Use of Info Addict Mod for GOTM

[Hammer Rabbi]

well, threats to quit will show how vehement people are on the topic. i dont find them different from saying 'i will never play a gotm until it is used.' it is just a declaration of desires after a vote has been placed.

gotm cant please everyone on every topic but trying to get a general feel for how our players feel about it is what the poll is for. leif wasnt explicit in saying the poll will decide on this. if the numbers are close it will be discussed and ultimately concluded by the staff but it might not completely be decided with the most votes. this poll is just an easier head count than the other discussion thread.

 

[Arnold_T]

I voted yes because it saves me time. And I don't really care about Steam achievements.

On a side note, probably not relevant to this discussion (apologies in advance Leif) the assertion that a HoF mod would be better, and OK, because it prevents cheating is way too optimistic. I think the best a HoF mod can do is just make cheating harder to do, and raise the barrier that cheaters have to jump over. We could raise the barrier even higher than the HoF for civ4 by requiring only online play and linkage to a Steam account. the HoF mod could check IP addresses. It could take machine characteristics and identifiers. But even with these added barriers a really really determined cheater could still have two Steam accounts, two copies of the game on two different machines, in two different internet locations. How do we prevent that!?
Online simultaneous real-time play, with one world-wide start time,with time limits for turns?

 

[Novalia]

Generally, you are playing for your own enjoyment, and perhaps to improve your game. Some players find entertainment in performing better than their competitors and we will offer medals/awards to those worthy of special recognition.

The whole "cheating" fear seems groundless. There Is no money being won so a cheater is simply cheating himself anyway. As for steam achievements meh I don't care about them. Looking at the stats of completed games and the time played half of you are spending much of it clicking NEXT TURN so info addict would be useless to you. You play in a such a formulaic way. JMO

I like info addict so I voted yes.
I like GOTM because it's a way to play a game I don't control from the start and can compare different strats with others.
Cheers

 

[leif erikson]

First post, Welcome to CivFanatics and GOTM.

Thanks for your opinion, good luck in future games.

 

[scaramonga]

I voted yes because it saves me time. And I don't really care about Steam achievements.

Yup About the gist of it

 

[Arnold_T]

re: "The whole "cheating" fear seems groundless."

I agree completely. It wouldn't bother me one bit if we never get a HoF mod for civ5.
this civ5 GOTM running in "TSG" format seems to be working just fine!
the games are fun, and it's interesting to see other's strategies.
thanks Leif!

 

[vra379971]

I made this question in the first place, so I'm going to take some time here to explain why I am in favor of it.

Cheating or not, we will get a Civ 5 mod for many good reasons - as the mod, among other things when the dll is released, will improve the game , It should be noted, many mod improvements to game code/screen were actually included in the base game itself pretty well wholesale in Civ 4. Better AI I think it was called, as well as corrected many bug fixes and issues players had.

It should also be noted, with the Civ 5 system, installing the mod will be foolproof, whereas before it sorta needed a comp science degree Plenty of submissions showed everyone did it though.

To say that we would lose half the players if a mod was used (that improved the game without changing any mechanics) is at best misinformed, and at worst utterly unlikely, as the Civ 4 experience would suggest. If one believes bad game design is a virtue to be protected, then sure lets do nothing. However, I do recall that makes for a boring game. Why else were there riots after Civ 5's original release?

Oh, and that changing the hp to 100 from 10 thing? Modders here did that first, before the designers adopted it.

Also, there have been comments about being able to see things you are not normally, and one should wait for the screens that pop up on different dates. Well, good argument..oh but wait, those screens are completely different for everyone, so, while one might learn his enemy has a large army hidden (and take action)....the other would learn he has more polices (and be rather surprised). Would you not agree this would likely change the game, and would it not be better to have an equal playing field?

 

[lymond]

I'm going to try to think of a tactful way of saying what I want to say, as a) some of ideas brought up here floor me b) I don't care much about V to really get intense about it.

First I'll say that I have a very strong notion that the votes break down like this. A large percentage of the Yays have some experience with the mod and prior version GOTMs. The Nays are made up a small percentage of "Purists" who espouse strong felt arguments with things like "Mod gives more info that is in the game. which in turn changes the game", an even smaller percentage who feel Steam Achievements are just the coolest, and a rather larger percentage that really don't care all that much one way or the other, but hear ridiculous comments like "50% of players will abandon ship" and just don't want to rock the boat.
Moderator Action: Please make your case without making characterizations of one side or the other. This is trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

The argument that the mod changes the game is really pretty silly. It's more about being set in your ways. I think the better question these players should ask is "Should the info/UI already have been provided by the developer?". That's a large part of what community modding is all about and a big reason the developers learn from and incorporate community design. It's about fixing what should have been there in the first place.

Info Addict is exactly that...info. It's about convenience, not changing the game. It's about not having to click through tons of screens and work through a bunch of complex spreadsheets. BUFFY or BUG is of the same ilk. Yet, players here and there bring up singular instances of a specific piece of info the Mod provides that the deem "game changing". Such as seeing a resource trade between one AI and another. But...they don't explain why that specific little tidbit will allow them to finish the game 50 or even 10 turns earlier. I really like to see that in action, because I simply don't think it is true at all. Saying it just doesn't make it so. What it is more tangible is that a mod such as BUFFY or Info Addict will change how long you play a game....that's about all.

There will be a BUFFY for VOTM's one day whether you like it or not. You are just putting off the inevitable.

And c'mon...Steam Achievements. Please don't use that argument against using a standard mod for 1 game you play a month. One game out of the month where you don't miss out on getting "OH...You played a game as Rome!". If you are playing Civ for Steam Achievements, I can't take you seriously as a Purist for a strategy game.
Moderator Action: Just because this is unimportant to you does not mean you can minimize its importance for others. This is also trolling, please stop.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Anyway, the Info Addict vote will fail, but I felt this needed to be said. It's pretty sad.

Oh well, back to the real Civ game anyway.

 

[FeiLing]

@lymond, most people pretty much just hit next turn instantly for every turn. They don't use the data the game gives them neither with nor without the mod. They obviously have no interest in being forced to use this/having to think about how to set it up in the first place.

Please don't use that argument against using a standard mod for 1 game you play a month.

Well, since it's only a (imho extremely) small convenience increase you say this mod brings you, can't you just play one game a month without it?

 

[lymond]

@lymond, most people pretty much just hit next turn instantly for every turn.

I pretty much chalk this up as a political statement that does not hold much merit. I could sit here and say most people pretty much open all the info screens every turn, analyzing what little info vanilla V provides. This does not make it a true generalization or fact.
Moderator Action: It is your opinion as well. I do not understand your need to minimize what others say. Instead of minimizing others, please state your case.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

think about how to set it up in the first place

This is pretty laughable considering it takes a couple of clicks to get a mod in place. Far easier to install a mod in V than in IV, which is the only thing V has on IV.
Moderator Action: Again, this is unnecessary and uncivil. Please post appropriately.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Well, since it's only a (imho extremely) small convenience increase you say this mod brings you, can't you just play one game a month without it?

While I appreciate your (imho extremely) subjective opinion on the merits of a mod I doubt you even have much experience with in the first place, this comment has little bearing on the point I bring up in this discussion. The point is that VOTMs will be played with a mod sooner than later and the HOF mod usually incorporates some of the finer user made unaltered gameplay enhancements. So...those who are generally opposed to change should get used it.
Moderator Action: The Staff does not know for sure that there will be a mod, do not understand how you know. How is his opinion any less than yours? Please do not minimize the points of others, make your own case instead.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Just to clarify here as well, I'm not here as an advocate of the Info Addict mod. I'm not a big fan of Civ V at all and only play the VOTMs as it is the only way to keep my interest. Anything that is BUG like and makes V even a remotely better game gets my vote. I also have a lot of IV GOTM and HOF experience, so I know where all of this is headed.

While at the present time, this poll seems largely skewed to the negative, I can assure that many players enjoy the info and UI enhancements of unaltered gameplay mods. BUG is hugely popular for IV, both for GOTMs/HOF, forum games and general usage.

 

[vra379971]

@lymond, most people pretty much just hit next turn instantly for every turn. They don't use the data the game gives them neither with nor without the mod. They obviously have no interest in being forced to use this/having to think about how to set it up in the first place.


Well, since it's only a (imho extremely) small convenience increase you say this mod brings you, can't you just play one game a month without it?

The difference is of course this being a competition, that one generally tries to take more care, and so the information is useful. Which is essentially what it comes down to - do we want to see a better competition (and game) or not?

 

[Monthar]

The way that seeing AI to AI trades will effect game play is this. You and Civ B both have a DoF with Civ C, but you're at war with Civ B. You want Civ C to help you in the war but because they have the DoF with Civ B they refuse. Now comes this mod that shows you Civ B is trading several resources to Civ C. While you might not normally pillage resource tiles, especially the luxuries, now you know that if you do pillage those tiles you can force those trades to break thereby altering the relationship between the two civs due to the broken trade diplo penalties.

Since I normally only pillage food tiles to keep the soon to be puppet from growing before I can get those tiles converted to trade posts, having that specific info, that I can't access without the mod, would alter how I play.

 

[vra379971]

The way that seeing AI to AI trades will effect game play is this. You and Civ B both have a DoF with Civ C, but you're at war with Civ B. You want Civ C to help you in the war but because they have the DoF with Civ B they refuse. Now comes this mod that shows you Civ B is trading several resources to Civ C. While you might not normally pillage resource tiles, especially the luxuries, now you know that if you do pillage those tiles you can force those trades to break thereby altering the relationship between the two civs due to the broken trade diplo penalties.

Since I normally only pillage food tiles to keep the soon to be puppet from growing before I can get those tiles converted to trade posts, having that specific info, that I can't access without the mod, would alter how I play.

If that's the only issue, then I don't see why we cannot have that removed.

 

[lymond]

Well, I'm at a loss because I don't find that info gamebreaking or a big deal at all. Resource trades are readily available info in prior versions of "vanilla" Civ. The diplo is so sketchy in V that I've it's never made a bit of sense to me. I usually ignore it altogether in this game and it has no bearing on my game. I have no clue what a involuntary broken resource trade would mean between two AIs or if it actually gives a demerit. When I make a resource trade with an AI, I get some temporary "oh...we've traded" green message for a short bit and then the AI attacks. I'm just not seeing the big deal here. IMO this should be info you already have anyway. Diplo has always been pointless/useless and nonsensical in this game.

It's basically saying that "info you don't see" is impacting "info that you don't see"

 

[MiniMe]

I voted "no".
I would vote yes if the info available through the mod would be available to the user at any point in the game, through other screens.
But as I understand the comments in this thread, the mod makes available info that is NOT seen through other screens. I hear that it "does not affect gameplay" but in theory I would say that is incorrect since you could act upon info that you would not have without the mod.

 

[Halcyan2]

I voted "No."

I do like Achievements, but it's a non-issue for me right now since I've already gotten all the Civ V achievements.

My main issue is that many of these ideas (even though great) have not been implemented by the official designers. If the next patch implemented these changes, that would be *wonderful*. But if they haven't, then relying on a special MOD will only fracture the overall Civ V community since GOTM will be splintering off and may eventually be playing a completely different game. So yes, there are many changes I would like to see in the game but I would prefer to see them implemented by the designers rather than by unknown modders.

Some posters argue that the Mod would simply provide a "convenience factor," since the information is already accessible in the game. In that case, maybe the mod should also provide conveniences such as automatically assigning new population points to focus on production, or workers automatically converting farms in puppet cities to trading posts or allowing you to set timed countdown alerts to keep track of turns. Whether you like it or not, a large portion of Civ V is all about micromanagement, so what some might view is "convenience" others view as "ignoring essential skills." YMMV.

 

[Ribannah]

Ten useful things to have in a mod:

- "The Aztecs just made an extra source of Silver available. Maybe you could suggest a trade."
- "You are about to move your Settler next to a barbarian unit that you spotted. Are you sure?"
- "Your research agreement is about to come to completion but you haven't selected a technology path. Would you like to do so now?"
- A 'prevent shrinkage' checkbox.
- A 'don't unfix all citizens' checkbox.
- Opening the city screen from the empire overview, and returning there on closing.
- "This game is marked as a competition game. Would you like to autosave every turn?"
- A 'next civ' button on the negotiation screen.
- The 'assign specialists manually' checkbox available right away.
- The option of using smaller message icons.

 

[Arnold_T]

re Lymond's: "IMO this should be info you already have anyway."

I don't really feel strongly one way or the other about this debate, and don't care if this vote ends up no. I voted yes, just because of convenience, but I think this is also a good point Lymond makes. Yes, this changes the game from what the designers built, but I think it does make it better. I find it really strange and annoying that so little information is available in the game, and I think its just an oversight or something that just fell off the priority list for the developers. Take the resource trades example - do we not know what resources countries are exporting and importing today (in the real world), and from who? it's would be pretty hard to keep that a secret.

 

[vra379971]

re Lymond's: "IMO this should be info you already have anyway."

I don't really feel strongly one way or the other about this debate, and don't care if this vote ends up no. I voted yes, just because of convenience, but I think this is also a good point Lymond makes. Yes, this changes the game from what the designers built, but I think it does make it better. I find it really strange and annoying that so little information is available in the game, and I think its just an oversight or something that just fell off the priority list for the developers. Take the resource trades example - do we not know what resources countries are exporting and importing today (in the real world), and from who? it's would be pretty hard to keep that a secret.

Agreed. The fact is (and there's an excellent article about this somewhere) with the coming of the internet, the game world has changed, and the relationship between makers and buyers has changed. There is no longer a 'developers concept' and a 'rest of us'. It simply no longer exists. The idea of creating an easily moddable game is so both groups can feed off each other - with the devs incorporating mods into their design because it frees them up to do things they could not normally do - like serious back end AI coding - , and the community making use of the tools the devs give them to create a game they enjoy more.

 

[arieltal]

i am pro using that mod, it's great!