Using death/entropy mana as a diplomatic weapon

[Martti]

I recently conquered the Ashen Veil holy city, with their holy shrine. I decided not to raze the city, but to conquer it instead. However, I do not have much use for the entropy mana I got from the Veil shrine, certainly the diplomatic penalty is worse than the usefulness of the entropy mana for me currently. So, I decided to use diplomacy and gave the entropy mana as a gift to the Ljosalfar. The result is that the elves like me because I gave them a gift, while everyone else hates the elves because they use entropy mana. In this game the overcouncil shortly afterwards banned entropy mana which ended that trick, but giving entropy or death mana as gifts could be used undermine the diplomatic positions of your rivals, and if you need the mana yourself you can always end giving the mana.

 

[Polobo]

Taking advantage of the AI are we?

Anyway, how about a slight modification to this whereby the actual USE of the mana, not just its possession, counts for a diplomatic penalty. Any time a spell is cast that requires death/entropy mana the diplomatic penalty is incurred. Maybe have it go away after a little while (randomly) but also have multiple occurrences stack. I.E., "-15 You used LOTS of death mana you evil person!".

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that would make a lot more sense actually. not sure how much of an headache it would be to code in though, but if that's doable it might be a nice change. problem is, it would make the tower of mastery win easier as you could then build the necromancy tower without needing to worry about everyone else hating you.

 

[Polobo]

The tower itself could provide the negative diplomatic penalty ("-2 you worship death and entropy").

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yep, but that would only apply AFTER you've built it. this means you can build it as the last one of the 4 and have the diplomatic penalty active for a time a lot shorter than usual

 

[Monkeyfinger]

You can already do that. Build a metamagic node + elemental nodes so that you have all 4 types, build elemental tower, dispel all the elemental nodes and replace them with another one of the types, repeat until you have all 4 subtowers, with necromancy being the last one.

 

[Polobo]

I think he means that having access to death/entropy during the construction of the tower currently means you'll have the diplo demerits during the construction period; whereas if you do not actually use the mana then the negative period only exists during the during construction of the Tower of Mastery as opposed to during the construction of both.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

@Polobo: exactly not much of a difference probably, but it IS something to be aware of I guess.

 

[TheGreatSteve]

The penalty really should only apply if you use the mana. I don't know if it applies to regular FFH and the Sepulcher, but in my last Fall Further game I think I had a -4 for Entropy Mana just because I started near Bradeline's Well. Thankfully the Overcouncil had outlawed it so I joined and got a 10 point relationship shift with the good civs. (removed the -4, gained a +6 "fellow council")

 

[xienwolf]

Base FfH doesn't have that since Kael made Death Mana require Necromancy to connect for trade. So you will never gain Mana from the Broken Sepulcher unless you research Necromancy (showing a desire to use it)

 

[Arcite36575]

I recently conquered the Ashen Veil holy city, with their holy shrine. I decided not to raze the city, but to conquer it instead. However, I do not have much use for the entropy mana I got from the Veil shrine, certainly the diplomatic penalty is worse than the usefulness of the entropy mana for me currently. So, I decided to use diplomacy and gave the entropy mana as a gift to the Ljosalfar. The result is that the elves like me because I gave them a gift, while everyone else hates the elves because they use entropy mana. In this game the overcouncil shortly afterwards banned entropy mana which ended that trick, but giving entropy or death mana as gifts could be used undermine the diplomatic positions of your rivals, and if you need the mana yourself you can always end giving the mana.

Ha Ha! I've done exactly the same thing too. I found that out a long time ago by accident. One time, I wanted to get rid of my death mana because I was "good" and I didn't want the diplomatic penalty. The problem however is that all my trading partners were also good/neutral and if I offered death mana and entropy mana for trade, I had to offer most of my other resources and gpt for them to ACCEPT the mana. Gifting the mana seemed the easiest way to get rid of it. . . and inadvertly get the elves into a war with Basium.