USSR Like it or not?

[red_elk]

Obviously not. And if you go to court against a Russian polkovnik, you are literally asking for it, right?

Depends on polkovnik. What is connection to this topic?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Yeah. Starting on the 17th of September, 1939, the Soviet Union deployed some 35 divisions under the command of Mikhail Kovalev and Semyon Timoshenko into two Fronts, the Belorussian and Ukrainian, which conducted an advance westward into Polish territory. You may have heard of this troop movement. How was that a liberation?

I had a blonde moment and forgot about the 1939 Polish Gangbang. I was thinking of 1944-45.

 

[lovett]

Zhukov, Konev, Voroshilov, Timoshenko, Budyonny, Vasilevsky, Rokossovsky, Tolbukhin, Malinovsky, Bagramyan... I can continue.
All of them were executed? Or appeared from nowhere before war? From your messages, it looks like you think that almost all high commanders were executed before start of war.

What's you point? Stalin didn't execute all his senior commanders and just tortured and imprisoned a few? Moreover, when he realised that perhaps offing his officers was not such a good idea (maybe it was the millions of Germans inside Russia that gave it away) he decided to reinstate a few?

Thus the true face of tactical genius is revealed.

Yes, they were required, no doubt. Hundreds of thousands officers with good combat experience, for 5 million army, would be good to have. The question is where to find them?

I don't know, I imagine the Army would be a good place to start. That's how they usually do it. I'll repeat that there was not a lack of combat experience in the Red Army as a whole. Only in the senior echelons. Almost 80% of Rifle commanders had good combat experience, and the USSR had been very active militarily since its birth. Where to find them was the easy part, the problem was that Stalin valued loyalty so far above any other trifling attributed like competence or experience that having actually fought in a war wasn't really considered. Unfortunately, it's the senior officers who control and organize the army. If they're incompetent, the army is incompetent.

- WW1 and civil war were 20 years before - quite a long time.
- Incorporation of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania didn't create any combat experience.
- "Invasion of Poland" - If you mean liberation of Western Ukraine and Belorussia in 1939, after Poland's occupation in 1920, it also didn't create a lot of experience, as army of Poland already didn't exist at the moment.
- Finland - agree, but anyway scale of conflicts are incomparable.

Twenty years is not a long time. It's just about bloody perfect for career soldiers. If soldiers were in their twenties during WWI and the civil war they should have been between forty and fifty come WWII. The senior ranks of the Red Army should have been chock full of these men, rather then loyal stooges.

Moreover, it's simply ridiculous to claim that the Invasion of Finland was a conflict to small to significantly affect the levels of Soviet military experience. The USSR invaded with one million men. Or, according to Khrushchev, 1.5 million men. That's over a fifth of the Soviet army, over a hundred thousand Soviet soldiers died! Just because the Red Army was made to look ridiculous does not mean this was a minor conflict.

And slightly off topic, but 'liberation' and 'incorporation'? Are you for real?
Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania weren't 'incorporated' they were damn well annexed. Over twenty thousand Lithuanians died fighting Soviet occupation, Estonia was blockaded and almost 100,000 Soviet troops occupied their land, almost 300,000 Latvians were deported, executed or drafter during Soviet occupation. How you can call this anything other then annexation is beyond me.

As for the 'liberation' of Poland, is that what you call making a secret alliance with Nazi Germany to carve up Eastern Europe? This 'liberation' was a direct betrayal of the Treaty of Riga and the Soviet-Polish non-aggression pact and was morally reprehensible. The lands 'liberated' were not occupied Russian lands as you seem to believe, they were 40% Polish and about 25% Russian. These were lands that had been held by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth far before Russian Rule. There was no liberation, this was an invasion.

Technically, Red Army and Wehrmacht in 1941 had pretty much the same power. Germans had more experience and superior strategic and tactical skills, as we can see from WW2 events before 1941. All war preparations, including absolutely necessary enforced industrialization, allowed us to keep up with much more technically advanced, already industrialized enemy.

All we can see from WWII events before WWII is that the Red Army was hamstrung whilst the Wehrmacht was most definitely not. Industrialisation is neither here nor there.

 

[luiz]

The Purges aside, I doubt any Russian leader would have created a significantly better "experience" for the time period that Stalin presided over.

The fact that he is responsible for the deaths of 10 to 20 million people is not something to put aside.

 

[luiz]

Modern medicine itself is not enough. See modern African countries for example.

Believe it or not, life expectancy in several modern african countries is actually much higher than it was in 1900.

It was his stupidity. He knew what policies had his country at war time, and if he didn't understand why they were required - it was nothing more than stupidity.

Yeah, I am sure a british or american soldier sending a private letter making mild jokes about Churchil or FDR would have been tortured and sent to labor camps...

They were not required, what sort of sicko are you? If you see nothing wrong with those rules, you are nothing but a slave that deserves to be ruled by Stalin.

 

[red_elk]

What's you point? Stalin didn't execute all his senior commanders and just turtured and imprisoned a few? Moreover, when he realised that perhaps offing his officers was not such a good idea (maybe it was the millions of Germans inside Russia that gave it away) he decided to reinstate a few?

Thus the true face of tactical genius is revealed.

My point is that you should write truth, not what you have actually written. "execute all" and "imprisoned a few" - is this the same? What it was, a little exaggeration?

I don't know, I imagine the Army would be a good place to start. That's how they usually do it. I'll repeat that their was not a lack of combat experience in the Red Army as a whole. Only in the senior echelons. Almost 80% of Rifle commanders had good combat experience, and the USSR had been very active militarily since its birth. Where to find them was the easy part, the problem was that Stalin valued loyalty so far above any other trifling attributed like competence or experience that having actually fought in a war wasn't really considered. Unfortunately, it's the senior officers who control and organize the army. If their incompetent, the army is incompetent.

Ok then. I was saying that Red Army would be short of officers in any case. Purges just worsened the situation to some level.

Moreover, it's simply ridiculous to claim that the Invasion of Finland was a conflict to small to significantly affect the levels of Soviet military experience. The USSR invaded with one million men.

I said, the conflict was small comparing to Great Patriotic War.

And slightly off topic, but 'liberation' and 'incorporation'? Are you for real?
Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania weren't 'incorporated' they were damn well annexed. Over twenty thousand Lithuanians died fighting Soviet occupation, Estonia was blockaded and almost 100,000 Soviet troops occupied their land, almost 300,000 Latvians were deported, executed or drafter during Soviet occupation. How you can call this anything other then annexation is beyond me.

Baltic states joined USSR in 1940 without any resistance.

As for the 'liberation' of Poland, is that what you call making a secret alliance with Nazi Germany to carve up Eastern Europe? This 'liberation' was a direct betrayal of the Treaty of Riga and the Soviet-Polish non-aggression pact and was morally reprehensible. The lands 'liberated' were not occupied Russian lands as you seem to believe, they were 40% Polish and about 25% Russian. These were lands that had been held by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth far before Russian Rule. There was no liberation, this was an invasion.

Territories of Western Ukraine and Belorussia to the east of Curzon line were occupied by Poland, after their aggression in 1920. In 1939, after Germany attacked Poland, USSR had two choices - leave those territories to Hitler, or return them. Soviet leaders decided to take territories (pretty much the same that were occupied by Poland) back, when it's become clear that Polish army and Poland as a state did not existed. It was done without somewhat serious resistance, with several incidents when Soviet forces were fighting with "allied" Germans. Many local people, ethnic Belorussians, Ukrainians and Russians saw Red army as liberators. These are the facts, the words about annexation or liberation - interpretations.

All we can see from WWII events before WWII is that the ed Army was hamstrung whilst the Wehrmacht was most definitely not. Industrialisation is neither here nor there.

And as we can see from WW2 events after 1941, Red Army was not as weak as it seemed to be. Industrialization is there.

 

[red_elk]

Believe it or not, life expectancy in several modern african countries is actually much higher than it was in 1900.

It was one of the Soviet achievements - bringing quality of life from medieval standards, close to civilized world. Significant part of job was done in 1930-1940.

Yeah, I am sure a british or american soldier sending a private letter making mild jokes about Churchil or FDR would have been tortured and sent to labor camps...

They were not required, what sort of sicko are you? If you see nothing wrong with those rules, you are nothing but a slave that deserves to be ruled by Stalin.

That's a good point - to compare Britain and USA with USSR. They were in the same situation - attacked by army of 4.5 million people.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

The fact that he is responsible for the deaths of 10 to 20 million people is not something to put aside.

It is when discussing things other than those deaths. I never said "forget about them," I said "apart from them," meaning, without taking those into account.

 

[Yeekim]

Depends on polkovnik. What is connection to this topic?

I was just reading about assassination of Markelov and made a small mental connection....

 

[red_elk]

I was just reading about assassination of Markelov and made a small mental connection....

I understood you were talking about Markelov. It's always dangerous to screw with influential people, I heard even one American president was killed because of this. Sad story, though.

 

[Dachs]

It's always dangerous to screw with influential people, I heard even one American president was killed because of this.

Eh wot?

 

[luiz]

That's a good point - to compare Britain and USA with USSR. They were in the same situation - attacked by army of 4.5 million people.

Sure, when you're attacked by 4.5 million people, what you have to do is send soldiers to labor camps because they made an innocent joke on their private letters. That's how wars are won.

I am sure everything Stalin did was entirely justifiable given the context. You're about to be invaded? Purge the army! Some nationalities are complaining? Force them all to march to Siberia!

He was a great man if you think about it.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Eh wot?

Harding's wife was clearly a force unto herself.

 

[red_elk]

Eh wot?

Looks like those guy created a trouble to some influencial person, and was killed

 

[red_elk]

Sure, when you're attacked by 4.5 million people, what you have to do is send soldiers to labor camps because they made an innocent joke on their private letters. That's how wars are won. I am sure everything Stalin did was entirely justifiable given the context.

1. The word "pahan" addressed to Stalin was not an innocent joke. If you want to start fighting against regime - do it at the peace time, otherwise you may get into the trouble.
2. If people like Vlassov were purged, it would be only better for us.
3. If I said that every action of Stalin were justified, he was angel with wings - you could start disproving this. If not, don't put your words into my mouth.

Some nationalities are complaining? Force them all to march to Siberia!

If their complaining expressed in the form of armed uprising or collaboration with Nazis, yes.

 

[Dachs]

Harding's wife was clearly a force unto herself.

Technically, it's not proven that she even murdered him.

Looks like those guy created a trouble to some influencial person, and was killed

Which president though?

 

[Masada]

Baltic states joined USSR in 1940 without any resistance.

Whut? whose talking in absolutes now?

Question: Are you in the habit of reading old prints of Pravda?

 

[Roller123]

Whut? whose talking in absolutes now?

Question: Are you in the habit of reading old prints of Pravda?

I dont care who conquered whom, but your link reads

In 1944 the Nazi authorities had created..

So the ProNazi "independent" resistance came from the future to 1940 to resist Soviet "occupation". Now who is reading stuff here.

 

[Masada]

1944 the Nazi authorities had created an ill-equipped but 20,000-strong "Lithuanian Territorial Defense Force" under General Povilas Plechavičius to combat Soviet partisans led by Antanas Sniečkus. The Germans, however, quickly came to see this force as a nationalist threat to their occupation regime. The senior staff were arrested on May 15, 1944, with General Plechavičius being deported to the concentration camp in Salaspils, Latvia. However, approximately half of the remaining forces formed guerrilla units and dissolved into the countryside in preparation for partisan operations against the Soviet Army as the Eastern Front approached.[

So wait, the Nazi's created it, then disbanded it, because shock and horror it was full of local nationalists! I mean really they were total Nazi puppets, their strings were so well pulled that they went and turned on the puppet master! I mean they were such good Nazi puppets that they fought till 1956 in Lithuania, 1957 in Latvia and 1978 in Estonia. Sure they were like the bestest bestest Nazi Superhuman Semi-Slavs in the lil' ol' world. Heck add up the numbers, assuming that 10,000 Lithuanians had been put in a quasi-military unit, explain the other Baltic States.

Or maybe they were fighting the USSR in about the only way they could, before the true horror of the Nazi regime was revealed, the only problem was the poor bastards had thought they had already stared into the abyss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia_in_World_War_II#Soviet_regime_of_terror

During the first year of Soviet occupation (1940-1941) over 8,000 people, including most of the country's leading politicians and military officers, were arrested. About 2,200 of the arrested were executed in Estonia, while most others were moved to prison camps in Russia, from where very few were later able to return alive

mass deportations took place simultaneously in all three Baltic countries; almost 10,000 Estonians were deported in just 4 days[39][40][41]. Forcible conscription into the Red Army began after the German invasion of the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941, but the Estonian conscripts were soon deemed unreliable and assigned to "labour battalions". Of the 33,000 Estonian conscripts, more than 10,000 died in these inhuman conditions due to disease, hunger and cold.[42]

This was before the Nazi's turned up on the scene. That's Estonia alone... does that put it in better context? Can you now understand why folks in the Baltic States might not have seen big ol' Comrade Stalin as a friend?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Baltic_states#Estonia

The Lithuanian underground government, formed in 1940, briefly re-established independent Lithuania in an uprising coinciding with Germany's declaration of war on the Soviet Union, even though key members had been arrested by the Soviets only the day before, most to be later executed after show trials in the Soviet Union.

On 12 January 1949 the Soviet Council of Ministers issued a decree "on the expulsion and deportation" from Baltic states of "all kulaks and their families, the families of bandits and nationalists", and others.[34] More than 200,000 people are estimated to have been deported from the Baltic in 1940-1953. In addition, at least 75,000 were sent to Gulag. 10 percent of the entire adult Baltic population was deported or sent to labor camps.[34]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_SSR

In the following month, rigged parliamentary elections were conducted by local communists loyal to the Soviet Union and all non-communist candidates were disqualified.[19] The election results were fabricated: the Soviet press service released them early, with the result that they had already appeared in print in a London newspaper a full 24 hours before the polls closed.[20][21][22] The result was that all three Baltic states had communist majorities in their parliaments, and in August, despite claims prior to the elections that no such action would be taken,[19] they petitioned the Soviet government to join the Soviet Union. The petitions were granted and Latvia was formally annexed by the Soviet Union.

That was the endgame. Get the picture?

 

[Yeekim]

Whut? whose talking in absolutes now?

The guerrilla warfare did not really kick in until after the war. It took some great PR from the Soviets (deportations, arrests, executions and scorched earth tactics), before people took up arms against them.

Baltic governments surrendered in 1940 and the following annexations were indeed "peaceful" (i.e. no armed resistance on meaningful scale was met). "Peaceful" not to be confused with "willing", "legal", or "without immediately following civilian casualties" here, however.

@Roller; if you had bothered to finish reading that sentence, you would have seen how "proNazi" Pahanavicius really was...
EDIT: Nah, Ninjaed here