ivory or horsies near by. In the vanilla BtS, sper was 4 and horsies 6 (like swords by the way), now sper are reduced to 3 and horsies increased to 8 !!!
Scientific is too powerfull. I chenged it to 5% bonus and it looked more balanced to me.

Yes! Its crazy... BUT if u really insist on making horses so powerful i suggest a -50% attack on cites forests and jungles. Maybe even hills...

U cant really charge a walled city with horse archers...
 
Yes! Its crazy... BUT if u really insist on making horses so powerful i suggest a -50% attack on cites forests and jungles. Maybe even hills...

U cant really charge a walled city with horse archers...
All mounted&wheeled units already have negative bonus when attacking to forest or jungle in RoM 2.6 ;)

I've now attached newest unit excel sheets to the first post in this thread. Have fun playing with the values :lol:

Still those aren't complete, I need to go through Hi-tech, ships and planes and fill the info about them to those sheets later...
 
Having played through to the renaissance on the most recent release, I think Heavy Swordsmen need to be nerfed a little. 17 Strength is comparable to Musketmen, 2nd level gunpowder units. And with the 30% bonus to City Attack (and all the promotions the AI can heap on them) it makes them a bit too potent in my opinion, enabling the AI to use melee long into the Renaissance era. I had the AI passing over Arquibessiers (sp?) and Musketmen in favor of Heavy Swords. I can understand making them as capable as the Arq's (being a new technology and strategy of warfare) but should they really be able to go toe to toe with Muskets??
 
I agree, the Hvy swordsman is way overpowered. I have never lost a battle where my main attack force was composed of hvy swordsmen. I Imagine macemen could be used to defend against them, but even the computer knows how to use artillery to compensate for that. That said, the number of macemen you would have to produce would be prohibitive as you must spread your defenses equally to prevent a surge on a particular city. No quick response unit is strong enough to fight them, so speedy reinforcement is nigh impossible. They're even pretty good at defense! It's a good thing the computer is a moron or else we'd all be dead. As things are, once the free market civic gives you enough funds to sponsor a major conquest, you can take whole continents with minimal losses (assuming your country can tolerate the unhappiness). I usually stop short because I want to give the computer a fighting chance. Please, hvy footmen (swordsmen & macemen) were never this powerful in history. Cavalry always dominated as they could outmaneuver infantry. Massive amounts of pikemen and archers usually made up medieval armies because they were cheaper than other forms of weaponry. Perhaps, if archery units (the crossbowman) could be made in mass amounts (perhaps feudal civics could speed their production as feudal societies valued training with the bow) and the crossbowman was given a 75% bonus against melee troops, things might be a bit more balanced. Also, perhaps cavalry should all have a better chance at withdrawing from a battle with melee troops.

As for the Elephants, they did have a propensity for crushing their own troops. Elephants are not aggressive by nature and require a great deal of special training before they will commit to battle. Indians and southeast Asians are the only peoples I know of who were able to employ them effectively. Despite whatever you idiot history teacher might have said about Hannibal, he had little success with elephants as they frequently turned on his own men and destroyed his defensive formations. And no the Romans were not afraid of war elephants, there was no psychological warfare; the Romans kept them as pets. This happened to the Asians sometimes also, but since they trained from birth to ride elephants, they were better at controlling their beasts in battle. That said, when you could get elephants to do what you want, they were quite useful. Perhaps we could nerf them and make a special promotion which is only available to elephants and sort of "unlocks" their abilities to simulate the amount of training necessary for them to become useful.
 
gunpowder units get bonuses against melee units. i think it's +50%. i've never had problems with AI heavy swordsmen. usually they die en masse trying to attack arquebusier defended cities. what you really have to be careful of is a stack of bombards coming to your city...
 
1900AD in a 2.6Full game just got an event that gave me 13 Tanks (str 50). Up to this point I was using Cannon, Riflemen, and Grenadier. Jeep and motorcycle were upcoming techs que'd for research. Got a second event that pushed Montezuma into a war with me. Those 13 tanks are running rough shod over his Hvy swords, arq'busiers and bombards.

Point being I'm Very Glad I got the Event instead of one of the AI.

These new unit strengths are going to need to be played with thru several games to get a good grip on them. 1st impressions are not always the best in this type of gameplay.

My vote is to give it more play time before adjustments are made.

JosEPh :)
 
I think you should add a few more non-unique units such as ...

Prehistoric

Name: Rock Thrower / Slings
Type: Pre-Archery
Req: Stone Tools
Tree: Between Warrior and Archer

Name: Log Ram
Type: Pre-Siege Weapons
Req: The Wheel
Tree: Before Ram

Name: Transport Raft / Canoe
Type: Pre-Wooden Ships
Req: Fishing
Tree: Before Galley
Info: Holds 1 Unit

Name: War Raft / War Canoe
Type: Pre-Wooden Ships
Req: Fishing
Tree: Before War Galley

Classical / Medieval

Name: Javelin
Type: Archery
Req: Archery
Tree: After Archer
Info: Good vs Horse

Name: Stone Thrower / Scorpion
Type: Siege Weapons
Req: Mathematics
Tree: Before Trebuchet
Info: Different from a Catapult.

Name: Light Ram
Type: Siege Weapons
Req: Mathematics
Tree: After Log Ram

Renaissance

Name: Ballista
Type: Siege Weapons
Req: Gun Powder (Sulfur)
Tree: After Scorpion

Name: Heavy Ram
Type: Siege Weapons
Req: Metallurgy
Tree: After Light Ram
 
gunpowder units get bonuses against melee units. i think it's +50%.


Well, its not making a bit of difference vs 17 Strength Hvyswords attacking cities (+30%) and buffed with a few promotions. I'm having armies of Hvyswords swarming and destroying cities occupied with comparable numbers of Muskets.
 
Well, its not making a bit of difference vs 17 Strength Hvyswords attacking cities (+30%) and buffed with a few promotions. I'm having armies of Hvyswords swarming and destroying cities occupied with comparable numbers of Muskets.

for one, attacking cities in ROM is heavily favoured. you've got super strength siege to help you out, and defenders (mainly the archer line) are under strengthed (archers don't even get promotions from barracks).

what the defender needs to do is to just attack the heavy swords in the field. even unpromoted arquebusiers or muskets can destroy city raider heavies in the open. the AI doesn't know how to do it, but if you see AI heavies coming, just throw your rookie gunpowder units at them, and they will die. god have mercy on the heavies if you ever got 2 or 5 xp points on a gunpowder unit and promoted them with shock...
 
for one, attacking cities in ROM is heavily favoured. you've got super strength siege to help you out, and defenders (mainly the archer line) are under strengthed (archers don't even get promotions from barracks).

what the defender needs to do is to just attack the heavy swords in the field. even unpromoted arquebusiers or muskets can destroy city raider heavies in the open. the AI doesn't know how to do it, but if you see AI heavies coming, just throw your rookie gunpowder units at them, and they will die. god have mercy on the heavies if you ever got 2 or 5 xp points on a gunpowder unit and promoted them with shock...


From my understanding, siege was toned down in the most recent release of DCM/Rev, its more like standard BtS again (which I was greatly displeased with). :mad: No longer can siege do direct damage to units in the field or to garrisoned units after they city's defense has been worn down. Whats the point of mod'ing it at this juncture? :confused: At this point its just come full circle back to pretty much vanilla BtS :blush: But I digress ;)

:) Under normal circumstances I would wholeheartedly agreed with your "best defense is a good offense" strategy, but it doesn't take into account defensive bonuses from terrain and promotions. You literally have to catch units in the open to have a chance at anything more than the pyrhic victory that would result if they happen to be in wooded or hilly cover :(

And lastly
attacking cities in ROM is heavily favoured.
I think just lends credence to my belief that hvyswords strength and/or city attack bonus should be reduced ;)
 
From my understanding, siege was toned down in the most recent release of DCM/Rev, its more like standard BtS again (which I was greatly displeased with). :mad: No longer can siege do direct damage to units in the field or to garrisoned units after they city's defense has been worn down.

i didn't know that. although in vanilla siege can still do direct damage to units, but the maximum damage possible was capped at a lower percentage. i kind of like the lower percentages, at least for pre-artillery units. it's a little absurd that trebs can take knights down to a sliver of life. i'll have to play the most recent version to see what has happened.

:) Under normal circumstances I would wholeheartedly agreed with your "best defense is a good offense" strategy, but it doesn't take into account defensive bonuses from terrain and promotions. You literally have to catch units in the open to have a chance at anything more than the pyrhic victory that would result if they happen to be in wooded or hilly cover :(

And lastly I think just lends credence to my belief that hvyswords strength and/or city attack bonus should be reduced ;)

that is true. some tactical manuvering is needed to try to catch them outside of forests or forested hills. when that is not possible, the secret is to have a bunch of bombards, which come even before arquebusiers. they have 17 strength and huge collateral damage. soften up the heavies with some bombards and they become much easier to deal with. there are several units in ROM that are very strong compared to same-era defenders. war elephants can totally tear up any ancient-era defender, for example. and i've faced war elephants with the dreaded wootz steel special promotion. they could just walk all over even longbow defended cities! ROM is definitely not as balanced as vanilla, but sometimes it's more fun this way. :goodjob:
 
i didn't know that. although in vanilla siege can still do direct damage to units, but the maximum damage possible was capped at a lower percentage. i kind of like the lower percentages, at least for pre-artillery units. it's a little absurd that trebs can take knights down to a sliver of life. i'll have to play the most recent version to see what has happened.

And I would concur, but at this point we are begining to run into the problem every game runs into, (gameplay vs realism) as well as having to take the long picture of things due to Civ being a Strategy game. You've got to have something to help break into cities, and who's to say those Trebuchet's or catapults aren't sending diseased cattle over walls? That would reduce a Knight and/or their horses fairly quick ;) Though I suppose it would depend on your definition of "quick" (considering turns=years sometimes), but now we're just getting way too far off track ;)


the secret is to have a bunch of bombards, which come even before arquebusiers. they have 17 strength and huge collateral damage. soften up the heavies with some bombards and they become much easier to deal with.

However, you're also betting they are able to successfully withdraw. Otherwise its merely a war of attrition I'd think the hvyswords would ultimately win due to gaining xp and successive promotion.

there are several units in ROM that are very strong compared to same-era defenders. war elephants can totally tear up any ancient-era defender, for example. and i've faced war elephants with the dreaded wootz steel special promotion. they could just walk all over even longbow defended cities!

I've yet to run into anyone besides the Barbarians who utilize Elephants even remotely that effectively. :( And thats if the elephant resource spawns (ever played a map with no sulphur? Now thats a pain! :p ) and if they start pumping out elephants.

I usually have several spears or pikes walking around with my main army group or stationed at border hotspots and they seem to be handling any mounted incursions fine. Although I havent had too much experience with this tactic with the newly reduced strength spearman so that may have to be rethought :confused:
 
Well, in my mind Heavy Swordsmen are wearing 'Bullet Proof' Armour.

Why are they called Bullet Proof? Because as soon as they are done with the armour, they take the lates form of musket, put twice the powder in it. Walk 20 paces away and take shot until one hits it and it doesn't break.

They then show it to the buyer to show it is bullet proofed, then hammer it out. :p

Heavy swordsmen should have a negative first strike if possible to show their slowness in getting into combat. That will allow defenders to make a larger print on their bullet proof armour and maybe hit them in the head and not on the armour.

BTW you shouldn't be able to crush them just with better armour. Amour means slower, less armour makes more manuverable fighters.
 
However, you're also betting they are able to successfully withdraw. Otherwise its merely a war of attrition I'd think the hvyswords would ultimately win due to gaining xp and successive promotion.

I usually have several spears or pikes walking around with my main army group or stationed at border hotspots and they seem to be handling any mounted incursions fine. Although I havent had too much experience with this tactic with the newly reduced strength spearman so that may have to be rethought :confused:

i'd expect most bombards to die. they are only supposed to hurt the stack, so that you can kill the stack with minimal loss of other units - basically to offset base terrain defense advantages. with this tactic, and your own properly promoted units (your own heavies with shock, for example), it's possible to defend against city raider heavies.

i think spears have been bumped back to 4, which is good, because 3 str spears can't handle horse archers and up, and pikes are a long way off. wootz steel plus a basic 10% strength promotion (from stables) on a 11 str war elephant gives a 13.75 str unit. now that is death to archers and spears :eek:
 
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