US vs China

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

I only added the "other" category, so that a discussion could ensue.

We have had a quantum leap in posters since civ-3 came out, and, as you can see, have over 130+ people on-line right now.

You can't change what people want to vote for.

 

[Fayadi]

Ok if i am wrong i am sorry,it seemed strange out of a sudden jumped to 34,it did not happen in a constant basis!?

 

[stormerne]

I pity everyone who has cast a vote in this poll.
None of you will ever know who contributed more in the history of Mankind.
None of you will ever be able to measure it.
None of you know how to measure it.
But the saddest thing is that you all seem to think it matters.

 

[sonorakitch]

I actually think you could compare the contributions both nations have made towards the advancement of mankind. To ask the question "the greatest civilization" is impossible....no one person could ever answer that. With that said, I would like to include my reasons for my pro-USA opinion.

I think China has given the world more than what most think. Gunpowder, paper, etc. There is no doubt that China has the longest continued presence on this earth, and it has been indeed a glorious civilization. But the most impact towards todays thought and behavior, technology, and general influence? There isn't a question in my mind that it would be the United States over China. Again, not the greatest civilization, but certainly more influential than China in modern times. Let us not forget China was isolationistic and inward looking for all but about 20 years of its 4000 year history. So, that is my response.

Fayadi, what part of Shanghai do you live in? I visited your beautiful country last year, and spent a great deal of time along the Bund and in Pudong. A good friend is there now studying at the Fudan University, teaching English. I hope to return in May.

~Chris

 

[DarkHound]

In this post, I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you that China is or is not the greatest.

But I'd like to point out the fact that China has not been isolationist for "all but 20 of its 4000 years" One of the greatest trade routes of all time was the Silk road. This trade route threaded through China, through the Middle east, and all the way to Rome. Goods, as well as culture and religion flowed through the Silk route for centuries. Relics of this route remain in China to this day, and it is an enduring symbol of contact between East and West.

Originally posted by sonorakitch
I actually think you could compare the contributions both nations have made towards the advancement of mankind. To ask the question "the greatest civilization" is impossible....no one person could ever answer that. With that said, I would like to include my reasons for my pro-USA opinion.

I think China has given the world more than what most think. Gunpowder, paper, etc. There is no doubt that China has the longest continued presence on this earth, and it has been indeed a glorious civilization. But the most impact towards todays thought and behavior, technology, and general influence? There isn't a question in my mind that it would be the United States over China. Again, not the greatest civilization, but certainly more influential than China in modern times. Let us not forget China was isolationistic and inward looking for all but about 20 years of its 4000 year history. So, that is my response.

Fayadi, what part of Shanghai do you live in? I visited your beautiful country last year, and spent a great deal of time along the Bund and in Pudong. A good friend is there now studying at the Fudan University, teaching English. I hope to return in May.

~Chris

 

[sonorakitch]

Darkhound,

I agree that the silk road was a great trade route. But I think that was more a result of Europeans contacting China than China contacting Europeans. In fact, I think it is arguable on whether or not China even wanted the interaction. I would say this is comparable to China in the late 1800's, during the Boxer Rebellion and the Opium wars. China was certainly not isolated in the sense of the Incans or the Aborigines, but may very well have preferred no outside intervention at all.

~Chris

 

[DarkHound]

Chris, I am surprised you know so much about Chinese history are you Chinese? But the Silk road was not primarily interaction taken on by the West. Traders journeyed both ways, and what Persians and Europeans received was traded for an equal value by the Chinese. Trading is naturally a two way thing. It can also be argued that Chinese initiated the Silk Road. The following passage is from http://www.ess.uci.edu/~oliver/silk.html



"On the return journey, Zhang Qian and his delegation were again captured, and it was not until 125 B.C. that they arrived back in Changan. The emperor was much interested by what they found, however, and more expeditions were sent out towards the West over the following years. After a few failures, a large expedition managed to obtain some of the so-called `heavenly horses', which helped transform the Han cavalry. These horses have been immortalised in the art of the period, one of the best examples being the small bronze `flying horse' found at Wuwei in the Gansu Corridor, now used as the emblem of the China International Travel Service. Spurred on by their discoveries, the Han missions pushed further westwards, and may have got as far as Persia. They brought back many objects from these regions, in particular some of the religious artwork from the Gandharan culture, and other objects of beauty for the emperor. By this process, the route to the west was opened up. Zhang Qian is still seen by many to be the father of the Silk Road. "

"In the early 1400s, a sailor named Zheng He (with a fleet of some 300-plus ships)sailed as far west as Mogadishu and Jiddah, and he may (or may not) have gotten to Madagascar. This is nearly 100 years before Columbus had the idea of trying to sail to Asia the long way around. But once the sailors came back, the trips were never followed up on. Conservative scholars at court failed to see the importance of them. For the first time in history, China was turning inwards, clinging to an incorrect interpretation of an outmoded philosophy."

Perhaps China has been isolationist in the past. Sure from 1500 to 1800's. But I don't think it's accurate to say it has been so for all but 20 years of its 4000 year history (actually, its history may be longer)

Originally posted by sonorakitch
Darkhound,

I agree that the silk road was a great trade route. But I think that was more a result of Europeans contacting China than China contacting Europeans. In fact, I think it is arguable on whether or not China even wanted the interaction. I would say this is comparable to China in the late 1800's, during the Boxer Rebellion and the Opium wars. China was certainly not isolated in the sense of the Incans or the Aborigines, but may very well have preferred no outside intervention at all.

~Chris

 

[Whiskey Priest]

Chinese Government has existed for bout 51 years.
American Government has existed for bout 225 years.

 

[sonorakitch]

Darkhound,

Thanks for the links. I am not Chinese, but lived in Hong Kong for several years, traveled through China numerous times (going back in March), and speak some Mandarin. I definetely have a great interest in China.

Yes, I see your point. I think it should be noted that I am pointing more towards government sanctioned interaction, and coherant national policies of interaction rather than individual exploration and trade. I do agree with your premise, however, than China was not entirely isolationists.

~Chris

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I am actually amused that some ppl would think China has almost always been isolationist thru out most of its long and sometimes bloody history. You seem to have forgotten to mention the Tang, one of the most outward-looking, militaristic and expansionist of all the Chinese dynasties.
The Tang was actually a Sino-Turkish house and had no cultural problems (initially) with being a Turkish qaqhan as well as being a Chinese emperor. Unlike traditional Chinese emperors in later times, the Tang emperors were well-versed in horsemanship and the military arts and were very outward-looking.
They had no qualms about employing foreigners of note to lead the Tang armies. E.g. An Lushan, a Sogdian, commanded 200000 frontier troops when he rebelled against the Tang. Kao Chi-Sheh (something like that; can't remember), a Korean, commanded the Tang army that was defeated by the Arabs in Central Asia.
The city of Chang'an had 1 million inhabitants and large numbers of foreign-born residents - Uighurs, Sogdians, Turks, Nestorians, Arabs, Persians and so on. In the southern seaport of Guangzhou, half a million Arabs lived there, trading. Foreign arts flourished. Polo, a Persian sport, was popular. This was the period when the Chinese were most open to foreign influences.
Unfortunately, the Tang were weakened by rebellion and after that, the devolution of power to regional governors. Had they held on for 1-2 more centuries, who knows? Pity.

 

[sonorakitch]

SKM,

Your point is well taken. Please consider however, the Tang Dynasty lasted from about 600-900, but really began to crumble around 800ad or so. So you are talking about 200 years out of 4000 of agreeably expanionistic overtones. So while I have aknowledged that I was mistaken when I wrote of 3980 years of total isolationism, the real fact is that most of China's 4000 year history has been isolationist in nature. Again, I agreed that my blanket statement was indeed incorrect. But to suggest that 150 years out of 4000 is evidence of a interventionist/expansionistic civilization is absurd. It would be similar to stating in a hundred years that the U.S. was an alchohol free nation, even though prohibition lasted only 20 years out of its 225 year history.

SKM, I do understand your point, however, and thank you for pointing out the Tang Dynasty. Certainly an interesting one to study, no matter how short lived.

~Chris

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I was only quoting the Tang as an example for Chinese receptiveness to foreign ideas. The Qin and Han were also expansionistic. Plus the Southern Song were pretty commerical - Song ships traded all the way to India and East Africa. In the early Ming, the emperor launched naval expeditions overseas; some sailed all the way to East Africa and composed of 10s of thousands of people. And the Qing too were definitely expansionistic - taking Mongolia, Xinjiang and Tibet - and keeping an eye on the Russians.

I think it's only during the late Ming and the earlier phase of the present Communist govt that China was really pursuing a really tough isolationist line. Also pls remember the geographical isolation of China, so it's pretty hard to be internationalist when there wasn't any nation of comparable size within the region.

Anyway I feel silly arguing this in a silly poll like this. It's like comparing apples and oranges. America and China each had made their own contributions to human progress in their own timeframe. So there. :crazyeyes

 

[Juize]

This kind of poll is stupid.
It's extremely difficult to compare 2 nations from different time periods.
It would be extremely difficult to compare they even in present.
I'm not voting.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Fayadhi, did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason no-one is willing to compare China to America is because China is a 3rd world nation, and America is The industrial super-giant of the world? Now don't get me wrong, you Chinese can really crank out cheap, hand-made trinkets of no significant technological sophistication what-soever, but when it comes to real manufacturing capacity, you just don't have any.

As an aside, I'd like to point out to the rest of the world that the reason so many young Chinese men like Fayadhi are discovering the Internet is because there are damn few young Chinese women for them to discover. You see, in China, when a couple finds out that the woman is having her second child, she has to go have an abortion. (Not making this up, folks, it's the LAW!) If she has a girl first, her husband will often 'accidentally' kill the child, so he can have a male heir. Experts agree that these two factors will combine to allow the Chinese to rapidly achieve their dream of a people-free China in just a few generations.

But back to the issue of why America and China cannot be compared. In America, people are allowed not only to choose their leaders, but to protest their decisions and actions without fear of being run over by tanks or shot by soldiers. The last time such a thing happened in the US, was at Kent State university, in the 70s. A lot of people went to jail over that, and the country was outraged. Does the average Chi-Comm even know about the massacre in Tiennamen Square?:soldier: :soldier: :tank:

 

[DarkHound]

Dude, my aunt and uncle have 4 children in China. My other aunt and uncle have 2 children in China. As an American, I understand why you're upset with Fayadhi badmouthing America (I am too).

But just because he does, doesn't mean you have to up the rhetoric against China and Chinese in general. In doing so, you lower yourself. Many of the things you said are untrue or exaggerated: technology, abortion, the massacre (i.e. everyone knows it happened).

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2
Fayadhi, did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason no-one is willing to compare China to America is because China is a 3rd world nation, and America is The industrial super-giant of the world? Now don't get me wrong, you Chinese can really crank out cheap, hand-made trinkets of no significant technological sophistication what-soever, but when it comes to real manufacturing capacity, you just don't have any.

As an aside, I'd like to point out to the rest of the world that the reason so many young Chinese men like Fayadhi are discovering the Internet is because there are damn few young Chinese women for them to discover. You see, in China, when a couple finds out that the woman is having her second child, she has to go have an abortion. (Not making this up, folks, it's the LAW!) If she has a girl first, her husband will often 'accidentally' kill the child, so he can have a male heir. Experts agree that these two factors will combine to allow the Chinese to rapidly achieve their dream of a people-free China in just a few generations.

But back to the issue of why America and China cannot be compared. In America, people are allowed not only to choose their leaders, but to protest their decisions and actions without fear of being run over by tanks or shot by soldiers. The last time such a thing happened in the US, was at Kent State university, in the 70s. A lot of people went to jail over that, and the country was outraged. Does the average Chi-Comm even know about the massacre in Tiennamen Square?:soldier: :soldier: :tank:

 

[DarkHound]

 

[DarkHound]

Originally posted by DarkHound
Chris, I understand your point too. In fact, I might agree with you. We see English spoken across the world, as the default buisness language, primarily because of the US. In the future, experts say that three languages will dominate: English, Manderin and Spanish, while the others fade away.

And thanks for your insight.

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2
Fayadhi, did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason no-one is willing to compare China to America is because China is a 3rd world nation, and America is The industrial super-giant of the world? Now don't get me wrong, you Chinese can really crank out cheap, hand-made trinkets of no significant technological sophistication what-soever, but when it comes to real manufacturing capacity, you just don't have any.

As an aside, I'd like to point out to the rest of the world that the reason so many young Chinese men like Fayadhi are discovering the Internet is because there are damn few young Chinese women for them to discover. You see, in China, when a couple finds out that the woman is having her second child, she has to go have an abortion. (Not making this up, folks, it's the LAW!) If she has a girl first, her husband will often 'accidentally' kill the child, so he can have a male heir. Experts agree that these two factors will combine to allow the Chinese to rapidly achieve their dream of a people-free China in just a few generations.

But back to the issue of why America and China cannot be compared. In America, people are allowed not only to choose their leaders, but to protest their decisions and actions without fear of being run over by tanks or shot by soldiers. The last time such a thing happened in the US, was at Kent State university, in the 70s. A lot of people went to jail over that, and the country was outraged. Does the average Chi-Comm even know about the massacre in Tiennamen Square?:soldier: :soldier: :tank:

LOL! LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL!
Right on! And Estonia is also a 3rd world country! Haiti is probably a 17th world country?!
Goddam, I'm really relieved that all americans are not like you.

 

[DarkHound]

''
Actually Juize,
You're dead wrong, probably because you're not basing your opinion on fact. China IS a third world country (well, perhaps a 2nd world country). But it is definitely not even close to being a first world country.

GDP per capita (Gross Domestic Product) and the agriculture ratio are good indicators of where a country currently stands in terms of development. In more developed countries, the GDP per capita (how much a person makes per year) is higher. And in more developed countries, the agriculture ratio (how many people farm compared to number of people in the industry or service sector) is lower.

Compare US, Estonia and China: (this is from the CIA country factbook http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/indexgeo.html)

GDP per capita: (purchasing power parity)
-China: $3,600 (the average Chinese makes $300 a month)
-Estonia: $10,000 (the average Estonian makes $833 a month)
-US: 36,200 (the average American makes $3017 a month)

Labor force - by occupation:
-China: agriculture 50%, industry 24%, services 26% (1998)
-Estonia: industry 20%, agriculture 11%, services 69% (1999 est.)
-US: agriculture 2%, industry 18%, services 80% (1999)

With these facts, it should be pretty easy for you to decide China's status, in terms of development.

Also note,

Military expenditures:
-China: $12.608 billion (percent of GDP: 1.2%)
-US: $276.7 billion (percent of GDP: 3.2%)

Many people think that US is imminently threatened by the US, both in economy and military. Well, look at the the facts and decide for yourself. Sure, China is growing quickly and everything but it still has a long way to go.

Originally posted by Juize


LOL! LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL!
Right on! And Estonia is also a 3rd world country! Haiti is probably a 17th world country?!
Goddam, I'm really relieved that all americans are not like you.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

In brief my pro American arguement.

As for the China vs USA: (if Britain and Europe are hangers onto america then America wins by even more decisively.

1. I say that American citizens are alot happier and better of than Chinese so the USA is better.

2. I for one remember Tianamen Square AND can recall in my history books the "Great Leap backwards" the "Cultural Revolution", the whole Kuomentang era and basically the poverty of the peasants throughout history...the fact that both the Japanese and Mongols wiped millions of Chinese off the face of the Earth. The FACT is that American citizens have suffered rarely from starvation or war.

3. Chinese government is oppressive...look at the Fu Gong or whatever society (they e-mailed me for support, I said to stop practicing for the sake of their members lives). Look at Tibet wher the Chinese are merely colonising it so that it losses by numbers of Chinese any independance. You can't look at every internet site...while America's 3rd largest industry is porn -thats cos they have the nice looking babes

4. The future is brighter for American citizens with much less chance of starvation, civil war, economic collapse or dictatorship than China.

FAYADI came back with responses about who invented paper etc...well America wasn't around then but leads at present research and implementation (e.g Hubble) so you don't score any points there!

As for being nasty to Brandon Fayadi try it with me because I said Britain should get them all

Fayadi...I see you are lucky enough to be in Shanghai and not in some paddy field...good luck to you and nice that you aren't suffering hardship

P.S China is a backward country now...it has a GNP the size of Portugal and a population that is about 100 times larger