Upon Conquest

[thomas.berubeg]

I captured the Grigori Capital of Midgard, and, as Any good Bannor, I kept it to churn out Soldier after soldier for the crusade.

and it struck me like a, well... something

it feels really wierd that this former capital has nothing to differentiate it from any other city. if nothing else, wouldn't it have the ruins of the original civ's palace? perhaps one of the Palace mana, could be provided, or a military bonus, or cultural one, or something...

thomas

 

[BenjaminEmbarec]

Ooooo I like that idea! But personally I feel that it doesn't go far enough... Perhaps if the unhappiness or unhealth falls below optimal, there's a 10-50% chance per turn that the city will rebell under a minor leader for the orriginal civ... or just as barbarians.

Would make for a bit of fun. ;3 And why not turn the captured palace into a "Summer palace" clone, reduced maintenance in nearby cities and like you said 1-2 of the orriginal mana types. Naturally some "efficiency" of the orriginal palace would be lost to looters [read it would be unballanced] so it wouldn't give all three orriginal mana....

Mmmm you could do alot with that..

 

[civ_king]

I like this Idea, I think it should be 2 per civ palace and make sure there are duplicates for the mana

 

[Skitters]

presumably you'd have to have some check where the city was the last belonging to the civ - otherwise you could in theory end up with a string of bonuses by targeting the capital on your campaign (ie; you take Midgard, and then take Costa Del Sol when that becomes the new capital)

 

[Ahwaric]

Exactly. A palace ruins in every city? Or just in the last one that palace was in, the small one in the far north that has constructed palisade only and got a palace for one turn before the city was finally captured as the last city of the civ.

I like the idea, but no idea how to implement it to avoid the above problems.
Maybe a special building added in the very first city founded by the civ and kept if conquered by another civ?

 

[xienwolf]

You could remove 1 mana from the palace and instead place it on the city tile of the capital itself. Then when a capital moves, you delete the mana at the location of the previous palace (thus if the civ is destroyed, nothing will ever run to delete that mana again, so it becomes a permanant source of thier Civ Mana type)

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Couldn't it run a check to determine whether it was the first city built by the civ when it is captured? if so, give it, upon capture, a building called "grigori" (continueing my example) palace. this building would have a small income/culture as well as original mana.

Or, alternativly, keeps a counter for the total number of palaces built by the civ, and only add the building for the First time the palace is lost.


However... maybe the counter should reset after a certain amount of time? if a civ survives the wat, though without it's original capital, shouldn't the new capital eventually become as opulent as the first was? as identified with the civilization. (oh, and it should reset if the civ voluntarily moves the capital)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Does a civ really need to always have a palace? It might be more interesting if you forced them to recapture their old one or build a new one instead of getting a new one fro free. You could make each Palace a civ-specific World Wonder instead of a national wonder, and thus allow it t be captured. You could give the other civs a lesser UB of each wonder if you don't want them to get all the mana or other benefits.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

I like that idea even more.

But. wouldn't that mean the Elohim would get (with thier tolerant trait) the full wonder?

 

[arkham4269]

Couldn't there be a 'national' wonder of Rebuild Palace that would fix up an old palace captured? It could be built multiple times but only in a city with an old capitol. Then it could have different capabilities to a Summer Palace.

I agree that once a Civ's original capitol is captured, the losing Civ needs to build a new Palace. That just makes sense.

However, this does bring up some points about the problems I have with the current vassal system. First, while Orbis doesn't have any of the Fall into Revolution code, I could see rebuilding a Palace could have good and bad effects.

Good Effects: Rebuilding it might appease the newly captured folk by showing them that their culture is valued a bit.
Bad Effects: Rebuilding it would remind the newly captured folk of old glory and would give ambitious rebels a place to want to capture.

Now I've commented on this before, but the current vassal system sucks. Right now you can't make vassals on your own continent unless you make a Civ your attacking capitulate. Well that's not always what I (the player want) and in a historical, socio-political realm it may not be the smart thing to do.

What I'd want to be able to do is take out the entire Civ and THEN make their cities into a vassal (and perhaps choosing which ones I want to give back) because I would hope that now that each race should (will?) have a G/N/E leader that when I vassalize them, they'd have the minor leader that mirrors my alignment. I mean why would I want to almost capture the Sheaim as a Good Civ and accept the murdering, suicidal whacko to be my vassal? No, better to take them out and INSTALL the leader I want. Countries historically do it all the time. The US is particularly good at this...though usually with poor results over time. Alas, without any of the FiRe code, the consequences of that can't really be game-played.

Anyway, I think that perhaps when a Capital City is captured, a 'Ruined Capital' is created based on which Civ. Then a national wonder 'Rebuild Capitol' should be built. I also think that Civ is later vassalized, the capital would return to that city (regardless of size) unless that Civ has already built that capital in which case I guess the ruined capital would then have to disappear so not to give 'extra' benefits.

 

[kmdavis]

Here's an idea:

Each civ has an "Old Palace" (name should be different for each civ, like "Palace of the Ancestors", "Whitehall", "Versailles", etc) that gives a small maintenance bonus, defense bonus, and quite a bit of culture.

When the palace is moved, either deliberately, or by conquest, the old palace is built in the city that used to have the palace. But this only happens once per civ.

When you conquer a former capital, with the old palace national wonder, you also get a "subjugated bureaucracy (or administration, etc)" building, it generates unhappiness, unhealthiness, a maintenance penalty, and generates culture for the old civ! After several turns (a decade, basically) it is replaced with a "cooperative bureaucracy" generates a minimal amount of unhappiness. Later on (a generation) it is replace with a "district administration" which generates some happiness, gives a maintenance bonus, culture, and 1 mana.

So basically, when you capture a former capital, at first, it's a liability, but gradually, it transitions to become a regional capital.

A few scenarios, using (for sake of familiarity) england, france, and spain.

1) england captures paris. instantly, the french palace becomes "versailles", and about 100 turns later, paris starting generating 1 mana (umm... is "too many vowels" a type of mana?) meanwhile, the french built a new palace in nice. eventually, england takes that from france too, but no old palace or administration is built, since they already exist.

2) france moves their palace from paris to rousillon. instantly, versailles is built in paris. a few years later, spain captures rousillon, but since versailles has already been built, no old palace or administration is built in rousillon. eventually, spain drags england into the war, and the redcoats march into paris. they keep the old palace, and add an adminstration to it. England Prevails!

3) when england marched into paris, they decided the eiffel tower violated their building codes, so they raze the entire city. france rebuilds their palace is nice, just in time for it to be nicely conquered, and transformed into versailles + admin. Then france reconquers nice, and they behead the bureaucrats who had cooperated with the enemy.

4) england captures paris, gets old palace + admin. france gets assistance from spain. spain captures paris, and razes it to the ground. england captures nice, and gets a brand new old palace + admin. maybe.

 

[arkham4269]

Here's an idea:

I like this idea. It does bring up a sort of unrelated idea. I like to play Europa Universalis and I wish Civ would port in a lot of ideas from it. The biggest is that there should be penalties for just going to war just for the sake of it. In EU, all countries have traditional (historical) enemies and thus have built in Casus Bellies. Obviously the Clan would have a built in CB against the Bannor and the Sidar should have one against the Calabim and Scions being they have 'undead' among them.

Anyway, going to war with folks you have no CB with and especially if you have current treaties, causes unrest among your own people. You can still do it, but it's generally bad. However, events can change things. Remember all those 'bad marriage' events? They could be used as a pretext for war.

...but I digress a bit. In EU when playing the early part of the game, most of the 'historical' countries aren't at their full border potential. For example France doesn't start with eastern France. However, in that game you have the option of making vassals out of territory or you can absorb them (and off the top of my head I can't remember the term for that)

Taking out a civilization by conquest generally makes all the other Civ's in EU worried as it should in Civ. I mean take over one Civ, you may do it again. Again without the FiRe code, in regular civ, there isn't to much penalty for suddenly taking over cities that were once your implacable foe. Sure you have some turns of disorder but no rebellions or riots.

Anyway (getting to the point) over time in EU, if you make the attempt to be really nice to a vassal by giving gifts and the like (and if your culture is way higher than theirs) the vassal will come forward and say, "You know what? We want to be part of your culture!" and then you can peacefully (and without other Civs freaking out) amalgamate.

Getting back to kmdavis, the idea of an old palace being at first a problem but later being more and more useful dove-tails into that idea. At first the new government is just a veneer for the occupations but over time it grows more and more legitimate.

I do hope that the FiRe code gets fiddled with. That or some sort of code that would track captured cities and if certain things happened (X amount of battles lost or change in the gold spent on culture or too many military units built in that city) they would riot and go into dis-order again. That in turn might cause other cities that used to be separate to go into disorder.

Plus, has anyone ever had a vassal break-away? I vaguely think it happened to me once, but I can't be sure.

 

[kmdavis]

I like to play Europa Universalis

I love EU3. I play the Magna Mundi mod.

option of making vassals out of territory or you can absorb them (and off the top of my head I can't remember the term for that)

"releasing vassals" and "diplomatic annexation"

To simulate nationalistic unrest in FFH/Orbis, how about this (similar to my prior post):
When you conquer a city with less than 10 pop, you get a "conquered town" building, gives unhappiness, unhealthiness, and a maintenance & commerce penalty. A city between 10 and 20 pop gives "conquered city", with twice the penalties. Above 20 pop gives again twice (4x total) the penalties (except maintenance), and the maintenance penalty now applies to nearby cities as well. These buildings also have a random chance to spawn barbarians ("freedom fighters") right outside the wall (you Do have a wall, don't you? -- oops!)
Cities above 20 pop, however, also get a "Traitorous Minority" building that gives an nice industy bonus (+20%?). This building has a random chance to spawn a spy type unit. not a rat catcher, but something similar, with it's own flavor.
After a while, these buildings are replaced with buildings that give a smaller penalty/bonus, and eventually, those are removed altogether.

Basic idea is that for awhile, you're required to heavily garrison your new conquests, and they'll be a drain on your economy for years. But eventually, they'll become resigned to their fate, and their children won't know anything different.

 

[Ahwaric]

I think we should remember thata the palace is more just a building and government center.

In FfH it is a building that provides some of civ characteristics, so it can't be in fact lost.
Mana from palace represents magic affinity the PEOPLE have. So they should not be able to loose it. I think it would be best if we leave the current palaces alone.

But maybe all civs should be able to build a regional center for a conquered civ. One per civ, requiring the appropiate "nationality" of the founder (like tolerant, but for everyone).
I think the building should just provide one mana, the one listed first, as it is the one that is the most connected with the civ. Maybe refined for mechanos?
These should be national wonders, requiring a big city. So you can have only one per conquered civ (but it the civ was partitioned, it could be build by two or more partitioners).

But I can see several problems:
It promotes conquest... again. I tried to make Orbis mopre builder friendly, so maybe we can afford it.
That is a hell lot of buildings (one extra for every civ, and I do not know if I will be able to make them use the same buildingclass...)

In general, I would like conquests to get the following changes:

• you can re-create destroyed civ from the cities you own founded by it (so vassal on own continent). Currently the culture is destroyed after the civ is eliminated, so it needs to be re-created.
• tolerant leaders can keep civ-unique yields (currently they do not), but can't build normal palaces except their own one
• minor palaces (above) can be created
• you can only use it if the civ is not your flavour enemy - so no calabim & sheaim units & buildings for elohim leader, no clan for bannor etc

Unfortunatelly, 90% of it is beyond my coding abilities. If anyone can code at least part of it, I would be obliged