Uses for 'worthless' wonders?

[popejubal]

let me just say this is really noobish (no offense really, just a fact)

1. mech inf start with march. So they need only 1 medic in the stack.
2. if you wait for mech inf to start domination or conquest, you'll end up at best with a time victory (except if you are a really fast techer, but usually this comes with enemies teching just as fast= nothing won, since you'll be facing mech infas too)
3. Red cross is great, which as nothing to do with pentagon.
4. for the price of the pentagon, I can have a whole army and not bother in the least about their promotions.

I'm not seeing the Newb-osity here.

Mech Infantry only need one medic in a stack. But if you have one city dedicated to producing Mech Infantry and that city happens to have Red Cross, then you're going to have a very comfortable level of Medic redundancy. The fact that these Medic units (Infantry or Mech Infantry depending on the era) have 2 promotions is just gravy.

I won't always build the Pentagon, but there is often a time of peace in my games when I'm thinking that I have spare capacity (and possibly a Great Engineer) in one city and that a nice juicy military tech is on the horizon. If I build the Pentagon now, I'll be pumping out that unit in each of my production cities with 2 promotions instead of 1. That's Combat1 and Pinch or City Garrison II or Combat1 and Medic out of the gate since Red Cross is something I have access to long after the Pentagon has been built by some civ. Or City Raider II tanks instead of City Raider I tanks.

That extra promotion is often the difference between my losing a combat and my winning a combat and finding more promotions available later.

Sure, I can switch civics. I can sit through endless turns of Anarchy to spend a few turns in (blech) Theocracy or (even worse) Vassalage. I could also go to war with a metric ton of units that each have 1 promotion. I could also just pony up the hammers and build the Pentagon. If my empire is big enough, the investment is more than justified. If my empire is not big enough to justify the investment, then I've probably already lost the game.

I tend to play Epic on Large maps with Low sea levels. I certainly wouldn't build the Pentagon on a Tiny Duel map just like I wouldn't build the Eiffel Tower or the Statue of Liberty in a One City Challenge. On the right map, however, the Pentagon is an outstanding wonder and when the Mech Infantry come out to play, you'll have a grand old time. That doesn't mean that you have to wait for Mech Infantry to do your invading. It just means that you get more benefit from your troops when they do come rolling out.

 

[LucyDuke]

If my empire is big enough, the investment is more than justified.

This is why I'm not worried about cabert thinking I'm a noob. (I am.)

How many XP would it take to make it worth it? If you build the Pentagon six turns from a SS launch, and end up getting five beefed MI, yeah, it was a stupid build. If it costs 1250 (just copying the number from earlier in the thread), and you get ten extra XP, that's 125 per XP. Horrible idea. If you build twenty-five beefed MI, it's 25 per XP. Still not great, but slightly more reasonable. If you build 125 new units after you finish the pentagon, that's 5 per XP. At a base cost of 200 per MI. Base strength of 40, so it's 5 /str, combat I costs 10 under this plan, and gives you 4 str, so you end up with 2.5/str. I'll take that deal any day of the week, twice on a Monday. It's a useless build sometimes, sure, but for a drawn-out Conquest or Domination win, I think it's absurd not to build it.

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

While all the wonders have their uses apart from Chichen Itza, which is practically useless given the AI's tendency to pillage, the Colossus is actually slightly detrimental in some cases. It makes those sea tiles more worthwhile working, but you're not working cottages, which will hurt when Astronomy comes around and you have fewer matured cottages. If you plan to end the game quickly or have little cottageable land so that you are forced to work sea tiles, then it is useful.

 

[KMadCandy]

This is why I'm not worried about cabert thinking I'm a noob. (I am.)

lmao i'm not worried about cabert thinking i'm a noob! i am a noob! i'm worried about leading *other* noobs astray! but i'll not overworry now that i've seen the other posts.

typical KMad nonCiv4comment:

Spoiler :

every MMO guild i have ever been in has added 2 rules when i joined.
#1 "never follow KMad." (you seriously would NOT believe how bad my sense of direction is)
#2 "keep in mind that KMad is permanoob." i mean, there have been cases where i was the first in the guild to reach max level (i have a lot more free time than most people, obviously). levels don't change the fact that i'm permanoob and kinda proud of it in my odd way*gigglefest*

 

[KMadCandy]

I certainly wouldn't build the Pentagon on a Tiny Duel map just like I wouldn't build the Eiffel Tower or the Statue of Liberty in a One City Challenge.

dude! <3 ET and SoL in OCC. heck, i'd even build versailles and forbidden palace in OCC if i could! and colossus and great lighthouse even if i was inland. all based on having the time and hammers, etc. great merchant points in OCC are the most awesome thing since sliced bread. in fact, they are sliced bread *giggle*

 

[cabert]

I'm not seeing the Newb-osity here.

Maybe I was a bit misleading. Building the pentagon isn't noobish.
Only the reasons invoked were.
I did build pentagon a few times too, but it never (and I mean never!) gave me an upper hand when I didn't already have it.
What I mean is if you can put the pentagon to good use, you probably don't need it .

Mech Infantry only need one medic in a stack. But if you have one city dedicated to producing Mech Infantry and that city happens to have Red Cross, then you're going to have a very comfortable level of Medic redundancy. The fact that these Medic units (Infantry or Mech Infantry depending on the era) have 2 promotions is just gravy.

right except nothing "happens"
When you play the game you make things happen.
Why would you build your mechinfs in the red cross city rather than in your WP city?
Other troops don't start with march and can benefit more from the free medic I. Not to mention transports or other ships.
If you use your RC city to build units which don't benefit from the extra promotion, you actually are playing down RC.
It's the same if you build fighters or bombers in West Point city.
IMHO playing "better" (I'm not a great player, just a monarch/emperor level guy) includes paying attention to those things.

I won't always build the Pentagon, but there is often a time of peace in my games when I'm thinking that I have spare capacity (and possibly a Great Engineer) in one city and that a nice juicy military tech is on the horizon. If I build the Pentagon now, I'll be pumping out that unit in each of my production cities with 2 promotions instead of 1. That's Combat1 and Pinch or City Garrison II or Combat1 and Medic out of the gate since Red Cross is something I have access to long after the Pentagon has been built by some civ. Or City Raider II tanks instead of City Raider I tanks.

Same as above. Nothing "happens". It's your game, you make things happen.
So if there is a time of peace, it's probably because you didn't declare war, don't you think?
ANd if instead of researching towards the pentagon, you had researched towards flight or artillery, maybe you'd be fighting with the upper hand already? (just an assumption, no hard fact here)

That extra promotion is often the difference between my losing a combat and my winning a combat and finding more promotions available later.

really? for the price of the pentagon, I build a fleet of fighters and bombers.
Those are making the difference between winning or losing a combat, including vs superior troops

Sure, I can switch civics. I can sit through endless turns of Anarchy to spend a few turns in (blech) Theocracy or (even worse) Vassalage. I could also go to war with a metric ton of units that each have 1 promotion. I could also just pony up the hammers and build the Pentagon. If my empire is big enough, the investment is more than justified. If my empire is not big enough to justify the investment, then I've probably already lost the game.

that's exactly my point : if you can build the pentagon and put it to good use, then you probably already are in a winning situation.
And you would win even without the not quite square thing.

I tend to play Epic on Large maps with Low sea levels. I certainly wouldn't build the Pentagon on a Tiny Duel map just like I wouldn't build the Eiffel Tower or the Statue of Liberty in a One City Challenge. On the right map, however, the Pentagon is an outstanding wonder and when the Mech Infantry come out to play, you'll have a grand old time. That doesn't mean that you have to wait for Mech Infantry to do your invading. It just means that you get more benefit from your troops when they do come rolling out.

different playstyles obviously
1) I don't play large maps (My PC is already lagging on standard maps in the late game!) usually.
2) I never used a mech inf. I did build a handful for defensive purpose in space victories, but only because I could and my HE city add nothing better to do. I just never get attacked at this point, and didn't need to attack myself.
3) SoL, like 3GD, are continent wonders. So if you're living on a small continent or worse on islands, they are totally worthless. different maps, different games

 

[Lord Parkin]

Chichen Itza is a Wonder I will grab only if I have the time and resources to spare. It can be good for a peaceful game, even if the AI tends not to try to take your cities and would rather pillage. Perhaps a way to make Chichen Itza is to make the benefit so you get additional defense within your borders, not your cities. Since that would make it much more powerful, it would be a more desirable Wonder.

If that was determined to be powerful, perhaps making it go obsolete sooner (perhaps with Gunpowder) would help balance that out.

Now there's an interesting idea. If Chichen Itza gave, say, +10&#37; defence to all of your units when defending inside your borders, then it might be a considerably more useful wonder.

While all the wonders have their uses apart from Chichen Itza, which is practically useless given the AI's tendency to pillage, the Colossus is actually slightly detrimental in some cases. It makes those sea tiles more worthwhile working, but you're not working cottages, which will hurt when Astronomy comes around and you have fewer matured cottages. If you plan to end the game quickly or have little cottageable land so that you are forced to work sea tiles, then it is useful.

It's true that you have to be careful not to hurt your cottage economy when building the Colossus. However, it's very useful when you have a lot of seafood resources which you would be working anyway. I actually find the Colossus a great wonder, due in large part to its incredibly cheap cost (I will almost always have access to Copper, and as a result can churn out the Colossus in well under 10 turns in most cases).

This is why I'm not worried about cabert thinking I'm a noob. (I am.)

How many XP would it take to make it worth it? If you build the Pentagon six turns from a SS launch, and end up getting five beefed MI, yeah, it was a stupid build. If it costs 1250 (just copying the number from earlier in the thread), and you get ten extra XP, that's 125 per XP. Horrible idea. If you build twenty-five beefed MI, it's 25 per XP. Still not great, but slightly more reasonable. If you build 125 new units after you finish the pentagon, that's 5 per XP. At a base cost of 200 per MI. Base strength of 40, so it's 5 /str, combat I costs 10 under this plan, and gives you 4 str, so you end up with 2.5/str. I'll take that deal any day of the week, twice on a Monday. It's a useless build sometimes, sure, but for a drawn-out Conquest or Domination win, I think it's absurd not to build it.

Interesting comparison, although technically you're still missing an important part of the calculation - that is, less units (but more powerful ones) will also benefit you by costing less upkeep each turn.

For me, the Pentagon is usually a must-have wonder, especially if I have a Great Engineer lying around.

 

[LucyDuke]

Now there's an interesting idea. If Chichen Itza gave, say, +10% defence to all of your units when defending inside your borders, then it might be a considerably more useful wonder.

I think I'd actually bother to (try to) build it if that were the case.

Interesting comparison, although technically you're still missing an important part of the calculation - that is, less units (but more powerful ones) will also benefit you by costing less upkeep each turn.

You're just boosting my case. The difference in the number of units doesn't seem to be terribly dramatic, though. If you're exchanging six mech infantry (seems to be the going rate in this thread) to build the Pentagon, you just saved upkeep on six units, but after that, you're probably not going to say "hey, these units are stronger, I don't need as many!" to any really significant difference. I wouldn't, at least, YMMV.

 

[cabert]

You're just boosting my case. The difference in the number of units doesn't seem to be terribly dramatic, though. If you're exchanging six mech infantry (seems to be the going rate in this thread) to build the Pentagon, you just saved upkeep on six units, but after that, you're probably not going to say "hey, these units are stronger, I don't need as many!" to any really significant difference. I wouldn't, at least, YMMV.

In fact in the games where I actually built the pentagon, I ended up building more troops, because I felt the urge to get something out of it

 

[KMadCandy]

right except nothing "happens"
When you play the game you make things happen.
Why would you build your mechinfs in the red cross city rather than in your WP city?
Other troops don't start with march and can benefit more from the free medic I. Not to mention transports or other ships.
If you use your RC city to build units which don't benefit from the extra promotion, you actually are playing down RC.
It's the same if you build fighters or bombers in West Point city.
IMHO playing "better" (I'm not a great player, just a monarch/emperor level guy) includes paying attention to those things.

well, i was talking about just making troops in RC and WP for "having them around" purpose, stocking up pre-specific war. that's what i meant by "so red cross city just does that, and i keep whatever civics are best for what the rest of my empire is doing." the reasons i build my mechinfs in RC instead of WP at that point are:
if my red cross city isn't coastal (happens more often than i'd like), i can't build ships there. i probably play a lot more games that don't end up in a major intercontinental invasion than many of you guys, so you can't relate to that. the very best coastal RC city i ever had was a former barb city hehe. anyway, i don't tend to make marines ahead of time, either. i make them when it looks quite likely that i'll need them, of course.

building tanks/MA at RC is a total waste since they can't get medic at all. so if i'm just stocking up troops, not building a personalized stack of doom with a specific target in mind, they default instead to WP. if WP's making them, well...

i didn't put on that list that i love building some artillery at RC, and i make some of them march/CR1. pure CRx would make them more likely to survive the times i want a battering ram. but if a march/CR1 lives, i don't need to wait around for them to heal, they can keep moving and they can bombard until i want to batter again. the only way i can get march/CR1 right off the production line is to build them out of RC (only works there, lets me skip the combat 1 step) with barracks/pentagon, or change my civics (or have enough MIs, sometimes i do, sometimes i don't, sometimes they're in WP, sometimes i have a spare or 4 for RC, it varies). i have a feeling this whole marching artillery thing is noobish since i don't see it mentioned around here, and that most folks just promote more tanks up the barrage line, but i like the march angle and tanks can't get that. i am as always open to opinions here and as always reserve the right to change the way i do things or love the new (to me) ideas and implement them right away, as suits my mood.

gunships don't get medic, and i tend to use them more as harassers than actual fighters for the most part so if i'm limited on what i can build in the cities with the most promotions off the production line, gunships aren't my first choice, so if i wanna build some they just get built anywhere. fighters/bombers i just make out of any bored city of course.

this is a partial KMad recipe for stocking up spare troops when my inland RC city is bored, and likely works only for her. note the name of the poster, keep in mind that she is rather ... odd ... and add salt as per taste, and then add some more. oven temperatures and RNG rolls may vary, adjust as appropriate. offer not valid in france *giggle*. poster not responsible for any of the following: a) ingame losses of troops, loss of cities, or defeats on scoreboards; b) real-life damage caused to objects, or mental harm and/or injuries suffered by the player or family members that may result from frustration if a reader chooses to try this recipe; c) rolling of the eyes or boredom caused by reading this post (you can, after all, skip my posts); d) anything else bad i forgot to list here).

Same as above. Nothing "happens". It's your game, you make things happen.
So if there is a time of peace, it's probably because you didn't declare war, don't you think?
ANd if instead of researching towards the pentagon, you had researched towards flight or artillery, maybe you'd be fighting with the upper hand already? (just an assumption, no hard fact here)

oh! *lightbulb appear over my head*. (why is there no lightbulb icon???) that's the heart of it right there.

right now i'm in my "fill up my HoF" phase. so 90% of my recent games i want a specific win type, or i'm trying a map i've never tried before so i kinda want a certain win type to see if it works for me on that one but if it doesn't that's ok. so i'm like 180 degrees from your perspective. the things i want to make happen aren't the usual things at all *giggle*.

but the things i listed are the way i often play non-HoF games too if they go that long. i'm just odd, DoWg ASAP to win as fast as i can isn't always the most fun way for me to play it out. sometimes i get this urge to turn it into "lemme see how i can best manipulate these guys", so i make sure my power rating is high, and that i have enough troops to crush them within 3 turns if i change my mind , and then i play "how well can i decide who'll be friends and who'll be enemies and change the political picture from how it is now." yes, i am bizarre.

different playstyles obviously

now THAT should like be in my sig *gigglefest*

 

[OscarWildebeest]

I've stopped building Chicken Itcher since I read so many people slagging it off (note to KMad: I believe 'slag off' is British slang again, see here).

I can't help wondering, however, whether the defence bonus from the CI might be worth something to cities you have just taken over from the AI, which are thereby suddenly frontline cities and the first to be counter-attacked?

But what do I know, I'm a noob...

 

[LucyDuke]

I can't help wondering, however, whether the defence bonus from the CI might be worth something to cities you have just taken over from the AI, which are thereby suddenly frontline cities and the first to be counter-attacked?

That point makes chicken pizza seem slightly less worthless. It's not something to rely on, but it certainly couldn't hurt. The question of whether it's worth the hammers stands, though. It's 500, which could buy ten longbows. How many newly-captured cities are we talking, here? I think I'll let Bismark build it for me. The bastard owes me one for stealing my sheep...

 

[KMadCandy]

(note to KMad: I believe 'slag off' is British slang again, see here).

eep a forum stalker!! *giggle* but thank you, i would indeed have been confused since our "slack off" is completely different.

 

[HiroHito]

guys play with BetterAI/monarch or emperor level and watch your interest level grow towards Chichèn Itza hehe.

 

[Collier20]

The Sistine Chapel is definately useful. If you are going for a cultural win, its a must. If you pair it with Merc. or the Statue of Liberty, it helps bfc recently conquered cities. Bach's Catherdal is good for dealing with warmongering or on higher difficulty levels. Chichen Itza can slow down an attack. Sometimes delaying an assault on a city by a turn or two can make a big difference. Personally, I don't go for Stonehenge or the Oracle. Stonehenge gives you a monument in each city? I have never built a monument in the game. As for the Oracle, everyone goes for it. Its a crap shot. Sure you can get a free tech out of it, but I would rather use my time building the pyrmiads and jump ahead with representation for half the game, than Metal Casting.

 

[OscarWildebeest]

I would rather use my time building the pyrmiads and jump ahead with representation for half the game, than Metal Casting.

I tried this strategy on my current game and it's a humdinger (which I believe is American slang). Helps that I started with stone, of course.

 

[LucyDuke]

As for the Oracle, everyone goes for it. Its a crap shot. Sure you can get a free tech out of it, but I would rather use my time building the pyrmiads and jump ahead with representation for half the game, than Metal Casting.

I've never built the Oracle. Maybe once, a long time ago, but it's just never on my list now. It might not be the best plan, skipping it, but I just don't like the idea. So not quite everyone.

 

[popejubal]

Maybe I was a bit misleading. Building the pentagon isn't noobish.
Only the reasons invoked were.
I did build pentagon a few times too, but it never (and I mean never!) gave me an upper hand when I didn't already have it.
What I mean is if you can put the pentagon to good use, you probably don't need it .

The fact that I play on Large maps probably has quite a lot to do with the difference. It won't make or break a game, but I'd expect to pump out a unit every 4-5 turns from my production cities and I generally have 4-5 production cities, so that's about 1 unit per turn on average (when I'm not rushing the units). A free promotion on one unit per turn is a pretty decent advantage and that advantage is multiplied when I rush units (which I do very often when I'm preparing for or in the middle of a war).

PopeJubal stuff: Mech Infantry only need one medic in a stack. But if you have one city dedicated to producing Mech Infantry and that city happens to have Red Cross, then you're going to have a very comfortable level of Medic redundancy. The fact that these Medic units (Infantry or Mech Infantry depending on the era) have 2 promotions is just gravy.

Catbert stuff:
right except nothing "happens"
When you play the game you make things happen.
Why would you build your mechinfs in the red cross city rather than in your WP city?

When I play the game I make things happen. One of the things that I make happen is taking opponents' cities and defending my cities with my units. I like having a "free" promotion of my choice on each of my units. It's like getting Combat I on all of my gunpowder and Melee units, only better. Sure, it doesn't come until late in the game, but I think that everyone would agree that being Spiritual, Financial... AND Agressive has to have some limitations, right?

I build Mech Infantry in my Red Cross city. I build tanks and Modern Armor and Choppers and potentially Battleships/Destroyers/Submarines in my Heroic Epic/WestPoint city (which generally has its production rushed if there are ever any 2-turn units that need to be built). Pentagon + West Point + Barracks + one Great General = 11 XP for City Raider III or Combat II and the Tank-buster promotion or Flanking + Nav II for Transports. If I'm going to build Medic units, I want them built somewhere that isn't West Point. I'm not wasting those 11 XP on a medic unit. The only Mech Infantry that I'll build in my WP city is an occasional City Garrison III unit to help hold newly captured cities in foreign lands.

Other troops don't start with march and can benefit more from the free medic I. Not to mention transports or other ships.
If you use your RC city to build units which don't benefit from the extra promotion, you actually are playing down RC.
It's the same if you build fighters or bombers in West Point city.

Here's how newbish I am. I'll build Bombers for a couple of turns in my West Point city when I first discover the Flight/Radio combination. Since West Point also contains Heroic Epic, I want to churn out Bombers as fast as possible so that I can start a war quickly and crush my opponent before he has SAM Infantry or Fighters of his own. $$ Rushing is quite expensive in most cities, but $$ Rushing in a city with a Heroic Epic, Forge and Factory with Power is not nearly so painful. I like me those bombers.

As for Mech Infantry with Medic, those other units do benefit from the Mech Infantry with Medic. They're either hills-defense II with Medic or Combat II with Medic, so they're defending the stack. The other units get to spend their time resting without being attacked because the medic units that I brought with me can serve as stack defenders as well. Additionally, since they have march, I can still attack individual units as an opportunity arises and defend my stack at the same time.

Same as above. Nothing "happens". It's your game, you make things happen.
So if there is a time of peace, it's probably because you didn't declare war, don't you think?

If it's a time of peace, it's because I just won a war and I'm taking some time (probably 10 turns to let war weariness calm down) to digest my new territories and either improve my empire's economy or prepare for my next conquest.

ANd if instead of researching towards the pentagon, you had researched towards flight or artillery, maybe you'd be fighting with the upper hand already? (just an assumption, no hard fact here)

I'm acutally researching toward Infantry, Tanks and Factories. If the Pentagon were locked inside Fission, I doubt I'd ever build it. I almost always fight with the upper hand because I tend to attack targets of opportunity so that I can claim their land since I can run a net profit even on marginal cities with Communism and a captured holy shrine.

really? for the price of the pentagon, I build a fleet of fighters and bombers.
Those are making the difference between winning or losing a combat, including vs superior troops

I build the Pentagon plus a fleet of bombers.
I've never had much use for Fighters. If I'm attacking somewhere that Bombers won't reach, I'll take a single city with attacking units supported by Cannons, Artillery and Trebuchets (don't disband those Trebs! They still knock down culture defenses quite well!). Once I take that city, I just rebase my bombers. Fighters are good for defending your cities from bombers, but taking your opponent's cities is also good for defending your citites from bombers.

that's exactly my point : if you can build the pentagon and put it to good use, then you probably already are in a winning situation.
And you would win even without the not quite square thing.

I may be in a winning situation now, but you haven't won the game until you've won. I tend to win by domination or diplomacy (i.e. domination-lite). I'm a hard core builder at heart, but I keep seeing all of those lovely lands that I could be building on and I think, "those cities would be much more productive if I were running them..."

Pentagon helps me win. It doesn't make or break a game, but if you have an advantage, it pays to continue that advantage as long as you can and to amplify that advantage when you can. I like the Red Cross as a potential bonus to one of my production cities. I like the Pentagon since it counts as at least 5 Great Generals. More if I start building in every city after a quick switch to slavery for a Spiritual leader.

 

[cabert]

^^about pentagon.

It's probably just me then.
I never (almost) go for tanks.
I very often fight with riflemen(!) and artillery and fighters/bombers.
If I need to go further into the tech tree, I'll go for infantry all right, but it's quite rare that I get to build even a single tank .
Maybe it's the map size, maybe it's my priorities, but here is what I build and how:
- fighters/bombers in "commerce cities" (pop or cash rushed)
- ships/artillery in IW/RC city (if there is one)
- Infantry all over the place (pop, $ rushed, or drafted)
- artillery/infantry/ships in HE/WP.

It's just a general way of doing it.
Of course, if I have settled a few MI in my HE/WP city, I'll build artillery there for CR3, and build the infantry and ships somewhere else and if RC doesn't exist yet, I won't bother with them.

If you guys jave 100+ turns of building and using troops after pentagon, good for you. I know I don't.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The Pentagon is actually one of the few late wonders that are useful. It translates to a lot more military power (and more cost-effectively) than you think too, because modern units take more hammers, and you have a lot more cities, and larger ones too.

Chichen Itza... I believe it's useless, but there's one place that I haven't tried it yet: multiplayer duels. If it turns out to be useless, it's useless.