US vs China

[Headline]

do u know how many temples were destroyed in the civil disorders under communist regime in a time call "Cultural Revolution?"

If u know, then u know that the cultural value of China were actually lower and less influential.

As matter of opinion, I think that China doesn't have it's culture anymore. Check out Chairman Jiang, he wears western suits instead of traditional Chinese clothing. And talk about Dragon, Chinese do not worship dragon anymore. They only do that for economical reasons.

If China doesn't have it's own culture, where in the world have Chinese culture?

 

[Headline]

Originally posted by Fayadi
Old way,with High-tech stuffs US on Vietnam War was a total disgrace !It only shows US are materialistic in inventing things but no ideas to use them off.What's the use!Just for your information China successfully beaten Vietnam!US.......


ON point 2 u dont understand,by the time Japanese invasion,CHINA HAD FOUGHT WARS WITH SO MANY COUNTRIES BRITAIN,FRANCE,GERMANY,RUSSIA,And other european countries and There were no stability there with civil wars around!IT WAS A WONDER WE CAN RESIST Japanese attacks to prevent them to go deeper to our territory!We only used inferiror weapons to resist Japanese ,it proved we are really something!
US just depend hightech stuff,if not they will just lose in every war!
By the mongol invasions,Europe should lost their faces because Mongol's invasion succesfully entered Ukraine and fought with the europeans.And by that time China was not in a stable position to fight mongols.Ming Dynasty is agood example of a stable China and how it fought mongols (though Ming Dynasty one of the main culprits for the fall of Chinese prosperity as they closed their doors to foreigners!)

I do understand it,,,,,,,it's strange that every Chinese who are as patriotic as you believe that they are the best even when they are so behind compare to other people.

I can understand why u think that way.....

1. your government restrict the media
2. your government use propaganda to brainwash people
3. you are either the elite class who has money and never see how poor chinese people live in or you are a ordinary chinese people who are amazed by the economical development chinese people have becasue ur parents or ur grandparents have never seen so much progress.
4. You are the content citizens who don't question the government, while there are many who does.
5. You don't believe in human right, because ur parents don't have human rights before, so were ur grand parents and ur ancestors.


I do understand u,,,,,I have met so many people like u on-line,,,,,,
they all say to me "As long as the government bring us money, we don't need human rights." they also said to me, " we don't need to learn the mistake we made in the history. We just have to do well in the future using necessary means"

You still don't get how China lost. It lost because it's people are
ignorant. I am a Chinese, and I am ashame of u.


here i talk about the main theme
u said that the High-tech stuffs US on Vietnam War was a total disgrace

I say that US lost because US president declare (police action) on Vietnam without good reason. In fact the production is in normalcy. This causes civil disorders, so US have to retreat.

u said that "There were no stability there with civil wars around!IT WAS A WONDER WE CAN RESIST Japanese attacks to prevent them to go deeper to our territory!"

I say this is not about people. It is a strategy Russian used to defeat German and Nepoleon, and Cheng Kai-Shek copied it. It is simple, anyone who knew history should know it. It is bascially to extent the enemy line and cut off their supplys of fresh men and foods. It is not invented by Chinese, and this doesn't prove anything.

u said that "By the mongol invasions,Europe should lost their faces because Mongol's invasion succesfully entered Ukraine and fought with the europeans.And by that time China was not in a stable position to fight mongols.Ming Dynasty is agood example of a stable China and how it fought mongols."

I say that Mongels are barbarians. They never actually controled Ukarain. They just defeat it's army and enter it then goes out without any army unit guarding it. Then the Ukarainian rebel, so they send their horseman again to defeat the partisans. Every time, they gain some money that way. In china, they actually have horseman occupy the cities, but they did not build any temples. So the chinese rebeled and build regular units to clean up the mongels.

Ming Dynasty lost to Mancurian if u remember.

 

[voodoo chile]

Right, the title really should changed on this thread...

1. in the last 80 years the US has been the most influential of the two countries.

2. that was the last 80 years......the last 80 or so years before THAT, the English (or British Empire) was the most powerful (or influential?) civilization......and to the next 80 years? Well now, we will just have to see.....and the 80 after that?

Just some generalizations made by various posts throughout this topic that i thought were just ignorent of there own country...

1. Vietnam.......... Yes the Chinese conqered it but correct me if im wrong, didnt they fight their way back out from Chinese rule as well...... right into the hands of the French (who were just as oppresive as any other previous invaders), and then fight their way out of that too? And then thoroughly embarrass the new superpower of the era.... the US of A!

2. Oh yeah, one more thing, the Americans preaching about oppresion of the Chinese people better remember they themselves were just as bad a coupla few short decades ago (dont get me wrong im not pro-comunist china) with your civil rights towards a certain race of your own people....again dont take this the wrong way, im glad you want the chinese people free from oppression.....im hoping they like you have during the early half of this century, will fight and gain thier freedom of speech and expression.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by voodoo chile
1. Vietnam.......... Yes the Chinese conqered it but correct me if im wrong, didnt they fight their way back out from Chinese rule as well...... right into the hands of the French (who were just as oppresive as any other previous invaders), and then fight their way out of that too? And then thoroughly embarrass the new superpower of the era.... the US of A!

The Vietnamese didn't fight their way out of Chinese rule and into the hands of the French. They were already a tributary state of the Manchu Qing court of China. Then the French came and the Vietnamese emperor appealed to the Manchus for military aid. The Manchu court complied and actually sent some troops over. This was in the 19th century.

The Sino-Vietnamese troops were reasonably successful too, keeping the French at bay in territory that's inhospitable to the French.

Then came the Opium Wars and Anglo-French forces invaded China to force open the Chinese mkt to British drugs (What a way to push your sales.... ). The Chinese was forced to a peace and part of the settlement was for the Chinese troops to be recalled fr Vietnam.

So the Vietnamese emperor was left to his own devices and eventually succumbed in some more years ....

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I do understand it,,,,,,,it's strange that every Chinese who are as patriotic as you believe that they are the best even when they are so behind compare to other people.

I can understand why u think that way.....

1. your government restrict the media
2. your government use propaganda to brainwash people
3. you are either the elite class who has money and never see how poor chinese people live in or you are a ordinary chinese people who are amazed by the economical development chinese people have becasue ur parents or ur grandparents have never seen so much progress.
4. You are the content citizens who don't question the government, while there are many who does.
5. You don't believe in human right, because ur parents don't have human rights before, so were ur grand parents and ur ancestors.

Fayadi is not Mainland Chinese. He's Indonesian Chinese I think. He's a somewhat grandiose and unrealistic idea of present-day China and Chinese history .....

I do understand u,,,,,I have met so many people like u on-line,,,,,,
they all say to me "As long as the government bring us money, we don't need human rights." they also said to me, " we don't need to learn the mistake we made in the history. We just have to do well in the future using necessary means"

Human rights in China is the right to eat a meal everyday and have a roof over your head every night. You can't believe how absolutely bad things were before the Commies came to power. However, times has chged and the people's aspirations have chged. As their needs and demands become more sophisticated, their clamour for more human 'rights' will also be louder. Chinese are not all idiots, just that for the period being, actually making and spending a sizeable amt of real income is still a novelty for many.

You still don't get how China lost. It lost because it's people are
ignorant. I am a Chinese, and I am ashame of u.

The reason the Chinese 'lost' is many and myriad; the most important of which IMHO is the sheer size of China and therefore it's extremely difficult to get the country to move in any direction en masse in an age when mass communications is unreliable.

I say this is not about people. It is a strategy Russian used to defeat German and Nepoleon, and Cheng Kai-Shek copied it. It is simple, anyone who knew history should know it. It is bascially to extent the enemy line and cut off their supplys of fresh men and foods. It is not invented by Chinese, and this doesn't prove anything.

I beg to differ. It's a tactic espoused by Sun Zi who wrote his military treatise 2500 yrs ago. IIRC Sun Zi's treatise is required reading at West Point even today. Many of his points are still valid.

I say that Mongels are barbarians. They never actually controled Ukarain. They just defeat it's army and enter it then goes out without any army unit guarding it. Then the Ukarainian rebel, so they send their horseman again to defeat the partisans. Every time, they gain some money that way. In china, they actually have horseman occupy the cities, but they did not build any temples. So the chinese rebeled and build regular units to clean up the mongels.

There wasn't much a Ukraine then. Or even a Russia. And the Mongol Golden Horde did rule what's Ukraine and Russia today firmly. Their capital was at Sarai somewhere in east of Ukraine (?). They were one of the many nomadic tribes to erupt out of the Eurasian steppes thru out history.

Ming Dynasty lost to Mancurian if u remember.

Wrong! The Ming lost to the rebel Li Zicheng who caused the last emperor to hang himself. Then the Chinese general Wu Sangui let the Manchus in to fight the rebels. The Manchus went on to conquer all of China with the help of some Ming generals and a lot of Ming troops. The Manchu Banners themselves didn't have the numbers to cover everywhere.

In hindsight, the Manchus were probably China's greatest rulers. Kangxi, Yongzheng and Qianlong were all very strong rulers and accomplished Confucian scholars to boot. The Manchus also extended China's borders to limits unmatched since the days of the Tang 1300 yrs ago. While the Mongol Yuan were rude barbarians who disdained to absorb Chineseness, the Manchus became heavily Sinicized and were virtually indistinguishable fr Chinese. This is the real power of China.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

do u know how many temples were destroyed in the civil disorders under communist regime in a time call "Cultural Revolution?"

If u know, then u know that the cultural value of China were actually lower and less influential.

As matter of opinion, I think that China doesn't have it's culture anymore. Check out Chairman Jiang, he wears western suits instead of traditional Chinese clothing. And talk about Dragon, Chinese do not worship dragon anymore. They only do that for economical reasons.

If China doesn't have it's own culture, where in the world have Chinese culture?

Culture is not measured by physical bldgs or clothes. Real life is not Civ 3 you know. The Chinese hand chged their clothing many times thru century but each time, they did it, Chinese culture wasn't diminished but was enriched instead.

I know some Westerners on these boards who actually view China with some mysticsm because of its sheer age. Chinese culture is ancient and when the Chinese people is ready (i.e. earn big bucks, lots of peace and free private times, got more rights), they'll embrace their heritage more heartily some day.

I don't remember Chinese worshipping dragons ....... They prayed to them maybe for good luck and rain though. :crazyeyes

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Do anybody forsee China overlapping America in the next 50 years? then again its hard to say...anything can happen in 50 years.....It's all about scientific breakthoughs.....

Japan didn't make that many scientific breakthrus in the last 5 decades and yet today, they're the no 2 economy in the world, country-wise. The Japs imported so many American ideas (the Just-in-time manufacturing concept and total quality production) and inventions and made them their own. The American who came up with the JIT and total quality system that are now the core of Japanese quality manufacturing is venerated in Japan as a hero, yet is barely known in the US itself.

China is quite a bit bigger than Japan. Scientific breakthroughs are nice but you must know how to make use of them as well.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by SunTzu
I think if the US and china got into a war the Us would win. Ifi t was a cold war with china, the US would win.

War isn't the only way to size up two countries you know .....

Sure the US will win. Even Japan got a bigger military budget than China's (per capita wise and also in real terms).

 

[voodoo chile]

To Knight-Dragon,

thanks for the correction on the Vietnam thing, i think i'll dig into the history books a little bit deeper next time i write!!!

which i think i will cause this thread is very intresting!!

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by voodoo chile
To Knight-Dragon,

thanks for the correction on the Vietnam thing, i think i'll dig into the history books a little bit deeper next time i write!!!

which i think i will cause this thread is very intresting!!

But you're right if you're referring to earlier times. The Vietnamese did fight the Ming Chinese hard to get independent. The Chinese managed to stay 2 decades or so but were eventually kicked out in the 15th century.

The only other time the Chinese ruled N Vietnam (only part they ever ruled; this was the Tonkin or Annam state) was during the Han dynasty. But during this really ancient era, the Vietnamese didn't exist yet and N Vietnam could be considered Han Chinese. After the Han collapsed, N Vietnam floated out of the Chinese orbit and never really rejoined the Chinese empire, unlike other formerly Han provinces. Much like Korea too.

Traditionally, Vietnam had always been a refuge area for defeated rulers in China. After the Mongol and Manchu invasions, lots of officials and others of the Song and Ming dynasties fled to Vietnam and settled there.

 

[Fayadi]

There are a lot of misunderstandings going here......
Since when I am proud of CCP or the governments???
Since when I dont believe in human rights?
Since when I am a content of the living condition in China now??
I am here to say that I am proud of Chinese Civilisation and they will be really different when they unlocked their potentials.

 

[muppet]

China vs. US?? LOL

This mongol/china thing. I don't have historical knowledge of that era, but was under the general impression that China never did "liberate" itself from Mongol rule -- that it was more to do with China assimilating its Mongol conquerers into its society. Probably just a myth, but can someone clarify this for me?

Westerners may be surprised at how FAST China is changing today. If you spend much time in China you'll get a general consensus from the population that things are going quite well. Most reports of civil rights violations are exaggerated and/or taken out of context to the situation.

Free speech, though not written within a code of laws, is coming about! Compare a decade ago with today. Today, I can swear and cuss all I want about the government and Mao Tse Tung and Jian Ximen etc. and I'll never be arrested. That is a HUGE change considering a decade ago I would have been sent to labor camp.

Factory labor? Getting way better! It USED TO BE horrid. But now, the working conditions are improving all the time. I work for a factory in China where we now have mandatory vacation time, optional overtime shifts, mandatory no work allowed on sundays, bi-yearly safety and health reviews and lots of more good stuff. Heck! The government even let us privatize just two months ago!
They just gave us managers an equal share of the newly privatized "corporation" with instructions to operate responsibly and diligently.

The consensus between government, industry and the people is a continued effort towards more freedom, personal and economic, but gradually. These is serious concern from seeing Russia's fast change to a democracy that too much too fast may tigger an economic, political, or social collapse

Anyways, I'll stop occupying space.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by muppet
This mongol/china thing. I don't have historical knowledge of that era, but was under the general impression that China never did "liberate" itself from Mongol rule -- that it was more to do with China assimilating its Mongol conquerers into its society. Probably just a myth, but can someone clarify this for me?

The Mongols were the only nomadic conquerors of China that weren't completely subsumed by Chinese culture. The Mongol rulers were very much aware of the subversive power of Chinese culture and sought to keep Mongols apart fr the general Chinese populace, seeing how things went for the former Khitan and Jurchen conquerers of China.

Then the Mongol ruling house (like all family-based dynasties) became weak after 1-2 centuries of rule. Coupled with devastating natural calamities and peasant uprisings, the Mongols then retreated intact to the Mongolian steppes where they remained a powerful threat to Ming China for centuries. Zhu Yuanzhang (founder of the Ming) didn't manage to surround the Mongols in Beijing in time and destroyed them.

One last thing - in those days, there weren't much of any ethnic conception of Mongol vs Chinese in terms of the common ppl. Many North Chinese in the millions did serve in the Mongol armies of the Yuan. And when Zhu Yuanzhang established the Ming, there were actually at least half a million Mongol and N Chinese troops of the former Yuan serving in his armies.

But the Mongols were pretty wary of the Confucian former mandarinate of the Song and kept clamping down on them, hence there's a large negative Chinese literature on the Mongols. In those times, only the Confucian gentry could pretty much read and write. And hence their written works sort of became the general Chinese review on the Mongol reign in China.

 

[tetley]

On this vote I clearly went US, hands-down. My reasons:

1) China has been very isolationist through the millenia. They never spread their culture--other civilizations had to go to them and tap them (e.g. Marco Polo).
2) Although the US has only been around 225 years, the PEOPLE who founded the US (i.e. the bold, innovative, explorer, give-me-freedom-type people) have been contributing to civilization all along.
3) A few of the things the US has contributed: the computer, the automobile, the motor, the airplane, the light bulb, the radio, the internet, automatic weapons, the atom bomb. We're talking very mankind-transforming technologies here. China's been around for thousands of years and they never even came close to all this stuff.
4) Most western countries have modelled their governments after the US (i.e. constitution, separation of powers, democracy, etc.). China, however, pretty much borrowed their government from the Soviets. While the U.S. borrowed ideas from England, France, Greece, Rome, etc., they developed their own model of government in the end--and you don't see people modelling their governments after China. Quite the contrary: look at Taiwan.
5) China's charitable giving & loaning of money for foreign economic development is virtually zero. The U.S. gives out money almost to a fault.
6) The U.S. has stopped Nazi Germany from dominating the world, followed by Imperial Japan, followed by the Soviets. Plus they broke the stalemate in WWI. Who did China stop? Certainly not the Japanese. Not the Mongols, either--the Mongols divided up and stopped themselves.
7) The U.S.'s GNP exceeds China's even though China is 5 times larger.
8) How many foreigners do you hear of going to Chinese universities to get their education and then returning home?
9) The U.S.: lots of immigration problems. China: lots of defection problems. Enough said.


OTOH, what's going for China:

1) They contributed a few things like gunpowder, silk, etc..
2) China's been around longer.
3) The Great Wall is the only man-made structure visible from outer space.
4) Sun Tzu's influence on modern war generals.

All of those things are no big deal, IMHO.

 

[Comrade Juhon]

(Fayadi's quote)
"4. Commercial: Since WWI we have been the richest nation on earth and (aside from one or two arabian oil nations) we are the riches per capita as well."

Next time check the facts o.k.? There is a little place called the Faeroe Islands in the North Sea which is where I originate from, and it has a GNP per capita of $40,000 which is about 30% higher than the US. It's economy is almost totally based on fish, and the minimum wage is about $15 per hour.

It's the best place in the world to live, there is virtually no crime, there is beautiful countryside and there is only 45,000 people in the country so it is NOT crowded.

 

[Knowltok 2]

A few of the things the US has contributed: the computer, the automobile, the motor, the airplane, the light bulb, the radio, the internet, automatic weapons, the atom bomb. We're talking very mankind-transforming technologies here

Okay, before the rest of the board jumps all over you...

The computer can trace its lineage to Europe.
The Germans are going to claim the Automobile.
If by motor you mean engine, the English are going to take that one.
The radio was Marconi, an Italian.
Automatic weapons would technically belong to the Europeans again with the Maxim Gun. Gattling was hand crancked. This one is debatable. Of couse so is the utility of it.
Atom Bomb: Tremendous undertaking, lots of work, decisive, and all that, but...people are going to crucify you on how much of a contribution it was. Rename it Atomic power.

They're also going to jump on you for claiming that the US stopped Hitler. We had a lot of help.


All that said, I agree with your choice.

 

[tetley]

Let 'em jump.

BTW on the computer, that was German-born immigrants to the U.S. who invented the first microprocessor. And founded Intel. On the Atom Bomb, whether for better or worse, it clearly transformed mankind, thus I say it contributed to civilization. Even if they contributed to civilization's eventual destructuion--that's still a contribution. The rest I'll just let go.

So, let them crucify. The U.S. in 225 years has contributed more to civilization than China's entire thousands of years of existence and however-many billions of people.

 

[kobayashi]

Early WWII
The first progamable computer was made by Koran Zuse in germany. The Z2 and later Z3 was fully programmable but of little practical use as it took a second or two to do a single calculation. However, it contained all the elements of todays computers: CPU, register, ram, keyboard.

MidWWII
The next computer that came along was the Collussus which was used to crack the super German High Command code (can't remember what it was called but it was even more advanced than the kriegsmarine version of the enigma). That had wiring that needed to be adjusted for each task and was not a gerenal machine. But it had a practical application.

LateWWII
Eniac only came along towards the end of the War and was used as a calculator to do artilery tables and little else. However it was probably more advanced then the other two as it was both programmable and practical.

IBM soon became the dominant force in computing..that is until a little machine called Sinclair Z88 made its appearence in 1987.



Nicolaus Otto invented the first practical alternative to the steam engine in 1876 -- the first four-stroke internal combustion engine. Otto-mobile?

Karl Benz designed and in 1885 built the world's first practical automobile to be powered by an internal-combustion engine.
On January 29, 1886, he received the first patent for a crude gas-fueled car. Benz & Cie., the company started by Karl Benz, became the world's largest manufacturer of automobiles in 1900.

America's first gasoline-powered automobile was the 1891 Lambert car invented by John W. Lambert.


Personally I think America's best invention was TV and the next US invention to change the world will be that gyroscope balanced single axled person mover code named Ginger. (can't remember the commercial name now). It can move a person around a whole day for 5 cents of electricity and I think the US postal service and US Forrestry Dept will be the first customers.

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by Fayadi

I am here to say that I am proud of Chinese Civilisation and they will be really different when they unlocked their potentials.

Shouldn't that be 'political dissidents' instead of 'potentials'.

 

[Headline]

Originally posted by Fayadi
There are a lot of misunderstandings going here......
Since when I am proud of CCP or the governments???
Since when I dont believe in human rights?
Since when I am a content of the living condition in China now??
I am here to say that I am proud of Chinese Civilisation and they will be really different when they unlocked their potentials.

Just don't use stupid nationalism. It is what the communists use in China now to control people from being intellectual. The truth is that even if China have billion people, and if they are all dumb (this is if), China won't Win either today or in the future.

By the way, the human rights the government in China believes is "the rights to live and to have food", which is different than western human rights, which is " the right to do anything that doesn't interfere with other's rights"

Comparing these two, u'll see why some chinese people proclaim that they have the human rights, but in fact they only have food and no freedom.

If CCP sucks, reform it, or revolt against it. Don't use nationalism to deny the truth that China sucks now.

The truth is the Chinese government won't even admit that what they done in Tiananman incident happened!!!!