[GS] Updating and reworking Vanilla and RnF Civ

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Sphinxes can be placed adjacent to each other now.
 
Sagax said:
Depends on whether they follow any sort of direction-facing logic. A corridor of guardian sphinxes can look pretty neat. But if they face random directions, then yeah - it will be a weird mess.
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Ondolindë said:
I hadn’t thought about that, thanks, so let’s hope they do line up neatly.
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That's a situation where a re-load to change the RNG would be thoroughly justified.
 
Eagle Pursuit said:
Sphinxes can be placed adjacent to each other now.
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Okay. I’m genuinely excited now. That plus immunity to floods is actually a big buff. Yes, Egypt are still niche. But it just became a really interesting niche.

Loving this expansion.
 
It seems that they have tweaked Spain after all: now inquisitors removed 100% of others religions. Updates are always welcome, but for me Treasure Fleet bonuses must be recalculated or increase that +4 combat vs other religions in order to make a difference.
 
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Tsikhe (unique Georgian walls) gets bonus to Tourism and Faith during Golden Eras.

Even with that buff, it won't be enough to lift Tamar from the scrappy heap (at least her near-perpetual Golden Ages are still the best thing about her).
 
The huge increase in Barbarian Camp spawn has got to be good for Gilgabro.
 
Overall, I think a lot of the balance changes to the existing Civs have been good.

Okay, so other than England, no-one has been massively been reworked. But some Civs have still received some significant changes, even if they look small at first.

A lot of Civs have also benefited from various backdoor / indirect buffs. In particular, Khmer, who I've had a blast playing before, now look way more interesting. I think India could also be very strong with the changes to Stepwells, the general buff to higher pop cities, and the fact their UU doesn't require resources.

Strong Civs, e.g. Rome, Sythia, are still strong Civs. Are they as strong as some of the new (and maybe OP) Civs from GS? Dunno, but I doubt it. There probably is some power-creep in GS, but I don't think it's necessarily a problem - i.e. I don't think Vanilla Civs need to be buffed to account for that, or the new Civs necessarily need to be nerfed, although it looks like maybe Hungary and Maori need another look. Still, balancing the new Civs is probably a topic for another thread...

Anyway, my more detailed additional thoughts:
  • England: Man, I'm probably never going to be happy with England, am I? I still like the changes to England in GS, particularly the way England is now particularly good at building Swords and Knights because of its bonus for Iron production; however, I think they are still a bit let down by the Royal Navy Dockyard. It's not a powerful District in its own right (compare it to the Cothon), but it particularly suffers from the RND's +1 Movement Bonus being nerfed.

  • Personally, I'd like to see either the +1 Movement Bonus fixed, or just remove the bonus and have WotW give England a +1 Movement for Naval Units once England researches (say) Metal Casings or Square Rigging. I'd also like to see the RND just be a bit punchier - perhaps +25% production to Naval and Land Melee Units to Cities with an RND and on a Foreign Continent (that would synergise with Vicky's LA, and would also make the RND more useful for Eleanor).

  • I mean, I'm not about to kick-off a whole "Fix England" thing again - jeez, that's a whole 12 months of my life I'll never get back - but year, I think England is still not quite right. Sorry FXS.

  • Spain, America, Georgia: I'm loving the change to Spain - first, because nerfing Inquisitors generally is great because they were way too powerful; but then letting Spain keep the 100% reduction to other Civs makes Spain really standout. It means though that Spain is really very focus on Religion and Faith now - which is totally cool with me, but perhaps disappointing if you wanted them focused more on trade or science or whatever.

  • America's Buff is very flavourful, and in my view changes them from super boring to quite interesting. Rough Riders also don't require Resources, which is very cool.

  • Georgia's buff to their Tsikhe is genius - great synergy with their existing strengths. It's hard to get to the Tsikhe is hard to get to, given you have to build Ancient and Medieval Walls. But you can use the Limes Card, and I think the Tsikhe + Monarchy is good enough to make this worthwhile in a few cities at least. Overall, I think Georgia is a real winner given envoys / Suzerain is now more valuable given Suzerain gives you Diplomatic Favour and some Suzerain Bonuses have been buffed (specifically, the CS UIs).

  • Russia, Japan, China and Egypt: the changes to these Civs seem to be mostly about flavour. But that said, I do really like their changes and think they're fun. I still feel like China (and maybe Korea) need a second UU (light cav for China, naval for Korea), but that's probably just some personal and very particular view point I have. Neither needs another UU for balance reasons.

  • Egypt is a possible exception here - I think Egypt's buffs are more than flavour, and could actually be quite significant. Being able to settle and build on rivers with impunity could be powerful, although I guess it depends on how common floods are. Being able to build Sphinx adjacent to other Sphinx is very strong.

  • Netherlands: I think these guys are okay in terms of power level post GS, but they do feel a little bland. Their bonus to Harbours in particular feels very "nothing". I think these guys do need a bit of love, specifically around their Harbours, so they have more reason to build them over Commercial Hubs. Polders are still very strong and don't need a buff for gameplay reasons, but for flavour they should somehow connect with the new environmental mechanics. I've no idea how that would work though.

  • France: the Chateau is just terrible. It needs a buff. Seriously, if you're France, you'd be better building some City States Unique Improvement over your own.

  • Norway: I've gone backwards and forwards on these guys, but ultimately I do think they need a bit of a buff post GS. I'd like them UA to give them +50% production for both Naval and Land Melee units, which would help encourage Norway to settle on Coasts, and help them get out Swords and Berserkers more easily (all the better to pillage with). The buff to Pillaging generally does not seem to have really buffed Norway - given, really, they're not actually all that better at pillaging than anyone else past the early game - and the change seems to be broken generally anyway.

  • Cree: I know I've said this like a billion times, but the Cree really should start with a free recon unit to offset the additional cost of building the blighters.
 
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acluewithout said:
Overall, I think a lot of the balance changes to the existing Civs have been good.

Okay, so other than England, no-one has been massively been reworked. But some Civs have still received some significant changes, even if they look small at first.

A lot of Civs have also benefited from various backdoor / indirect buffs. In particular, Khmer, who I've had a blast playing before, now look way more interesting. I think India could also be very strong with the changes to Stepwells, the general buff to higher pop cities, and the fact their UU doesn't require resources.

Strong Civs, e.g. Rome, Sythia, are still strong Civs. Are they as strong as some of the new (and maybe OP) Civs from GS? Dunno, but I doubt it. There probably is some power-creep in GS, but I don't think it's necessarily a problem - i.e. I don't think Vanilla Civs need to be buffed to account for that, or the new Civs necessarily need to be nerfed, although it looks like maybe Hungary and Maori need another look. Still, balancing the new Civs is probably a topic for another thread...

Anyway, my more detailed additional thoughts:
  • England: Man, I'm probably never going to be happy with England, am I? I still like the changes to England in GS, particularly the way England is now particularly good at building Swords and Knights because of its bonus for Iron production; however, I think they are still a bit let down by the Royal Navy Dockyard. It's not a powerful District in its own right (compare it to the Cothon), but it particularly suffers from the RND's +1 Movement Bonus being nerfed.

  • Personally, I'd like to see either the +1 Movement Bonus fixed, or just remove the bonus and have WotW give England a +1 Movement for Naval Units once England researches (say) Metal Casings or Square Rigging. I'd also like to see the RND just be a bit punchier - perhaps +25% production to Naval and Land Melee Units to Cities with an RND and on a Foreign Continent (that would synergise with Vicky's LA, and would also make the RND more useful for Eleanor).

  • I mean, I'm not about to kick-off a whole "Fix England" thing again - jeez, that's a whole 12 months of my life I'll never get back - but year, I think England is still not quite right. Sorry FXS.

  • Spain, America, Georgia: I'm loving the change to Spain - first, because nerfing Inquisitors generally is great because they were way too powerful; but then letting Spain keep the 100% reduction to other Civs makes Spain really standout. It means though that Spain is really very focus on Religion and Faith now - which is totally cool with me, but perhaps disappointing if you wanted them focused more on trade or science or whatever.

  • America's Buff is very flavourful, and in my view changes them from super boring to quite interesting. Rough Riders also don't require Resources, which is very cool.

  • Georgia's buff to their Tsikhe is genius - great synergy with their existing strengths. It's hard to get to the Tsikhe is hard to get to, given you have to build Ancient and Medieval Walls. But you can use the Limes Card, and I think the Tsikhe + Monarchy is good enough to make this worthwhile in a few cities at least. Overall, I think Georgia is a real winner given envoys / Suzerain is now more valuable given Suzerain gives you Diplomatic Favour and some Suzerain Bonuses have been buffed (specifically, the CS UIs).

  • Russia, Japan, China and Egypt: the changes to these Civs seem to be mostly about flavour. But that said, I do really like their changes and think they're fun. I still feel like China (and maybe Korea) need a second UU (light cav for China, naval for Korea), but that's probably just some personal and very particular view point I have. Neither needs another UU for balance reasons.

  • Egypt is a possible exception here - I think Egypt's buffs are more than flavour, and could actually be quite significant. Being able to settle and build on rivers with impunity could be powerful, although I guess it depends on how common floods are. Being able to build Sphinx adjacent to other Sphinx is very strong.

  • Netherlands: I think these guys are okay in terms of power level post GS, but they do feel a little bland. Their bonus to Harbours in particular feels very "nothing". I think these guys do need a bit of love, specifically around their Harbours, so they have more reason to build them over Commercial Hubs. Polders are still very strong and don't need a buff for gameplay reasons, but for flavour they should somehow connect with the new environmental mechanics. I've no idea how that would work though.

  • France: the Chateau is just terrible. It needs a buff. Seriously, if you're France, you'd be better building some City States Unique Improvement over your own.

  • Norway: I've gone backwards and forwards on these guys, but ultimately I do think they need a bit of a buff post GS. I'd like them UA to give them +50% production for both Naval and Land Melee units, which would help encourage Norway to settle on Coasts, and help them get out Swords and Berserkers more easily (all the better to pillage with). The buff to Pillaging generally does not seem to have really buffed Norway - given, really, they're not actually all that better at pillaging than anyone else past the early game - and the change seems to be broken generally anyway.

  • Cree: I know I've said this like a billion times, but the Cree really should start with a free recon unit to offset the additional cost of building the blighters.
Click to expand...

I’ve been thinking about France and maybe the Chateaux could be changed to being one per city, but holds a great work of any type and then +1 culture for each great work in the city?

Nice synergy with Eleanor and more space for Cahokian mounds
 
To be honest. I think making all unique improvements one per city and making them more powerful would fit the game better. Something about spamming the unique improvements just upsets me. Like it breaks the immersion slightly
 
bbbt said:
Or maybe it's just straight up "when Mongols attack Japan, hurricane appears"
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DJ_Tanner said:
A "when a Mongol unit first enters a sea tile within 3 tiles of a Japanese city, a hurricane appears" would be the greatest addition to the game ever.
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Or when Spain attacks England... :lol:

Eagle Pursuit said:
The huge increase in Barbarian Camp spawn has got to be good for Gilgabro.
Click to expand...

That seems to be hit and miss so far. One Civ gets all the barbs, while another gets none. No good for Gilgabro if he's the latter.
 
I think it was a good move (as much as I liked vanquishing heathen religions!) to reduce inquisitor charges down to 75%. And an even better decision to leave Spain's at 100%! :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
So, I finally got around to playing my old favorite, Egypt, and I enjoy the flood buff very much. In fact, in my game, the Nile flooded almost every ten turns, so it was like true to life. Memphis, a desert city w/ Pyramids, grew from nothing overnight, and it was too cool.
 
Phoenix1595 said:
So, I finally got around to playing my old favorite, Egypt, and I enjoy the flood buff very much. In fact, in my game, the Nile flooded almost every ten turns, so it was like true to life. Memphis, a desert city w/ Pyramids, grew from nothing overnight, and it was too cool.
Click to expand...

I think it's great if they have rigged the Nile (I presume the first river Egypt starts on will always be called the Nile) to flood more than most.
 
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