Using barbarians to get AI to use artillery

[Leaven]

So... both with enslave and with captured artillery, the resulting artillery units (the ones that are working right) have a different nationality (that of the civ or barbarians that they were captured from) right?

If that is the case, could it be the difference in nationality that is causing the AI to finally understand how to use these units? And if so, is there any other way of getting a unit to have a different nationality from your own?

 

[Vuldacon]

timeover 51... The importance can be reduced down to "having a worthy opponent"... Human Players are far stronger than the AI and this has a better potential to balance the Game Play in games. Otherwise, being able to have the AI do something that appears to go against its programing is significant, although the programing is still there and functioning as it was intentioned. If nothing else, it provides another way to have the AI do things in the game that it would otherwise not do, opening up new possibilities.

 

[tom2050]

So... both with enslave and with captured artillery, the resulting artillery units (the ones that are working right) have a different nationality (that of the civ or barbarians that they were captured from) right?

If that is the case, could it be the difference in nationality that is causing the AI to finally understand how to use these units? And if so, is there any other way of getting a unit to have a different nationality from your own?

I think you guys are on to something... it may be that an artillery unit of different nationality is causing AI to know how to use them. Since AnthonyBoscia said that enslaved artillery was being used also.

I tested with barb captured Charm artillery, and AI used them just as they did with barb captured non-Charm artillery. I also gave them ability to upgrade to slightly better artillery units, but so far AI has not upgraded any of them.

 

[Tortosa]

Could it be that the captured/enslaved units cost no maintainence, like a whole stack of captured artys that cost nothing to keep around, that makes the AI use them differently? Do captured artys retain their own nationality when upgraded or do they become regular units that now require gpt, which if true could explain why AI doesn't want to upgrade them? On the military advisor screen normal units are listed, but at the bottom there is a separate list for captured units - maybe this "separation of forces" could transfer to how the AI actually uses their units - with separate strategies for using domestic units vs captured units?

 

[tom2050]

Could it be that the captured/enslaved units cost no maintainence, like a whole stack of captured artys that cost nothing to keep around, that makes the AI use them differently? Do captured artys retain their own nationality when upgraded or do they become regular units that now require gpt, which if true could explain why AI doesn't want to upgrade them? On the military advisor screen normal units are listed, but at the bottom there is a separate list for captured units - maybe this "separation of forces" could transfer to how the AI actually uses their units - with separate strategies for using domestic units vs captured units?

I was just about to test a new game. I'll make it so captured barb artilleries (also set to no maint, although I overlooked that they don't require maint anyways!), to upgrade to artillery that also requires no maint.

*** But yes, upgrading a capture (Barbarian) artillery to any unit retains it's barbarian nationality; I just tried it. In this case it became a (Barbarian) Evil Eye . So it's still a free unit.

The screen shows the (Barbarian) Evil Eye at the bottom of the advisor screen under captured units.

Furthermore, the AI leaves the captured barb units hanging around all over the map until it actually has a use for them (such as wars against other AI/human), and only then will it move them and get defenders with them. It also does not seem to use them to help attack other barbarian camps.

Although if within range, it will attack barbarian units (if it just 'happens' to be next to one). A civ captured barb artillery was bombarding a normal barbarian ship for like 15 turns until it finally left the coast and went after another civ's ship.

 

[AnthonyBoscia]

it may be that an artillery unit of different nationality is causing AI to know how to use them.

Yeah, that's where I was headed with that. When you mentioned captured Barbarians, I was guessing that the foreign nationality was the trigger that changed their strategy. As far as I know, the three ways to get a foreign national unit are:
-Capture a buildable A/D 0/0 unit
-Enslave ability
-Setting the 'captured unit' in the General Settings, default is worker

As you noted, even upon upgrading the unit, they retain their nationality. I remembered that 'cause in my game the captured workers could upgrade to look like your own workers, but still retained their nationailty and inferior worker times. Like Vuldacon said, the AI will upgrade these units about as well as it upgrades any units. I tested this the other day and the results were the same.

My main concern is finding a good way to get the AI enslaved artillery without allowing the human player to capitalize on this to a massive advantage.

Also my main concern. Tom, your method is nice because there's a limited amount of bombard units on the map to grab. With enslave, things can quickly get out of control if the ability is too widespread. I'm working on incorporating this enslave method in my game for a couple classes (fusiliers make cannons, infantry make artillery) and then try a four-era game to see how it works. If you don't have civ-specific bombard units, like the regular game is set up, it's even easier because everyone's artillery is up for grabs. We'll see.

 

[Vuldacon]

Yes, When a Unit is Captured or "Rescued", as is the case in EFZI2, then Upgraded it retains its nationality which is a Pain due to not being able to see the Unit in the Military Advisor Screen and they are listed as 0 number of them because they were another CIVs unit... But that's the programing

Concerning the AI and Captured/Enslaved Units... The way they are used is probably affected more with the programing having to do with AI Strategy. Because the Units were not built, the AI Strategy would rely on ? programing for the Units. Guessing about this, the AI probably falls back on the settings for the Unit rather than the normal programing for AI Strategy settings. This would allow the Units to be used according to what they are but without being affected by the direct AI Strategy settings that the built units use. There is something programed for the difference and it would be Great to know exactly what that is

 

[Tortosa]

Yeah, that's where I was headed with that. When you mentioned captured Barbarians, I was guessing that the foreign nationality was the trigger that changed their strategy. As far as I know, the three ways to get a foreign national unit are:
-Capture a buildable A/D 0/0 unit
-Enslave ability
-Setting the 'captured unit' in the General Settings, default is worker

Also, a fourth way would be to capture a populated enemy city and build workers, settlers, or any unit that costs population in addition to shields. If an arty unit was set up to use a citizen when built, like a worker, it should keep the nationality of the citizen that was used. But there is no way to preplace foreigners in cities, right?

 

[tom2050]

Concerning the AI and Captured/Enslaved Units... The way they are used is probably affected more with the programing having to do with AI Strategy. Because the Units were not built, the AI Strategy would rely on ? programing for the Units. Guessing about this, the AI probably falls back on the settings for the Unit rather than the normal programing for AI Strategy settings. This would allow the Units to be used according to what they are but without being affected by the direct AI Strategy settings that the built units use. There is something programed for the difference and it would be Great to know exactly what that is

So if we could only figure out a way to have Armies (before they are loaded) to be captured, the game may fall back onto the original programming that was in vanilla when they worked!

-----

On another note, a fifth way to use it may be to have artillery enslave artillery with lethal land through bombard, but make it's bombard weaker so it doesn't happen en masse and become overwhelming.

 

[tom2050]

@Vuldacon: You might be able to partially solve the issue of AI not using units that can bombard in EFZI. If you place barbarian units that can be captured on the map from the start, AI will capture them and then they should use them actively. Of course they wouldn't be able to have any attack or defense, but it should work and you can have a variety of active AI artillery units at start of game. Would need testing to make sure though.

And if they are not available to the other civ's, it destroys them IIRC (this way other civ's can't use them).

 

[Vuldacon]

Tom... Yes I believe that would work but not for game play as it is.
The barbarian units are now "stray supply drops" and introducing barbarians would cause problems.

For any other situation and game knowledge, I appreciate the info and thoughts

This is what makes the difference in what can be done..., Good Job

 

[timerover51]

I guess that my style of play is sufficiently different from the majority of the forum as to make discussions like this beyond my comprehension. With my style, giving the AI a large quantity of actively used artillery would be tantamount to my committing suicide. The initial object of the thread, getting additional resources from barbarian camps was interesting, increasing the capacity of the AI to cause damage is not.

 

[Takhisis]

So if we could only figure out a way to have Armies (before they are loaded) to be captured, the game may fall back onto the original programming that was in vanilla when they worked!

They used to work? I haven't played vanilla since 2004 (when I got hold of Play the World) so I don't really remember… trust Firaxis to screw up something when doing an expansion…

On another note, a fifth way to use it may be to have artillery enslave artillery with lethal land through bombard, but make it's bombard weaker so it doesn't happen en masse and become overwhelming.

We could also capture torpedoes at sea…

I guess that my style of play is sufficiently different from the majority of the forum as to make discussions like this beyond my comprehension. With my style, giving the AI a large quantity of actively used artillery would be tantamount to my committing suicide. The initial object of the thread, getting additional resources from barbarian camps was interesting, increasing the capacity of the AI to cause damage is not.

The thing with experimental research is that you don't always get the results you expect… also, you might try playing differently, eh? I've changed styles myself over the years.

 

[tom2050]

We could also capture torpedoes at sea…

Well, it's all about gameplay vs. realism. It's not exactly realistic having artillery enslave artillery through bombard. But it is also not realistic having nations sit masses and masses of artillery around and never use them. So just depends on what may fit best for any particular scenario. Regardless, it's good for any ideas to be on these forums in case anyone wishes to to capitalize on them.

 

[Takhisis]

Well, some really fast torpedoes with Lethal Naval Bombardment… maaaybe the AI would use them. Just sayin'.

 

[tom2050]

AFAIK AI already uses naval ship bombard pretty well. You put torpedos in your mod that bombard cities? There's a graphic of a torpedo that shoots?

 

[Takhisis]

Eh? no, I was just thinking aloud…

 

[Moosezilla]

Just give pirates,corsairs,etc. bombard. I like it, but most mods don't do it.

 

[nick0515]

Tom, you're a bloody legend! (Is that expression used outside of New Zealand/Australia?)

I second the call for modder of the year!

This is fantastic news. Getting the AI to use Artillery properly is one of the holy grails of civ 3 modding.

I can't wait to try and impliment this in the MEM II 11th Century scenario.

I haven't been on the forums much as I've been obsessed with another game, but I may have to start testing this. Many possibilities are opening up with this. Great news!

Thank you!

 

[Sima Qian]

I think you guys are on to something... it may be that an artillery unit of different nationality is causing AI to know how to use them. Since AnthonyBoscia said that enslaved artillery was being used also.

I tested with barb captured Charm artillery, and AI used them just as they did with barb captured non-Charm artillery. I also gave them ability to upgrade to slightly better artillery units, but so far AI has not upgraded any of them.

I'm not entirely convinced that just changing the nationality is enough. I have a tool that sets every artillery in the game to be "Barbarian" nationality, and I still regularly find AI artillery fortified in cities. I think the artillery has to be in the field first before the offensive behavior can be triggered. Maybe if the AI fortifies the artillery in a city once, it is stuck there forever, only waking up to bombard an enemy unit that happens to pass by.

I've attached the tool for those of you who wish to play around with it. Just run it while you have a game loaded and you'll see the effect instantly. I've only tested it with C3C (English version) on Windows 7 though, so YMMV.