Using great engineers

[tuska]

How often do you plant engineers vs rushing wonders? I generally plant a lot to increase long term production when there are no wonders I want to snipe. Should this be affected by game length, I would imagine in quick games you don't have the time to get much out of planting whereas in marathon games it might be better?

 

[psparky]

I nearly always rush - I will be interested to read what the case for planting if anyone posts that.

Regarding game speed, in principle the game scales and it should work out about the same. However I find my quick games take almost 80% of the turns for a standard game. As the general scale factor for quick is 67%, I think planting is actually a better proposition in a quick game, as in a sense, it lasts longer.

 

[JWideman]

I nearly always rush - I will be interested to read what the case for planting if anyone posts that.

Regarding game speed, in principle the game scales and it should work out about the same. However I find my quick games take almost 80% of the turns for a standard game. As the general scale factor for quick is 67%, I think planting is actually a better proposition in a quick game, as in a sense, it lasts longer.

It gives you the most benefit in a marathon game, actually. While the number of hammers/bulbs/everything needed scales, the number of unit moves per turn does not. Therefore, getting units out 10 turns earlier is an extra 20+ movement points per unit, even though you can make only the same number of units in that time as on quick.

 

[AdamCrock]

My Civ5 experience is low but I do something like 50/50 % for planting/rushing. I found out that planting is especially usefull for instanly connecting strategic resources like iron/coal/oil/uranium, it's even more usefull when the resources are located in the jungle or a marsh and insted for wasting a lot of turns You connect them instantly and can start producing strong units right away

 

[joncnunn]

I always used what few GE I got for Great Wonders. I prioritized Great Scientists instead.

Completing Liberty great person : If a GE is chosen at all it's because you want a wonder around that time; otherwise a GS should have been chosen (and that early planted as an academy)

Mayan calendar based great people: Usually there's another great person that's better to choose if you don't want a great wonder then, and so the GE keeps getting putting off for a later game world wonder.

World wonder yielding free great person: There are usually several other world wonders available when this one completes; so I'd always choose GE from this one and immedately use on another world wonder.

Faith based Great Engineers : Even if you had a stockpile of faith and so could insta build one the moment you entered the industrial era, it's already past the time that plannting a GE could yield more hammers in what's left of the game than the current prices of world wonders. And so these get bought the turn before being interested in acquiring a free great wonder.

Naturally acquired Great Engineers : I always ran Great Scientists instead; if I got any GE at all naturally it was already end game.

Note that in Civ V; every naturally acquired GE (and Great Merchant as well) increased the cost not only of the next GE but the next GS; and in Civ V Great Scientists were much more powerful.

 

[Cicerosaurus]

Naturally acquired Great Engineers : I always ran Great Scientists instead; if I got any GE at all naturally it was already end game.

Could you please explain this for me as I'm not sure I understand it. If you "naturally acquire a great engineer" how do you run a great scientist?

 

[AdamCrock]

^ Methinks he meant that he alwas care to have more GPP* towards GS* but over time if there are wonders/buildings/specialists that give GPP* towards GE* the counter for him will eventually hit the end and GE* will spawn even unitended, thus he will be "aquired naturally"

*
GPP - (Great Person "+" Points)
GE - (Great Engineer)
GS - (Great Scientist)

 

[Cicerosaurus]

Thanks- I understood the pints you have raised- for instance Stonehenge will more than likely give you Engineer points. What I can't understand is the implied that somehow you get a great scientist.

 

[AdamCrock]

To achieve this : If I had those wonders which would give me GPP towards GE I would than check "Manually manage specialists" checkbox in the city management screen and assign some scientists to libraries and universities to make my GS GPP count higher than that of GE so that GS would spawn before GE. Each time a great person is born the counter increses (it's like 0/100 towards GS and when he spawns the next one is 0/200 and so on). The thing is however when GS is born the counter for GE is increased too -> I've also noticed that "artists kind" (GA,GW,GM) counters and "scientist kind" (GS and GE) counters are separate but each "kinds" counter types are connected : which means GS is connected with GE but not with GA and conversly GA is connected with GW and GM but not with GS. This probably has something to do with World Congress "Fund Sciences" and "Fund Arts" options

 

[Cicerosaurus]

Thanks- I understand that. And I get the point about manually assigning specialists to universities and public schools or whatever. However (using Stonehenge as an example) it assigns you one GE point and I didn't think that could be changed- so unless you have a very quick game you will get a GE anyway. Unless you don't build Stonehenge of course.

 

[AdamCrock]

Yes indeed , You are right Now we are at the beginning and that is why joncnunn originally wrote "naturally aquired engineers".

Here's an example of how it works :
You've build Stonhenge and gradually it gives You +1 towards GE and the counter increses. You have assigned specialists in libraries etc. to beat that +1 with +2 for GS and here's how the counters will act over time (for purposes of explainig counters I assume that this will not change over time - it usuall is affected by factors like national epic, social policies, congress laws etc. etc.) :

Turn 0
GS 0/100
GE 0/100
Turn 1
GS 2/100
GE 1/100
Turn 25
GS 50/100
GE 25/100
Turn 50
GS 100/100 - GS spawns
GE 50/100
Turn 51
GS 2/200
GE 51/200

And so on - like You've noticed GE will eventually spawn

edit: And by "running a GS" what joncnunn meant is that he would always opt / strive for the GS to have a higher GPP than GE.

 

[psparky]

Assuming you are working multiple GS slots in multiple cities, in practice the GE will not be spawned in the time frame of the game.

Once you get science from specialists (Secularism) working GE slots becomes more attractive and this is more likely the reason you might spawn a GE - you may want to juggle your slots in different cities to delay a GE.

Note also that GA/GM/GW are not linked and each have their own counter. Also libraries do not have a specialist slot in civ v.

 

[Redaxe]

What's wrong with generating a couple of Engineers? If you are rushing a SV wouldn't using Engineers on Statue of Liberty and Hubble Space Telescope still help with a SV?

 

[AdamCrock]

Note also that GA/GM/GW are not linked and each have their own counter. Also libraries do not have a specialist slot in civ v.

Of course my bad ! Sorry for that error I just assumed that because in most cases in my games their counters are nearly the same - I build their respective guilds atm they are available - each guild in a separate parent city and they are working non-stop. I really enjoy theming up bonuses and fast adopting policies - also I nearly always quickly grab aesthetics tree - so that is why I thought they are linked (eventually they make even and I didnt really checked on them often) Im still relatively new to Civ 5 so please forgive me my disinformation

 

[joncnunn]

Coming back to this thread:
Yes, by "naturally acquired". I mean great people born via great people points; as opposed to the other ways of getting them that I listed before.
Yes, I'd pretty much ensure I was running Great Scientists at a high enough rate; but unless there was a very good reason not to all cities were running all scientist slots anyway, so it's more a matter of ensuring that the city was not running any Great Engineer spot if there was significant risk of that eventually spawning a GE. (As a practical matter, this means unless its end game, don't run engineers or merchants in the capital.)

 

[Medabird]

What's wrong with generating a couple of Engineers? If you are rushing a SV wouldn't using Engineers on Statue of Liberty and Hubble Space Telescope still help with a SV?

Well, you only have 1 scale for G Engineers, Scientists and Merchants. I don't remember the exact scale but it is something like 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600 GPPs, ect.
Now if your going to have 3100 points of "spent" GPP by a certain point in the game then you can only have 5 great persons. That's it (within that timeframe).
If your first 3 are Great Scientists, then you have 2 Great Engineers, and your last one is a Great Scientist then you come out of it with 3 Scientists and 2 rushed wonders.
If all 5 are Great Scientists then you end up with 5 Scientists.

The point is that the GP you get are pretty fixed within a certain time frame, you can have 3 Scientists, 2 Engineers, 0 Merchants, or you can have 5 Scientists, or another combination.
The real point is that people generally view the Science Victory Condition as a race, more Scientists means you go faster, detouring to get an Engineer slows you down, and don't even think about getting no Great Merchant! We raised you better then that, Sonny

However this is often not the Olympics and if you want to detour and get an Engineer for a wonder then go ahead Efficiency isn't the only goal

 

[choraltrickster]

Completing Liberty great person : If a GE is chosen at all it's because you want a wonder around that time; otherwise a GS should have been chosen (and that early planted as an academy)

Mayan calendar based great people: Usually there's another great person that's better to choose if you don't want a great wonder then, and so the GE keeps getting putting off for a later game world wonder.

I found this really interesting. I'm not the best player here--just beat Deity for the first time yesterday--but when I play Mayans I take the GE as my first Baktun and soon after finish Liberty for another GE. These will often go towards two faith wonders--sometimes I have generated 0 faith and grab an instant religion with Hagia Sofia. Other times I'll use the two GEs for Petra and Machu (or save one for Sistine if I miss out on these two). These plays help me to claw my way out of the start penalty. Occasionally I'll use a GE for my NC, but not often--the wonders are too tempting. My next Mayan GP will be a GS which I'll plant (unless I'm desperate for a General).

Do these moves make sense? What 'better great person's would you (all) be taking at that point in the game--turns 80-120 (Edit: I always play Standard/Standard)? Thanks!

 

[peterabc1995]

I found this really interesting. I'm not the best player here--just beat Deity for the first time yesterday--but when I play Mayans I take the GE as my first Baktun and soon after finish Liberty for another GE. These will often go towards two faith wonders--sometimes I have generated 0 faith and grab an instant religion with Hagia Sofia. Other times I'll use the two GEs for Petra and Machu (or save one for Sistine if I miss out on these two). These plays help me to claw my way out of the start penalty. Occasionally I'll use a GE for my NC, but not often--the wonders are too tempting. My next Mayan GP will be a GS which I'll plant (unless I'm desperate for a General).

Do these moves make sense? What 'better great person's would you (all) be taking at that point in the game--turns 80-120 (Edit: I always play Standard/Standard)? Thanks!

In Standard/Standard, on turn 84/101/117 we have chance to take great people.
GE if I have chance to build Petra/Chichen Itza/Notre Dame.
Great General if I have no wonders to rush now . It can extend lands by making citadels.
Great Admiral if I'm playing Continents/Archipelago.