UnOfficial Expansion: Rise and Fall of Empires, Alpha Release Soon

lp_04 said:
Is this the design?

Good work, too complex, must spend some hours reading that.

First look:
- Pré-historic era covers many years (like a million or more), historically speaking. I have reduced the design I made only to the neolithic period. It is not too complex nor extensive and can easily be changed.
Click to expand...

It was a part of the [civ4] Mod Caveman2Cosmos. I think some ideas can be used from there. Reducing millions of years to about 10,000 years is a good idea, as it is a lot more difficult to cover the entire Prehistoric period.

lp_04 said:
I also thought of another idea: art movements (relism, barroque, clacissism, classical art, modernism, ...) to boost your civ. Can be placed on the tech tree, policy trees or in a separate "artistic tree". Maby it makes the game more complex, it is just an idea. I don't think they fit the tech tree nor the policy tree as they are different from social organization and scientific/technological advancements.

You choose :)

Want me to send you the final design of a neolithic era? It's quite simple and acessible. Adds some pre ancient units (like stone spearman or other name), new wonder: Çatal Höyük (big ancient city in southern turkey), some buildings (longhouse, befor the palace, with less gold/science/culture boost; cromelecs - small boost of fsith and culture) moves stonehenge, reveals all the bonus and luxury resources. basically, makes the first eras more playable and diverse without making them too complex.
Click to expand...

Art Movements - an intersting idea, maybe like:

- Cubism - +2 :c5culture: per Museum. May build the Art Gallery Building which graants you 6 :c5culture: and +5% :c5culture: in the city in which it is built.
- Classisism - +1 :c5faith: per Theatre.

Unlocked: At Being the First to Research a Technology (I think that is possible using Lua)

Acoustic said:
I apologize for the ignorance on my part, I just can't seem to grasp what you are doing lol.

Are you working on including these all together for the release?
Click to expand...


Yes :)
 
Nice. I got an interesting idea for a tech tree. i'm just Finishing it to send you.
The main changes are:
Included new techs: All of yours + 2 or 3 from my ideas
Included 3 new eras: Neolithic (more "strategic" early game); Pré-classical (in order to extend the classical era without overloading it with technologies and to reduce the confuse tree); Colonial (an era between renaissance and industrial. A big lapse of time was not introduced in the tree and some civV players talked about it). All this would bring more techs and more diversity without making the science development too confuse and "tech crowded".

Hope you like, you can use whatever you want :)

By the way, as the neolithic era is going to be an option, I also created 2 more policy branches:
-Tribalism (early game) - is focused on a faster expansion and adds a bit of culture/happiness/faith. Good to start the game in a balanced way :)
- Imperialism (Classical era) - focused on a big empire management.

I'm also creating the RFEscenarios. Please tell me if its possible to make some "appears at turn x" please. I do not undertand much of the programming of civV :confused:


I have studied (alone, not in school. I study natural sciences) History of Arts and Culture, so i am aware of what movements were the most important in history. I can make you a list of art movements and we can create the beneficts and corresponding techs for all of them. Please confirm if this is possible
 
Here is the promissed list. 1 means "must exist"; 0 means "should exist"; -1 means "can be removed"

Sometimes the concept "art" is changed by "culture" or a specific art type (Like architecture). It means that the concept exposed is to extense or is only applicable to that kind of art, respectivelly.

Neolithic Era:
0 -» Artcraft
1 -» "Venus" Sculptures
-1 -» Cave painting (occured before the neolithic era...)
0 -» Sacro-naturalistic culture
1 -» Megalithic Monuments

Ancient Era:
1 -» Artistic Pottery
0 -» Celtic Art
0 -» Mesopotamian Art

Pre-Classical Era:
0 -» Egyptian Art
0 -» Oriental Art
1 -» Hellenic Art

Classical Era:
1 -» Classical Art
-1 -» Paleochristian Art

Medieval Era:
-1 -» Byzantine Architecture
1 -» Romanesque Art
0 -» Monastic Culture
0 -» Islamic Art
1 -» Gothic Art

Renaissance Era:
1 -» Classical Art
1 -» Mannerism
0 -» Indian Art

Colonial Era:
1 -» Barroque
1 -» Rococo
1 -» Neoclassicism

Industrial Era:
1 -» Romantism
1 -» Realism and Naturalism (or only Realism)
1 -» Impressionism
1 -» Post-impressionism (can be merged with impressionism)
1 -» Art Noveau (can be merged with architecture and design)

Modern Era:
1 -» Modernism
-1 -» Fauvism and Expressionism
1 -» Abstract Art
-1 -» Dada Movement (or Dadaism)
1 -» Cubism
1 -» Futurism
-1 -» Neo Realism
0 -» Surrealism
1 -» Architecture and design (art deco + organicism)

Atomic Era:
1 -» Pop art
-1 -» Op art (and cinetic art, can be merged with pop art)
1 -» Post-modernism
0 -» Neomodernism

Information Era:
-1 -» High Tech (can be merged with post-impressionism)
-1 -» Contemporanism (does not exist. This conceot was invented by me to define what I tink is the art being made nowdays. As modernism broke with the canons, contemporanism will brake with the not theoryzed "canons" of pop art. pretty avant garde and prog... It is based on the music, poetry and drama made here in Leiria. In the game consists in a concept of a future art, for 2013-2050)


... That's it
 
I'm going to join to the document the other developments i have made. Have you already designed all the buildings? Can you send them to me?
 
the excel is not working in my pc so I just use this, I do not know what's the problem. Can I send you some print screns to your e-mail?
 
Hello to everyone and thankx for your marvelous work.

I think you are giving great ideas, but you are trying to insert in the broader concept of technologies a narrow and little scope concept. For instance, Celtic Art and Mesopothanian Art. I think it's more coherent to plainly put those two concepts inside a broader one like Ancient Art.

And if you want to be coherent you should first determine what will be the borders of the concept of culture and of art. Because if you are stressing art therefore you should demarcate from «general culture».

For example, imagine we interpret culture as the sum of the Art, consuetude, identity tradition, inovation on narratives, language and world views, science-culture link etc...

If you decide to take care of Art as a specific domain that can be approached in that way, by splitting it from «Culture», you should take it to the end. And i say this by demarcating art from «general culture». But if you stay on that track you can be tempted to do the same on other constituents of Culture. And if you do that, you can be at the end of the road, with «culture» being separated from the parts that represent it.

Best Regards,
 
lp_04 said:
give me your oppinion please
Click to expand...

It seems great. I'll check on it and do it.

Liztiago said:
Hello to everyone and thankx for your marvelous work.

I think you are giving great ideas, but you are trying to insert in the broader concept of technologies a narrow and little scope concept. For instance, Celtic Art and Mesopothanian Art. I think it's more coherent to plainly put those two concepts inside a broader one like Ancient Art.

And if you want to be coherent you should first determine what will be the borders of the concept of culture and of art. Because if you are stressing art therefore you should demarcate from «general culture».

For example, imagine we interpret culture as the sum of the Art, consuetude, identity tradition, inovation on narratives, language and world views, science-culture link etc...

If you decide to take care of Art as a specific domain that can be approached in that way, by splitting it from «Culture», you should take it to the end. And i say this by demarcating art from «general culture». But if you stay on that track you can be tempted to do the same on other constituents of Culture. And if you do that, you can be at the end of the road, with «culture» being separated from the parts that represent it.

Best Regards,
Click to expand...

Thank you for your post and opinion. My intrepertation of culture is
sum of the Art, consuetude, identity tradition, inovation on narratives, language and world views, science-culture link
Click to expand...
society values, society identity, society "strata" - strata is the way sedimentary rocks acumulate, I don't know enough English to have the real word for this, but stratification is a process in which sedimentary rocks dispose themselves into layers, just like a social pyramid. I could continue this list on and on... Culture is what defines a group of individuals, it's their identity. Personally I find Art to be related to Culture, I mean Art is related by how people see the world. Of course it is different, and I think we should consider it that way - Art differs from culture, it's a part of it. I hope I fully understand what you were trying to say, which didn't happened, probably, because of my English.

Defining borders is very important and it is one of the biggest mistakes Firaxis made in the development of this game - what are "Policies"? A mix. Of cultural aspects, ideologies, governments...

I think you have a point in saying that classifiying Ancient Art onto Mesoptanian Art and Celtic Art is wrong. We should probably either classify onto Ancient Art or use Art atributtes instead of geographical ones. Hope I used "onto" correctly. I probably didn't anyway but yeah, forget it.

Separating Culture from Art is a mistake. Art is a part of Culture. But scientific discoveries model Culture. And Art. That way I think our system is not completely illogical. Anyway Policies- they will be changed - not a mix anymore - should affect Art as they will represent culture, (seriously: how are there policies as Educated Elite? that doesn't make sense neither the effect: it's saying you have influence over allied city-states- other civilizations, but not ver your people :confused:.

Anyway, I would like to welcome you to the Civilzation Fanatics' Forums, and thank you for this great discussion topic, and for your contribute to this Project. Keep on posting, you will probably find more intersting discussions like this one over this Forum.

S.O.T MAHak said:
If you run out of ideas for the tech tree these list may help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_technologies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_historic_inventions
Click to expand...


Thank you! Some of them are a help, and I'll probably include them.
 
Liztiago said:
Hello to everyone and thankx for your marvelous work.

I think you are giving great ideas, but you are trying to insert in the broader concept of technologies a narrow and little scope concept. For instance, Celtic Art and Mesopothanian Art. I think it's more coherent to plainly put those two concepts inside a broader one like Ancient Art.

And if you want to be coherent you should first determine what will be the borders of the concept of culture and of art. Because if you are stressing art therefore you should demarcate from «general culture».

For example, imagine we interpret culture as the sum of the Art, consuetude, identity tradition, inovation on narratives, language and world views, science-culture link etc...

If you decide to take care of Art as a specific domain that can be approached in that way, by splitting it from «Culture», you should take it to the end. And i say this by demarcating art from «general culture». But if you stay on that track you can be tempted to do the same on other constituents of Culture. And if you do that, you can be at the end of the road, with «culture» being separated from the parts that represent it.

Best Regards,
Click to expand...



Liztiago, I understand your point very well. I'm not oputside the "culture" concept and "art" concept. What you saw in here were different concepts merged together to expand this new "art" feature. That was the main reason I've added the "0" and "-1". As the main art movements occured in the past few centuries, if we add only movements like "modernism" and "neoclassicism" the early game lose the "art" concept. That was the main reason for adding art names based on specific historical "civilizations". And I had the same problem as you are having.

But consider this: All the art movements named in that post that have no name of a specific region are mostly western. Creating "european" neoclassicism or "neoclassicism" is basically the same. Also, I ahve not found names for ancient specific art that are not related to a specific civilization. Consider this: or we remove the "mesopotamian art", "celtic art", ..., and the art becomes only related to the western civilization, or we add that art (maby with different names), and the game becomes more diverse (and better).

New names are always welcome :)

Note that this is just a small part of a bigger expansion, it does not define the mod. It was just an idea from me and I'm not even in the designing team.
 
In true i already visit this forum since long ago, but always as a guest. I decided to post because in latter months i became interested in making a mod from the grounds for CiV. Previously I only tweaked others mods for better balance and gameplay in my opinion but never published those changes.

Unfortunately, even with my sharp eyes in CiV for some time, I'm working with a small team in a big mod for an old game Industry Giant II, so there aren't lot's of leftovers for CiV. Maybe when the most demanding part of Industry Giant II ends I can be free to CiV.

Maybe in the last post i was not clear enough.

I agree with you Genghis.Khan when viewing what Firaxis has made to culture. Those nice perks that you obtain with social policies are only a nice gameplay mechanism that can add a new layer of decisions to your game. But on the other side they are a mixture between types and subtypes of government, public management, national identity, civ direction, etc.. etc.. that are in my opinion a misconception of reality, in the sense that some times they are using «historical names» to represent something from reality, with a largely unlikely framework that make things improper.

I like the job made by CCTP regarding social policies.

I understand you lp_04, but you can abstract specific art movements with era names. For instance: Ancient Art, Classical Art, Medieval Art, Renaissance Art, Modern Art, Contemporary Art, etc... without the movements names or drifts.

Or you can replace the «basic art inventions» in the tech tree like Drama/Poetry, Music, with specific techs related to Art. For instance, you could have imagine Ancient Poetry, Classical Poetry, Medieval Poetry.... Or Classical Music, Medieval Music, Modern Music....

The advantage of this approach is that will give more coherence to the tech tree, i hate to see Philosophy in the Classical era or Bureaucracy in an advanced era. What I'm trying to say is that even you consider that Philosophy appeared in Classical Age when you research it, it looks that you just have finished with that. But should evolve to Medieval Philosophy that should be a prerequisite for Medieval Theology, just for curiosity in Middle Ages Philosophy was considered the Ancilla Theologiae (theology handmaid). Who says this could say those techs representing the evolution of a determined field that will end to unlock buildings or other stuff.

The big desadvantage is for you to have a big tech tree. I also like the job done by CCTP but playing with those separated techs in the UI it's a little awkward. I think techs should be positioned in the tech tree in virtue of their type. But even though that approach will result in a very big tech tree maybe redundant.

The only way for me to that be viable is not only to make sense, but making gameplay even better. Sometimes good ideas to print reality in the game that modders apply end by not making gameplay better:crazyeye:. But i think it's possible.
 
Liztiago said:
In true i already visit this forum since long ago, but always as a guest. I decided to post because in latter months i became interested in making a mod from the grounds for CiV. Previously I only tweaked others mods for better balance and gameplay in my opinion but never published those changes.

Unfortunately, even with my sharp eyes in CiV for some time, I'm working with a small team in a big mod for an old game Industry Giant II, so there aren't lot's of leftovers for CiV. Maybe when the most demanding part of Industry Giant II ends I can be free to CiV.

Maybe in the last post i was not clear enough.

I agree with you Genghis.Khan when viewing what Firaxis has made to culture. Those nice perks that you obtain with social policies are only a nice gameplay mechanism that can add a new layer of decisions to your game. But on the other side they are a mixture between types and subtypes of government, public management, national identity, civ direction, etc.. etc.. that are in my opinion a misconception of reality, in the sense that some times they are using «historical names» to represent something from reality, with a largely unlikely framework that make things improper.

I like the job made by CCTP regarding social policies.

I understand you lp_04, but you can abstract specific art movements with era names. For instance: Ancient Art, Classical Art, Medieval Art, Renaissance Art, Modern Art, Contemporary Art, etc... without the movements names or drifts.

Or you can replace the «basic art inventions» in the tech tree like Drama/Poetry, Music, with specific techs related to Art. For instance, you could have imagine Ancient Poetry, Classical Poetry, Medieval Poetry.... Or Classical Music, Medieval Music, Modern Music....

The advantage of this approach is that will give more coherence to the tech tree, i hate to see Philosophy in the Classical era or Bureaucracy in an advanced era. What I'm trying to say is that even you consider that Philosophy appeared in Classical Age when you research it, it looks that you just have finished with that. But should evolve to Medieval Philosophy that should be a prerequisite for Medieval Theology, just for curiosity in Middle Ages Philosophy was considered the Ancilla Theologiae (theology handmaid). Who says this could say those techs representing the evolution of a determined field that will end to unlock buildings or other stuff.

The big desadvantage is for you to have a big tech tree. I also like the job done by CCTP but playing with those separated techs in the UI it's a little awkward. I think techs should be positioned in the tech tree in virtue of their type. But even though that approach will result in a very big tech tree maybe redundant.

The only way for me to that be viable is not only to make sense, but making gameplay even better. Sometimes good ideas to print reality in the game that modders apply end by not making gameplay better:crazyeye:. But i think it's possible.
Click to expand...

About Policies that is exactly my point.

Can you give me a link to CCTP's mod?

About the your other idea, I really think it should be adapted. Technology is supposed to represent evolution, when progress occurs. Maybe instead of Classical Music and Medieval Music you could have Traditional Music and Gregorian Notation. I hope to do that without expanding the Tech Tree a lot. Maybe I'll have to include more turns for balance purposes as I'll slow down Research Rate even more.
 
I think that having more turns for Age it's really a good thing since you can enjoy the immersion of specific Ages along with a potential improvement on the effects of your decisions
 
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