[UXP] Legends of Revolutions

@achilleszero
Do what you want with the model ;)

@everyone:

It appears 3.19 is not compatible. I haven't checked it yet, but I've seen other mods reporting 3.19 breaks compatibility, so it's a safe bet 3.19 will not work with Legends of Revolution. Legends will be updated as soon as a 3.19 compatible RevDCM version is released.
 
Heh. 3.19 has put the cat amongst the pigeons, somewhat. It might even become the least downloaded patch because of this :)
 
we can no longer play LoR multiplayer cause gamespy wont allow us to proceed without patching to version 2.19.

maybe one could play solo, but that is not the goal here of us wanting to continue to play our saved 2.17 LoR....
 
we can no longer play LoR multiplayer cause gamespy wont allow us to proceed without patching to version 2.19.

maybe one could play solo, but that is not the goal here of us wanting to continue to play our saved 2.17 LoR....

Sorry, I'll update this as quick as I can. I have to wait until glider and jdog updates RevDCM though.
 
Sorry, I'll update this as quick as I can. I have to wait until glider and jdog updates RevDCM though.

seriously, i cannot thank you guys for the hard work modding this stuff... sorry for the angst that the 3.19 has caused. in no way does this take away from the joy of your mod making! :goodjob:

for me, LoR and some like RoM are so infinitely better than the vanilla version, i would rather play LoR in v. 3.17 anyday. without LoR there is no reason to play CIV. and i have been playing since CIV 1 in the early 90's.

this pint is for you! :cheers:
 
Thanks for your work on the mod, Phungus. It's excellent and I think you're on the right track as far as adding content in a focused way. My two multiplayer groups now play LoR exclusively (with Revolutions turned off), and we find it to be quite stable and, of course, a lot of fun.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned you were considering adding a few more legends units, but wanted to add some non-European ones. This conversation seems to have died down, but I hope you are still considering this, as I think it's a good idea. As it stands, the Legends are a great addition, but particularly on larger maps its possible to go the whole game without seeing one. Adding even a few more would make them seem like a robust addition to the game on the level of those added by Firaxis' expansion packs - warlords, espionage, etc. I think this is what you are aiming for, and in my opinion you're almost there.

With that in mind, I have a few ideas for Legends you might consider:

1) The Polynesian Wayfinders - This unit would represent the outrigger canoes that crossed the Pacific to colonize Polynesia, and in particular the extremely long voyages to Hawaii, Rapa Nui (Easter Island), and New Zealand. For purposes of making the unit specific, one of these voyages in particular could be picked. Outrigger canoes generally would be more appropriate as a UU for a Polynesian civ, but this Legend unit would represent one of these epic voyages specifically. The feats achieved by these expeditions, in my mind, equal or exceed those of any of the other Legends. As always, Wikipedia has good basic info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesian_navigation

Representing them in the game is a different question, of course. Here's one proposal - available with Seafaring, can enter Ocean squares, can carry 2 units, restricted to GPs/Scouts/Explorers/Missionaries like Caravels are, but would also be able to carry settlers (to represent the ability to colonize new islands). The unit therefore couldn't be used to mount a military expedition, but would be a great tool for expansion - as it was in history. There's some risk that giving the builder of the unit ocean-crossing ability early would be game-breaking, but I think the limitation to a single unit mitigates this risk a lot. The unit should be low-strength, vulnerable even to galleys - it's not at all a warship. There's also a risk that the owner of the unit could use it to circumnavigate really early, which seems slightly silly, but is hardly gamebreaking. It also seems like a bad use of such a unique unit - it could be colonizing islands.

2) The Victors of Kalinga - this unit would represent the army of Ashoka that defeated the Kalingan forces in (about) 261 BC. The victory was so overwhelming - and bloody - that it resulted in Ashoka forswearing war for the remainder of his reign. There might be a better name for this unit, or even another unit from the same period that would be more appropriate, but I think that Indian military history is rich enough to deserve a legendary unit.

I would think this would be a powerful melee unit, and there are a number of existing classical/medieval melee legends. Someone who knows more about Indian history than I do might have better suggestions here, but if no one else does, I can do more research.

3) The Treasure Fleet - I think this was mentioned by someone else above, but it's a good idea worth repeating. The unit would represent the fleets of Zheng He, which explored/visited much of the Indian Ocean (and, speculatively, further afield) in the early 1400s. These fleets were huge, some over 300 ships, and were far and away the most powerful naval force of their time.

In the game, the unit should probably become available with optics, and totally outclass Caravels/Carracks. In fact, it proabably would be accurate to make it the most powerful naval unit available until Frigates, though there is not a lot of room here since the strength values of caravels/galleons/privateers/frigates are compressed. Large carrying capacity would seem to make sense also.

(The rest of these are not as fleshed-out, but are probably equally good candidates)

4) Jihad - a Legend representing the Muslim conquests of the 600s-700s AD seems appropriate. This rapid conquest was achieved by a relatively small group and, in geographic scale and continuing importance, matches the achievements of the other legends. The challenge is finding a single, representative unit , and I confess that I don't know enough about this period to have good ideas. Alternatively, a legend representing Saladin's forces opposing the crusaders or the turkish Mamluks might work, though they came a century or more later.

5) The expeditions of Cortes or Pizzaro - these were more military units led by the named conquistadores than one-man outfits better represented by GPs. While they are clearly European, their activities were exclusively new-world, and might be represented well in the game with a super-powerful Explorer unit (can capture cities, high strength, moves quickly, etc.). Particularly on Terra maps, such a unit would be devastating.

6) Columbus or Magellan's expedition - Same as above, technically Euro but acted outside Europe. In the game, a Caravel or Galleon with more movement points (2x?) and, if possible, longer sight range seems right. The owner of this Legend would be very likely to circumnavigate, which is nice. It also helps move the focus away from exclusively military Legends.

7) Gurkhas - mentioned by someone else, and a good idea.

More generally, I think Chinese history in particular has to be a rich source of legendary units, but I confess that I don't know enough about it to propose any.


This thread, in which some military hacks talk about "legends" might also be a good source of ideas: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38650

Hope that's helpful. Let me know what you guys think of these.
 
4) Jihad - a Legend representing the Muslim conquests of the 600s-700s AD seems appropriate. This rapid conquest was achieved by a relatively small group and, in geographic scale and continuing importance, matches the achievements of the other legends. The challenge is finding a single, representative unit , and I confess that I don't know enough about this period to have good ideas. Alternatively, a legend representing Saladin's forces opposing the crusaders or the turkish Mamluks might work, though they came a century or more later.

This is an excellent idea.

What about having this special unit spring up as a result of Islam? As it is, they get 3 missionaries... Maybe even cooler would be the Jihad / Mohammed's Army unit, which in addition to being a powerful unit, has missionary / inquisitor powers. So Islam could spread far and wide on the back of the Jihad, cool!
 
@richarnd
Interesting ideas. Glad to hear the mod works fine in Multiplayer. Eventually jdog plans to rebuild Revolutions, and when that happens the game will be fully Multi supported. He said he planned to have that done sometime in the next couple months. Though things might have changed.

Also a question regarding multiplayer. Are there any balance issues you want to adress? Certain Civs, UUs, Units that seem over/under powered in mutiplayer? This game was balanced around SP (not intentionally, that's just the only viable way I have to test it), and I can certainly fine tune things for MP play if any issues creep up there. The AI just isn't nearly as good at exploiting OP concepts, so if there is some issue with a particular legend unit or Civ that becomes aparent in MP play I'd like to know.

@achilleszero
Given richarnd's ideas, I'm kind of liking the Wayfinders idea for a legend. If you want, feel free to add that unit. Also probably need an Modern/Future era Legend as well. And then we could move SAS to being a UU instead of a Legend.

@Meatbomb
While an interesting idea, it deviates too far from Civ4. There are already enough rules changes in LoR, I'm not going to be adding any more. The closest thing to a rules change I will be adding are some promotions I will steall use from the HotTK mod. Aparently there are some interesting and unique promos in that mod which will help flush out the Legend Units.
 
:yup:
1) The Polynesian Wayfinders - This unit would represent the outrigger canoes that crossed the Pacific to colonize Polynesia, and in particular the extremely long voyages to Hawaii, Rapa Nui (Easter Island), and New Zealand. For purposes of making the unit specific, one of these voyages in particular could be picked. Outrigger canoes generally would be more appropriate as a UU for a Polynesian civ, but this Legend unit would represent one of these epic voyages specifically. The feats achieved by these expeditions, in my mind, equal or exceed those of any of the other Legends. As always, Wikipedia has good basic info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesian_navigation

Representing them in the game is a different question, of course. Here's one proposal - available with Seafaring, can enter Ocean squares, can carry 2 units, restricted to GPs/Scouts/Explorers/Missionaries like Caravels are, but would also be able to carry settlers (to represent the ability to colonize new islands). The unit therefore couldn't be used to mount a military expedition, but would be a great tool for expansion - as it was in history. There's some risk that giving the builder of the unit ocean-crossing ability early would be game-breaking, but I think the limitation to a single unit mitigates this risk a lot. The unit should be low-strength, vulnerable even to galleys - it's not at all a warship. There's also a risk that the owner of the unit could use it to circumnavigate really early, which seems slightly silly, but is hardly gamebreaking. It also seems like a bad use of such a unique unit - it could be colonizing islands.
:scan::yup:

I missed the Civ III approach, whereby if you sacrifieced enough galleys you might discover and settle new lands, but I understand that it was a numbers game/human exploit. It was exciting, at least.

I've been in a number of discussions since. How do you represent the achievements of the :viking: and polynesians without being game-breaking?

But with the Revolutions aspect, your settlements ( should they survive barbs )will most likely become allies rather than part of a world encompassing empire. Not unlike isolated New World & Pacific island settlements historically. As a Legend, it becomes something like the Magellan's voyage wonder, a once per game achievement. As a galley of sorts it would be vulnerable to barbs, so there is still a high level of risk and excitement. I'm not sure about where to put it in terms of techs/timing. Seafearing and Compass?

It may need tweaked after some playtesting, but I think it could add both gamepaly and realism, a win-win.:banana:
 
I think the wayfinder unit is a really creative unit. I'm just worried about game balance a bit. If it is available early, I could see (a human player) easily getting a dozen extra cities while other civilisations could only watch. Of course the strength of these new cities would be limited due to trading limitations, it's still a lot of cities that you can get through building a single legendary unit. Especially on maps with extra islands (non-pangea), it could be hugely powerful.

Of course the revolution component limits the effectiveness of these cities when the component is used in the game. Without the revolution component, the cities will certainly be useful.

For balance, I would advice against enabling the unit long before the carrack unique unit and probably give it a low movement rate without access to the navigation promotions.

Another idea for a legendary unit: A unit to represent the enormous expansion of the Mongols under Genghis Kahn. Maybe a knight unique unit with bonuses vs pikemen (as the horsebowmen could shoot at a distance) and good retreat odds and other bonuses to make the unit strong. However, I don't know of a single named unit of legend among the Mongol expansion which is the idea of the Legend unit.

Alternatively, you could go for Attila (the Hun) as a representative of the invasion of the Huns which was one of the elements of the end of the Roman empire. Attila himself is a legendary figure.
 
Given richarnd's ideas, I'm kind of liking the Wayfinders idea for a legend. If you want, feel free to add that unit. Also probably need an Modern/Future era Legend as well. And then we could move SAS to being a UU instead of a Legend.

If your looking for similar legend to fill the SAS spot, maybe Merrill's Marauders, or someone mentioned a armored one I think, Desert Rats was it?

I think the wayfinder unit is a really creative unit. I'm just worried about game balance a bit. If it is available early, I could see (a human player) easily getting a dozen extra cities while other civilisations could only watch. Of course the strength of these new cities would be limited due to trading limitations, it's still a lot of cities that you can get through building a single legendary unit. Especially on maps with extra islands (non-pangea), it could be hugely powerful.

Of course the revolution component limits the effectiveness of these cities when the component is used in the game. Without the revolution component, the cities will certainly be useful.

For balance, I would advice against enabling the unit long before the carrack unique unit and probably give it a low movement rate without access to the navigation promotions.

Agreed that we need to be careful with this unit. The other legends just provide a slight advantage in your conquering. This onw could change the game. Its not just the extra cities that, as you mentioned those will very likely get ate up by Revolutions, but just making first contact. A lot of times making first contact with the other continents can net you even more of a tech lead. It also lets you tie up resources by having first crack at making the deals.

Another idea for a legendary unit: A unit to represent the enormous expansion of the Mongols under Genghis Kahn. Maybe a knight unique unit with bonuses vs pikemen (as the horsebowmen could shoot at a distance) and good retreat odds and other bonuses to make the unit strong. However, I don't know of a single named unit of legend among the Mongol expansion which is the idea of the Legend unit.

Yeah I already kinda came up with that idea. The Golden horde and the Dogs of War. (Dogs of War were Ghengis' 4 right hand generals that did all his conquering. His succesors feared them so much that they went to great lengths to make sure none of the other khans got ahold of them.) But as phungus mentioned, they are already represented every time you warmonger with the Mongols.
 
Is it possible to make the ship a settler by itself? Like, by targeting the wayfinder at land it'll settle there and be used up? Maybe it could also have a some kind of a "food reserve" so that by X turns it'll simply get destroyed if not used by the player. This way it will be impossible to circumnavigate the world, yet there would be that possibility to make a settlement on another continent. It could grant an extra Worker as well.
 
The unit will function fine as a very early way to explore oceans for the civ that builds it. It'll be 0 :strength: so one barb galley, minor civ ship, or enemy ship will destroy it. It'll have a movement of 2, and it will carry 1. It'll cost 4x what a galley costs, so it'll be like investing in a wonder. Trust me, it'll be balanced. Techs will be sailing and something else, haven't decided yet.
 
I have a pretty good concept of what's balanced and what's not. By being 0 :strength: 2:move: unit available early that can explore ocen, it has it's benifits of course. The thing is you'll need to focus on sailing to get it, and you'll need to pass up other early wonders, or early expansion, or building an early attack stack. This unit will be tempting, but not the "best" strategy by any means, you will be far better off in terms of early expansion just building settlers. But it'll be tempting, which is the way a good Wonder type feature should be.
 
A cargo hold of just one is of course a good way to limit the strength of the unit, but will the AI be able to use it with a cargo hold of just one? Maybe the AI doesn't settle on other islands/continents when it can't send a military unit with the settler. I'm not sure of this but vaguely recall having read something along those lines. It would be a pity if the human could use the unit for expansion and the AI couldn't.

Another thing: as a human player I would avoid ending my turn in coastal waters with this ship in order to avoid barb ships. However, I don't think the AI will do that. This alongside with strategic planning will make the human use this unit a lot better than the AI. Now that's true for many things in the game and thus not necessarily a problem. I just hope that many of the potential AI problems can be avoided so that the AI can also use it decently. For instance, I wouldn't mind if the AI got a larger sight radius with this unit than the human player would so that it could avoid barbarian ships. I have read that the AI already gets a larger detection range than the human player but I just want to be sure that that it is enough for the AI to not needlessly lose the unit.
 
Well, can you make the wayfarer like a settler unit (maybe even with some defensive strength?) that can move on coast/ocean tiles? That way, you'd only be able to get one new city out of it. The Polynesians certainly weren't carting settlers all around the pacific, so a general "transport" unit seems out of place for that; plus many Polynesian expeditions (i.e. Easter Island) became isolated after the initial colonization. Cool idea for a legend though.
 
The Polynesians certainly weren't carting settlers all around the pacific, so a general "transport" unit seems out of place for that; plus many Polynesian expeditions (i.e. Easter Island) became isolated after the initial colonization. Cool idea for a legend though.


I don't understand. How did the polynesians spread across the Pacific and contact the american continent? Are you saying that the polynesians conquered all of these islands, rather than settled them ? Or are you saying that they arrived from Asia via land bridge when the sea level was lower much like Austalia/New Guinea was populated?

I certainly agree that many islands were isolated for long periods.
 
If you really want to know, read Thor Heyerdal's books Kon-Tiki and Ra :)
 
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