USSR Like it or not?

[lovett]

I think given that the USSR would likely have been defeated by Nazi Germany had Trotsky been in power, and given that the allies wouldnt have been able to defeat a Nazi empire that stretached fomr the Urals to the Atlantic, yeah I think overall the good did outwegh the bad. I just dont buy it that being a Soviet satellite was as bad for Eastern and Central Europe as being under the Nazis was. Dont get me wrong; he was responsible for some absolutely unforgivable crimes, horrific ones.

I think you underestimate the damage Stalin did to the Soviet ability to wage war, and perhaps overestimate the importance of the five year plans. First and foremost, the purges completely crippled the Red Army. Every general had been 'removed' and almost 40,000 officers executed. The result was an army completely stymied and unfit for purpose. Every level of command was pervaded by incompetence and despite the example of Blitzkrieg in France commissars stuck to repetitive failed tactics for months into the war. Hell, the Red Army couldn't even defeat Finland!

Tactically, Stalin was a pretty big burden. It's his fault that the Soviet lines were so woefully unprepared for Operation Barbarossa, especially since he had intelligence regarding the incoming German attack. It was he who refused to let Soviet forces retreat in the face of German advance. It was he who repeatedly hashed up tactical decisions and refused to modernise the Red army. The result as I'm sure you know, was the complete and utter decimation of Soviet forces by the Wehrmacht.

In contrast, Trotsky was a keen moderniser and possessed a decent tactical mind. It is very unlikely he would have destroyed the Red Army's operational capacity like Stalin did. Indeed, his past actions suggest that he would have worked to vastly increase said capacity. It was his influence which had originally transformed the Red Army from a band of loosely connected rebels into an organized, disciplined and modern military machine. A Red Army under his command would not have been made to look completely incompetent first by the Finns then by the Germans.

As for industrialisation, I think it's very hard to say how a Trotsky led program would have compared with that of Stalin. But modern estimates don't actually rate industrial growth under Stalin amazingly highly. I.e, about 6% per annum. That's impressive. But to say it's unattainable by any leader but Stalin seem like a bit of an exaggeration.

You know that Stalin sold the grain to buy the machinery for the plans, right?

Actually, IIRC, grain sales never constituted a significant source of foreign currency. Although he planned to do this, collectivisation turned into such a mess that it never really worked out.

 

[Dachs]

I don't see any Soviet leader joining the League of Nations out of pure spite for having been left out of Versailles.

But they ended up joining it anyway, in late 1934...

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

But they ended up joining it anyway, in late 1934...

They had like an envoy or something to it almost since it was created, but that's not the same thing.

I'd forgotten about them actually joining it. I wonder what drove them to do so.

 

[red_elk]

Every general had been 'removed'

Every?

and almost 40,000 officers executed. The result was an army completely stymied and unfit for purpose. Every level of command was pervaded by incompetence

4% of total number of serving officers were repressed before WW2.

It was he who repeatedly hashed up tactical decisions and refused to modernise the Red army.

Red Army was modernized with all haste before war against his will?

 

[Sharwood]

They had like an envoy or something to it almost since it was created, but that's not the same thing.

I'd forgotten about them actually joining it. I wonder what drove them to do so.

Fear of Hitler, probably combined with a desire to strengthen the economy through trade. Diplomacy would doubtless assist in that.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Every?

For Army officers, I seem to recall a number like 2 in 5 or so, but it is true that all admirals were removed.

4% of total number of serving officers were repressed before WW2.

Yes, but they were almost all upper echelon.

Red Army was modernized with all haste before war against his will?

Didn't you know? The T-34 spontaneously appeared one day in Chelyabinsk. It landed on top of a gyspy with one of those dancing monkeys that played an accordion. Of course, the only song he knew was Kalinka, so no one in town liked him. A good laugh was had by all.

 

[Masada]

Didn't you know? The T-34 spontaneously appeared one day in Chelyabinsk. It landed on top of a gyspy with one of those dancing monkeys that played an accordion. Of course, the only song he knew was Kalinka, so no one in town liked him. A good laugh was had by all.

Brilliant, I never knew the Soviet Union was capable of impromptu dancing! Did Uncle Joe ever get up on stage and burst into dance ala' Yeltsin?

 

[Dachs]

Brilliant, I never knew the Soviet Union was capable of impromptu dancing! Did Uncle Joe ever get up on stage and burst into dance ala' Yeltsin?

Nah, Hitler was the dancer.

 

[Masada]

There were two Hitlers?! Which one is still alive!

 

[Sharwood]

There were two Hitlers?! Which one is still alive!

They both are. There was originally just one, but he went back in time. He's dating Felicity Shagwell now.

 

[Dachs]

They both are. There was originally just one, but he went back in time. He's dating Felicity Shagwell now.

I thought he was more Robin Spits-Swallows' type.

 

[Sharwood]

I thought he was more Robin Spits-Swallows' type.

Sadly, that reference escapes me. Although I'd definitely date a girl with that name.

 

[Dachs]

Sadly, that reference escapes me. Although I'd definitely date a girl with that name.

Same movie. Start at about 5:30. Apparently it's Spitz, not Spits, according to the credits, but meh.

 

[Sharwood]

Same movie. Start at about 5:30. Apparently it's Spitz, not Spits, according to the credits, but meh.

Thought it would be from one of the three, but didn't remember her. I remember Ivana Shagalot, Elotta Fagina, Fook Me and Fook Yu, etc., but not that one.

 

[Dachs]

Ivana Humpalot, and Alotta, not Elotta. It's almost like you're not as juvenile as I am.

To return to the topic, there's a disconnect between eliminating a large portion of the educated officer cadres and having reasonably good equipment. Technical advantages matter little if they ain't used the right way, as Luttwak's excellent analogy of the shoulder-launched missile launchers shows quite well.

 

[Roller123]

I think you underestimate the damage Stalin did to the Soviet ability to wage war, and perhaps overestimate the importance of the five year plans. First and foremost, the purges completely crippled the Red Army.

You have to remember that Russia has a revolution not long ago at that time. All sorts of random people came to power. Bandits and murderers. The purges were necessary to remove these people from power. and yes, well it hurt the army. Understandably so.

 

[Dachs]

You have to remember that Russia has a revolution not long ago at that time. All sorts of random people came to power. Bandits and murderers. The purges were necessary to remove these people from power. and yes, well it hurt the army. Understandably so.

Stalin was a former theological student turned revolutionary. Trotsky was a more respectable person than he was.

 

[Roller123]

I dont care about Trotsky. Neither am i saying Stalin was a saint. But purging military of potentially unstable people was not the worst idea.

 

[Sharwood]

I dont care about Trotsky. Neither am i saying Stalin was a saint. But purging military of potentially unstable people was not the worst idea.

Unstable people like Zhukov?

 

[Dachs]

Unstable people like Zhukov?

Well, you can give Stalin license to miss a few; he was getting rid of some of those really bad dudes like Rokossovsky and Tukhachevsky.