[BTS] Using GS for golden age

[earthy]

So I was playing a game last night where I snagged mids in my capital, and also had stonehenge in a captured city. I won the music race, used the GA to start a golden age, and switched into caste/pacifism. Thanks to a combination of bad luck and bad planning, I missed my 50% chance for a scientist in both cities and popped a GP/GE. Slightly tilted, I said "screw it" and used them to start a second golden age as soon as the first ended.

On the second GA I only ran scientists where there was no GP contamination, and I was able to grab three great scientists!

This has me wondering if it would have been beneficial to start a second GA even if I had popped two scientists. Instead of getting 2 GS in 10 turns, I end up with 3 GS after 20 turns, and an additional 10 turns of increased production and commerce.

What are your guys thoughts on this? I'm having a real tough time seeing the downside to a second GA here.

 

[drewisfat]

The first issue is, you can't use GPs of the same type for a GA, so you couldn't use two scientists.
Scientists are the most valuable GP for their Academy building but especially for bulb value. Using them for GAs is not ideal.

The flaw in your thinking even if you could use 2 scientists for a GA is that you push the next GA to require 3 people AND additional great people take more and more GPP. So yes you could rush more GP this way a little faster, but I bet after you popped those scientists from your 2nd GA you were pretty much done popping great people. Also the later you use your GA the more cities/tiles you're working so the greater the bonus.

I also like to use at least one GA for the war buildup. That way I can take full advantage of the extra hammers to build units as quickly as possible. In addition, switching from full eco to full military production almost always comes with a big civic switch, so I want a GA to eliminate the anarchy. I'll usually do a civic swap on day 1, and then on the last day of the GA do a final civic swap, usually to get out of like Pacifism.

Lastly in your specific case, using a GE at that stage in the game for a GA is generally a mistake. While you might have to just let him idle for a bit it is generally better to save the GE for a wonder, in particular for the Taj Mahal. This is because Nationalism is the most common free tech people grab from liberalism. But also the efficiency. You're trading one great person (the GE) instead of two for a GA. AND that GA doesn't increase the GP cost of subsequent GAs. AND you deny the AI the Taj, a wonder it definitely benefits from and that you can't benefit from even if you capture it.

 

[earthy]

I didn't know you couldn't use two great people of the same type. good to know. As for the Taj, would a GE cover the whole thing? I remember with certain wonders it doesn't give enough hammers, but I can't recall which ones. Regardless, I don't know how I feel about idling him at that point in the game. Usually I'm gearing up for a war at that point, so the snowball effect of the extra production and commerce right away seems really good.

Also yeah, I definitely did notice a slowdown in great people afterwards, but I didn't really mind because I was pretty well done teching at that point. The increased production right away was also really nice because once a city had popped its GP, I could switch to production tiles and get forges or last minute barracks/stables/he before the upcoming war.

I can see how it's more economical long term to hold on to the GE, and also how it's probably best to use as few great people as possible for a golden age since each one makes the next that much harder to get, but idk this really felt like it got me where I needed to be a little faster than if I had just popped two scientists and used them to bulb towards lib.

 

[Qactus]

...it is generally better to save the GE for a wonder, in particular for the Taj Mahal. This is because Nationalism is the most common free tech people grab from liberalism. But also the efficiency. You're trading one great person (the GE) instead of two for a GA. AND that GA doesn't increase the GP cost of subsequent GAs. AND you deny the AI the Taj, a wonder it definitely benefits from and that you can't benefit from even if you capture it.

...AND if you complete the Taj Mahal while still in a Golden Age you get one extra turn of GA for free

 

[Gumbolt]

A Ge give 500 hammers plus 20 hammer for each pop. So a size 10 city gives 500+20x10=700.

So a GE could easily complete the TM wonder. Of course other might want to save it for a corp or something else. Pends on your winning strategy,

You need to be careful with golden ages. If you focus scientists on cities with wonders you often get unwanted results.

GP can be useful for captured shrines if it has been wide spread.

In terms of golden ages you want 2-3 high food cities that can run 6-7 scientists over 8 turns. Preferably with NE built in one of them.

 

[earthy]

Are you not concerned with the great artists points from NE? I never really build it because of that.

 

[Gumbolt]

Benefit vs reward. As long as you are running a lot of scientists or merchants you should be okay. It is a useful national wonder. It's wonders like Oracle or SH that give you priest points that you could of avoided. NE and HE are useful wonders.

Albeit with many using a golden age for great people I can see how some might not use it so much. Getting 1 artist is not a disaster. A clean GP pool does avoid some risks.

The above is why I try to build some wonders in non food cities. With NE it pretty much should go into your best food city. Ideally 2-3 food resources. Plus farmed tiles. RNG is always a curse in terms of what you get.

 

[earthy]

I think I must have the wrong understanding of great people. I thought it didn't matter how many points of each type you had, but simply how many sources. I.e. running 1 merchant and 5 scientists would still give 50/50 after however many turns. I thought I read something to that effect in the war academy.

As for wonders, I never really build oracle or stonehenge myself, I just end up capturing them in an early war. They're usually in such good cities that it feels wrong to not run scientists there. I used to love wonder whoring with Inca(who didn't though right ), but lately i'll only ever build mids/great library if I have stone, sometimes GLH, and the HE. Even GLH I'm starting to become less fond of, because losing trade routes during war really sucks some of the value out of it. It also makes me more inclined to settle additional cities on the coast, when I might instead have found a better BFC moving a few tiles inland.

 

[AcaMetis]

It may have been the case in earlier version of the game, but currently the chance of getting a particular great person depends on how many of that GP's points are invested in the pool. A NE city running 6 Scientist will only get something like a 2% chance to pop a GA at most, so it's reasonably safe to use the NE to generate GP. Not a sure thing, you'll still get the odd GA now and again, but if you do you can always use it to start a Golden Age or maybe bring a key city out of revolt immediately later on.

 

[sampsa]

I thought it didn't matter how many points of each type you had, but simply how many sources. I.e. running 1 merchant and 5 scientists would still give 50/50 after however many turns.

In your example, there are 6 sources (1 merchant, 5 scientists), so the spawning will be GM 1/6th of the time. However, if we also add oracle into that city, there is a 7th source. Now it will be GP 1/7th, GM 1/7th and GS 5/7th of the time. How many -points those sources create doesn't matter.

 

[earthy]

Ahh that makes sense. I must have read that about wonders and conflated it with specialists.

edit: does a settled specialist also count as its own source?

 

[sampsa]

does a settled specialist also count as its own source?

No, it's not a source since it doesn't generate -points.

 

[AcaMetis]

In your example, there are 6 sources (1 merchant, 5 scientists), so the spawning will be GM 1/6th of the time. However, if we also add oracle into that city, there is a 7th source. Now it will be GP 1/7th, GM 1/7th and GS 5/7th of the time. How many -points those sources create doesn't matter.

Wait, really? I was sure that the chance of which GP pops depends on how many GPP of that GP are invested in the pool. Say you try to get a GS out of a city that's worked a Caste Artist for three turns to get a border pop, you'd have something like a 1/50 to get a GA and 49/50 to get a GS. Assuming you only got GS points after running the artist, of course.

 

[sampsa]

Wait, really? I was sure that the chance of which GP pops depends on how many GPP of that GP are invested in the pool.

From what I understand, that is incorrect. The chance depends on how many turns every source has generated GPP.

Say you try to get a GS out of a city that's worked a Caste Artist for three turns to get a border pop, you'd have something like a 1/50 to get a GA and 49/50 to get a GS. Assuming you only got GS points after running the artist, of course.

That is correct, assuming the cost of that is around 500 GPP.

 

[AcaMetis]

I'll give it a quick test.

Working 8 Scientists (+24 per turn) and 1 Artist (+3 per turn) with a PHI leader for 5 turns results in 88% Great Scientist, 12% Great Artist - 240 Scientist in the pool, 30 Artist in the pool, total of 270/300 . Working 5 Artists for 1 turn (total 30 artist in the pool) and than 8 Scientists for 5 turns (total 240 scientist in the pool, same ratio as before) results in...88% Great Scientist, 12% Great Artist, same as before. Working 5 artists for 1 turn and 1 scientist for 40 turns...still 88% Great Scientist, 12% Great Artist. Maybe it's based on number of sources? 5 artists for one turn, than Red Cross/National Park/Oxford (+3 scientist , thank you WB) and running 1 scientist for 20 turns...still 88% GS, 12% GA.

Seems to be based purely on great person pool points to me, though I may have forgotten to test something.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yes I think wonders can influence it. Which is why people have 2-3 cities. Point is this city will spam a lot more great people over time. The key thing is to be able to burn through 2-3 techs to give you a big advantage. 1 great artist is not a terrible thing.

 

[dankok]

Well you have to consider your options. Later in the game say in Industrial or even Renaissance using GP for Golden Ages is generally worthwhile especially if you can do it with a single GS. Bulbing may save you two to three turns of research which isn't worth it and settling or building an Academy doesn't have time to pay off.

 

[sampsa]

Seems to be based purely on great person pool points to me, though I may have forgotten to test something.

I recall that the % given by the game are incorrect, but it could have been patched. Or just one of those false rumors...

 

[6K Man]

A lot of confusion in this thread, hopefully I don’t add to it.

To generate a Great Person (GP), you need to generate enough Great Person Points (GPP) in one city to fill that city’s GPP ‘bucket’. At normal speed, the GPP bucket initially holds 100 GPP. Each time you fill it and generate a GP, the bucket empties and the capacity goes up in all cities – from 100 GPP to 200, then 300 for the third one and so on (the progression increases after you generate your 10th GP)

From the Civ4 wiki:

Great Person Threshold
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13

Quick 67 134 200 267 334 400 467 534 600 667 800 934 1067
Normal 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000 1200 1400 1600
Epic 150 300 450 600 750 900 1050 1200 1350 1500 1800 2100 2400
Mara. 300 600 900 1200 1500 1800 2100 2400 2700 3000 3600 4200 4800

GPP are generated in 3 ways – from specialists (each specialist generates 3GPP per turn, of whatever type the specialist is – Scientist, Merchant, Artist, Engineer, Priest, Spy), from Wonders (World Wonders generate 2 GPP per turn and National Wonders generate 1 GPP per turn, of a particular type – again, Scientist, Merchant, Artist, Engineer, Priest, Spy), and from Shrines (1 Prophet GPP/turn). The amount of base GPP generated per turn can be modified by things like city buildings (Forum), Wonders (Parthenon, National Epic), Civics (Pacifism) and Golden Ages.

The type of GP you get when the bucket is full is determined by the percentage of GPP of each type in the bucket. So for example, Stonehenge generates two Priest GPP per turn. Assuming you don’t run any specialists and don’t have any other Wonders in the Stonehenge city, in 50 turns, the city with Stonehenge in it will produce a Great Person, and that Great Person will have a 100% chance of being a Great Prophet. Now, assume instead that the Stonehenge city builds a Library 25 turns after Stonehenge is completed, and runs 2 Scientist specialists thereafter. Each Scientist generates 3GPP. So now the city will generate 8GPP/turn, 6 Scientist and 2 Prophet. And the GPP bucket progresses like this:

Turn 25 – 50 Priest GPP
Turn 26 – 52 Priest, 6 Scientist (58 GPP total)
Turn 27 – 54 Priest, 12 Scientist (66 total)
Turn 28 – 56 Priest, 18 Scientist (74 total)
Turn 29 – 58 Priest, 24 Scientist (82 total)
Turn 30 – 60 Priest, 30 Scientist (90 total)
Turn 31 – 62 Priest, 36 Scientist (98 total)

On turn 32, the city will generate a Great Person. There’s about a 63% chance it will be a Great Prophet, and about a 37% chance that it will be a Great Scientist*. What determines the GP’s type is the amount of points in the pool, not how many points of each type that the city generated that turn. The bucket empties, and the excess GPP (6 GPP) go into the empty bucket. Now that bucket needs 200 GPP for the next GP, less the 6 it got on turn 32.

Things to remember:

1. The GPP bucket is filled city-by-city, but when the bucket size increases, it increases for all cities. So if City 1 generates a Great Prophet, the next GP will require 200 GPP, whether it’s generated in City 1 or any other city.
2. Great Generals are generated by combat (or Fascism) and don’t impact your GPP pool.
3. “Free” Great People (like the free Great Artist at Music, or the Great Scientist at Physics) don’t affect your GPP bucket. A free GP doesn’t affect how many GPP you need for your next one.
4. “Free” specialists (like the 2 free Scientists you get from the Great Library, or the free specialist you get from Mercantilism or Statue of Liberty) generate GPP (3 each). Settled Great People do not generate GPP.
5. Citizen specialists don’t generate GPP. If you are entitled to a free specialist in every city, a city with no open specialist slots (which are unlocked by building things like Libraries, Temples, or Forges, or by the Caste System civic) will only be able to run a Citizen specialist.

It gets complicated if you have 2 or more cities generating GPP. Consider this example: I finish building Great Lighthouse in City 1, and a Library in City 2 on the same turn (for purposes of this example, I don’t have any wonders or specialists in other cities). City 1 will generate a Great Merchant in 50 turns (2 GPP/turn x 50 turns). City 2 will generate a Great Scientist in 17 turns (6 GPP/turn x 17 turns). 17 turns later, I have my Great Scientist. But now, the ‘bucket’ needs 200 GPP to fill it. And City 1 has just 34 GPP. It’ll now take 83 more turns for City 1 to get that Great Merchant, not 33. Meanwhile, City 2 is still putting out 6 Scientist GPP per turn. It has 2 overflow from when it filled the last bucket, so it needs 198 more GPP. So in 33 more turns, I’ll get another Great Scientist. Now City 1 has 100 GPP (34+(2x33)), but it now needs 300 GPP to fill its bucket and generate a Great Merchant. City 2’s bucket is empty, but it is still generating 6GPP per turn, so in 50 turns (6x50), it’ll generate yet another Great Scientist. You can probably see where this is going – City 2 will generate a lot of Great Scientists before City 1, chugging along at 2 Merchant GPP/turn, ever generates a Great Merchant. This is why a lot of players tend to focus their GPP production on 1 city, or possibly 2. You get the most out of your GPP if they are concentrated in in city – two GPP-focused cities won’t produce twice as many GP as one city will. So you’ll often put Great Library, National Epic, etc, in a city with a big food surplus, and run as many specialists as you can, there. If you have a state religion, you’ll want to spread it to your GP city so you can benefit from Pacifism’s +100% modifier to GPP. Etc.

TL;DR - you don’t get this kind of depth in Civ5

*I don’t know how the points on turn 32 are distributed. The city needs 2 GPP to fill the bucket. Does it add 1.5 Scientist points and 0.5 Priests points? Or does it add 2 GPP of one type? Does the overflow work the same way? Is there any rounding involved? If anyone knows, please chime in.

 

[sampsa]

*I don’t know how the points on turn 32 are distributed. The city needs 2 GPP to fill the bucket. Does it add 1.5 Scientist points and 0.5 Priests points? Or does it add 2 GPP of one type? Does the overflow work the same way? Is there any rounding involved? If anyone knows, please chime in.

These overflow points are of no type, and it seems that their type is determined based on the sources ran on the "first" turn.