![[to_xp]Gekko](https://civfanatics-data.community.forum/avatars/m/74/74677.jpg?1475248346){kind=avatar}
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
there's been some excellent discussion on the FFH base forums lately here ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=353270 )
it started with just ideas to make warriors worse after the early game, but it grew into something bigger. most of the points in there apply to WM mana as well since it closely follows base FFH.
my take on the discussion:
1) Animal Mastery should NOT require Iron Working, since otherwise you might as well go up the melee line instead, ignoring recon. imho the tech prereq should be dumped and AM should be made more expensive, similar to other T4 techs.
2) a similar thing could be said for other endgame techs that require expensive techs from completely different branches of the tech tree, like Engineering ( needs Bowyers ) and, IIRC, Divine Essence ( Mithril Working + Theology ? )
3) IMHO point 2) should be evaluated based on "how many different T4 units does this tech branch give"? right now it goes:
Melee: Berserkers, Phalanxes and Immortals ( 3 )
Recon: Beastmasters ( 1 )
Mounted: Knights ( 1 )
Economic: Shadows ( 1 )
Construction: Crossbowman, Arquebuses ( which are more like T3.5 imho ) ( 2 )
Magic: Archmages ( 1 )
Archery: Marksmen ( 1 )
Religion: High Priests ( 1 )
note: I'm ignoring Druids, Paladins and Eidolons here since being dependant on alignment they can't really be evaluated in here ( i.e. they are only accessible 33.3% of the time )
isn't it pretty obvious that we have an issue here? a possible solution imho would be to:
a) move Immortals to the end of the Religious line : now Religion has 2 and Melee has 2.
b) move shadows to the end of the Recon line: now Recon has two. possibly add something else to the Guilds tech to justify its cost
c) move crossbowman to the end of the archery line: archery now has 2. to make up for the loss of them, Machinery could give a new civic, Industry, which gives improved yields from lumbermills, windmills and watermills ( yes, please bring back watermills
) . also, Slavery could give improved yields with workshops, which right now are pretty useless until you get Guilds ( ! ) . I've always hated that bonus to quarries, how many quarries are you going to have in your empire, 2? 
d) add back Armored Cavalry tech, move knights to it. Warhorses give War Chariots, which are T3.5 like Arquebuses, i.e. not as powerful as T4, but buildable en masse. they would share the weaknesses of chariots, making them situational like arquebuses ( war chariots good at open land warfare, arquebuses good for conquering cities ) . Mounted line now has 2.
e) you'll see this leaves only Magic line with just one T4 unit... we could get bold and add back the old distinction between mages/archmages and conjurers/summoners
4) separating the Melee line and the Metal line: I love this idea. Melee line would become Metal line, while axemen->champions->berserkers+phalanxes would get moved to the warfare->military strategy line, which would become the new Melee line and obviously get lenghtened, leading to Rage tech and a new one for Phalanxes.
5) related to point 4) , and also to the "let's make warriors less useful after the early game" discussion: tie metal ties to unit ties ( possibly while wearing a tie ) , and make 'em available to pretty much any unit. i.e. t2 units can use bronze, t3 also iron, and t4 also mithril. I don't see why horsemen, or recon units should not be able to benefit from better weapons, while it makes sense that you wouldn't waste expensive high tier weapons on lowly warriors/scouts.
6) related to points 4) and 5) . some units should REQUIRE resources to build... building swords, axes or knights without metal is silly, and should not be allowed. this will mean more competition to get metals, but also promote the use of other kinds of unit based on what resources you have.
7) high tier ships and siege engines should be able to ranged bombard
8) to encourage use of navies for both the human and the AI, remove resource requirements from ships ( possibly aside from high tier ones ) , and increase their cargo capacities to encourage overseas colonies
it started with just ideas to make warriors worse after the early game, but it grew into something bigger. most of the points in there apply to WM mana as well since it closely follows base FFH.
my take on the discussion:
1) Animal Mastery should NOT require Iron Working, since otherwise you might as well go up the melee line instead, ignoring recon. imho the tech prereq should be dumped and AM should be made more expensive, similar to other T4 techs.
2) a similar thing could be said for other endgame techs that require expensive techs from completely different branches of the tech tree, like Engineering ( needs Bowyers ) and, IIRC, Divine Essence ( Mithril Working + Theology ? )
3) IMHO point 2) should be evaluated based on "how many different T4 units does this tech branch give"? right now it goes:
Melee: Berserkers, Phalanxes and Immortals ( 3 )
Recon: Beastmasters ( 1 )
Mounted: Knights ( 1 )
Economic: Shadows ( 1 )
Construction: Crossbowman, Arquebuses ( which are more like T3.5 imho ) ( 2 )
Magic: Archmages ( 1 )
Archery: Marksmen ( 1 )
Religion: High Priests ( 1 )
note: I'm ignoring Druids, Paladins and Eidolons here since being dependant on alignment they can't really be evaluated in here ( i.e. they are only accessible 33.3% of the time )
isn't it pretty obvious that we have an issue here? a possible solution imho would be to:
a) move Immortals to the end of the Religious line : now Religion has 2 and Melee has 2.
b) move shadows to the end of the Recon line: now Recon has two. possibly add something else to the Guilds tech to justify its cost
c) move crossbowman to the end of the archery line: archery now has 2. to make up for the loss of them, Machinery could give a new civic, Industry, which gives improved yields from lumbermills, windmills and watermills ( yes, please bring back watermills
) . also, Slavery could give improved yields with workshops, which right now are pretty useless until you get Guilds ( ! ) . I've always hated that bonus to quarries, how many quarries are you going to have in your empire, 2? d) add back Armored Cavalry tech, move knights to it. Warhorses give War Chariots, which are T3.5 like Arquebuses, i.e. not as powerful as T4, but buildable en masse. they would share the weaknesses of chariots, making them situational like arquebuses ( war chariots good at open land warfare, arquebuses good for conquering cities ) . Mounted line now has 2.
e) you'll see this leaves only Magic line with just one T4 unit... we could get bold and add back the old distinction between mages/archmages and conjurers/summoners
4) separating the Melee line and the Metal line: I love this idea. Melee line would become Metal line, while axemen->champions->berserkers+phalanxes would get moved to the warfare->military strategy line, which would become the new Melee line and obviously get lenghtened, leading to Rage tech and a new one for Phalanxes.
5) related to point 4) , and also to the "let's make warriors less useful after the early game" discussion: tie metal ties to unit ties ( possibly while wearing a tie
) , and make 'em available to pretty much any unit. i.e. t2 units can use bronze, t3 also iron, and t4 also mithril. I don't see why horsemen, or recon units should not be able to benefit from better weapons, while it makes sense that you wouldn't waste expensive high tier weapons on lowly warriors/scouts.6) related to points 4) and 5) . some units should REQUIRE resources to build... building swords, axes or knights without metal is silly, and should not be allowed. this will mean more competition to get metals, but also promote the use of other kinds of unit based on what resources you have.
7) high tier ships and siege engines should be able to ranged bombard
8) to encourage use of navies for both the human and the AI, remove resource requirements from ships ( possibly aside from high tier ones ) , and increase their cargo capacities to encourage overseas colonies
. I don't think it's OP, as it would be equivalent to a warrior, with a city attack penalty. Then, bump Hunters up to Tracking (which we renaming Hunting), and give them 5
