v10 feedback

[The_Coyote]

1) The two cruiser units already have unique graphics at the moment, so there's no urgent need. Of course, due to the ability to change graphics with promotions, the graphic could still be used for a cruiser unit with extra movement points.
2) It would be kinda lame to ask you to create a no shader version if I'm not even sure yet if I wanted to use the model (due to not being able to see it - circular problem ).
3) How come it has so many polygons? For a ship at least. The stealth destroyer has a mere 150 polygons for instance, the missile cruiser some 400.

1) it´s not really a cruiser, it´s more a costal patrol craft (even if a helicopter could land on the ship in front of the gun - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEWbRqf4MOo&feature=related ) [i only wanted to post the video link - was a bit chocked to see how big this tiny looking ship really is]

2) i thought nifscope could - nevertheless without in game test it´s really a bit of a circular problem - therefore attached a non shader version (also added the damage texture to the shader version)

3) i´m not a pro - to be honest, i created this model as part of a tutorial (so no real model optimations - was a side product) - and i also have the tendency to model parts which are important for me but in the modeling process but are barely visible in game (eg here the holes in the back are for real and not painted) - sometimes i do this because of my lacking painting skills - sometimes because i´m still under 1000 and i want it that way - compared to the stealth destroyer also the masts and radar parts cost alot, without there is already a drop by 300 (nifs also included)

(use it if you want it and / or need it - i only dislike the idea that somebody don´t use my model because he need a small fix / change and not asked me to do this)

 

[The_J]

3) i´m not a pro

Are you kidding?

 

[Maniac]

The nice thing about Blitz is that it can be visualised in a lot of way, some rough ideas (only the first suggestion is tied to moletronics, the rest is generic):

Another idea to add to the list: some reactor/battery upgrade. Basically you just have more energy/ammunition to shoot at the enemy.

Huh - the camouflage texture was... not that good, but the ship itself is actually quite nice.

Yeah, that's why I said I can't really appreciate the quality of a model if the texture is not that good - I need to see the wireframe then.
I can agree now the model looks good. And as you say, it could be used for several things, so I'm not sure how to use it yet.

2) i thought nifscope could

I don't know how to see the polygon count or the wireframe of a model in NifSkope.

(nifs also included)

Thanks. Now there's a model for with and without the deep radar special ability.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I don't know how to see the polygon count or the wireframe of a model in NifSkope.

Click on the model itself, and the wireframe will show up (at least for the part you clicked on). Showing the polycount is a bit more fiddly - when you clicked on the model, expand the tree views until you get to the TriShapeData (or TriStripsData) and click on that - then in the data display on the bottom, there is somewhere in the list an entry for "triangles", then repeat the process for all TriShapeData-nodes you can find in the model (several models have more than one) and add them up.

It's a lot more fiddly than Nifviewer, but Nifskope is a bit more robust (it even shows models that would crash Civ4) and versatile (as it allows more editing of the nodes) - but it doesn't require the "BoundShape.nif"-files.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I completed my game with patch j) with a Diplomatic victory and I had a lot of fun with this.

The starting positions were very close and two AIs (Miriam and Yang) got destroyed soon and Zhakarov almost (after I declared an ultra early war on him because he settled a critical position). Frequent tech trading allowed the relations to improve again and he became my vassal peacefully later. I followed a combo of EB and pro-planet strategy early on (which became impossible from the midgame on - after Contained Ecosystems Greenhouses allow too high populations), which put me a good feet with Deidre. She decided to declare war on Morgan and I joined here. But Morgan was so strong in this game that she got vassalized and I had to sign peace - and there was never much hope to catch him, so I decided to try to improve relations again by adopting FM and trading with him (which took long, but worked in the end - I was even able to trade techs with him again). Lal used my weakness and I had trouble to hold my line in a first war. The second war was a hard stalemate for along time (the AI was quite effective in mounting and repelling oversea invasions, also Lal was a generation ahead in tech) until I amassed enough troops to invade a midsized island of him and get a beachhead (see picture - my key to success was heavy use of automated units to avoid WW, consequent preperation of the troops by using all experience boosters in the training process and choosing the right promotions - that way you can overcome even Mobile Infantery and all that bunkers with older stuff) - this made him capitulate and after Deidre became strong enough again to break free a diplomatic decision was finally positive.

In the later game the AIs started to expand even a bit oversea (but still no sea bases!)

Some observations:

- I noticed that the unit cost progression is low compared to the increase BTS has. I had a production powerhouse with Skunkworks and a Military Academy and every military unit including the most expensive I reached (Locusts at 120 hammers) was built in a turn. That kind of kills the need for specilaization. Not sure if a change would be for the good only (could give Terraformers a too big edge over Hybrid followers), though.

- The Marine Detachment special is a very powerful tool (especially in the hand of the human player), because it suceeds always (was only 30% in SMAX) and works perfectly together with softening the enemy first with bunkers - also the AI has a tendency to send single ships or spread them out.

- The FC took an interesting path - the increase came nearly to hold in the midgame (though native life was a big issue for everyone over the entire game), but at some point it started to rise again. I tried to fuel this by trading the Pholus Mutagen to Deidre -because my enemies were even more in the "planetry reds"- but it seems to that the heavy wars in the second half of the game had more impact - it is hard to fight at two fronts and so fungus and native life got the space to expand and somewhere beyond a FC of 40 it seems to gets its own dynamic.

 

[Maniac]

I completed my game with patch j) with a Diplomatic victory and I had a lot of fun with this.

Thanks for your story! I'll also use that screenshot in future patch releases.

- I noticed that the unit cost progression is low compared to the increase BTS has. I had a production powerhouse with Skunkworks and a Military Academy and every military unit including the most expensive I reached (Locusts at 120 hammers) was built in a turn. That kind of kills the need for specilaization. Not sure if a change would be for the good only (could give Terraformers a too big edge over Hybrid followers), though.

I haven't really given that much thought to the mineral cost of a whole lot of things, so improvements are definitely possible. Some possible counterconsiderations though:
1) in vanilla civ I usually also end up with a city that can build any unit in a single turn. If it's only one city, I don't see the problem.
2) While the cost of endgame units is lower than vanilla, there are also than production multiplying buildings. Partially compensated by boreholes of course.
3) Just yesterday I noticed the Multiple Production modcomp. I'll definitely include that in Planetfall.

- The Marine Detachment special is a very powerful tool (especially in the hand of the human player), because it suceeds always (was only 30% in SMAX) and works perfectly together with softening the enemy first with bunkers - also the AI has a tendency to send single ships or spread them out.

I'm not a fan of random chance. Umm... perhaps the capture chance could depend on the XP of the defeated enemy unit? 0 XP = 100% capture chance: 10 XP = 0% capture chance?

By the way, if you want to observe AI behaviour, an interesting way is to give yourself an AI teammate. To ensure I still have some decent opposition, I also create an AI-only team of two players.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I'm not a fan of random chance. Umm... perhaps the capture chance could depend on the XP of the defeated enemy unit? 0 XP = 100% capture chance: 10 XP = 0% capture chance?

I feel this would be a bit overly complex - and plus the effect of XP is already factored in the fact that you defeated the ship, after all! I only see a problem with the softening up beforehand, because that sounds a bit like possible "ship-farming", if done cleverly. I'd say a neat mechanism would be a capture chance equal the initial health of the to-be-captured ship. This way, softening it up before becomes an interesting decision - it's easier to win, but you decrease the odds of getting a goodie out of it. It's also interesting, because it rewards risk (something that's not very common in Civ, sometimes) and encourages decision. It also balances itself a bit: If you have higher odds getting ships, you also have a higher chance losing them, if you go for a low risk for yourself, you'll get less but also lose less.

If this doesn't work, you could also make it dependant on the health of the marine detachment ship - this would, however, increase the value of ranged fire to stop attackers from taking your ships... and is opposite of what we want, I guess.

EDIT: Unless, however, it is the health of the attacking ship *after* combat - in this case it might be interesting, because promotions, first strikes (for the spartans), the healing in enemy terrain and so forth might become way more important. On the other hand, that makes the random chance way less controllable - I don't mind random a lot, as long as I have a modicum of control... this one is probably too far out there.

The flavour behind it might be a bit contrived, but I think you can visualise it like this: Marine detachments require you to get physical access to the ship without getting shot down before. So you have to provide cover fire/suppression fire to get close to the ship - or you even need to take out their guns - if the ship is already damaged, it's more likely that existing structural damage is exacerbated and sinks the ship. On a pristine ship, you have it's more likely that you can provide cover fire without having this fire ripping the target apart before.

By the way, if you want to observe AI behaviour, an interesting way is to give yourself an AI teammate. To ensure I still have some decent opposition, I also create an AI-only team of two players.

By the way, Better AI has the AIAutoplay component - have you integrated that as well? It looks like a nice function to see how the AI develops.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I haven't really given that much thought to the mineral cost of a whole lot of things, so improvements are definitely possible. Some possible counterconsiderations though:
1) in vanilla civ I usually also end up with a city that can build any unit in a single turn. If it's only one city, I don't see the problem.
2) While the cost of endgame units is lower than vanilla, there are also than production multiplying buildings. Partially compensated by boreholes of course.
3) Just yesterday I noticed the Multiple Production modcomp. I'll definitely include that in Planetfall.

1) It was only one city being so extreme, but it is probably much more common under a Terraforming Strategy (my game was a transition one with all time EB, as described in the Hybrid thread)
2) You mean *less* production multipliers? Yeah, thats true...also my example was a special case because of a wonder and the MA (the latter is prone to produce similar situations in BTS). However, both drones/citizien with Gene Factory and boreholes can lead to much higher base production.
3) Interesting mod. It offers at least a fix for the (not really, but in terms of hammers) "wasted" production in indutrial powerhouse cities.

BTW, planes strike out to me as being very cheap...30 hammers for a unit comming that late? Ok, their strength value is limited, but softening units (see below) is a strong tactic and one without risk (if no interception capabilites are available on the other side) 30 hammers would be ok (though still cheap) for a one-shot cruise missile, but for a plane you can use more then one time?

I'm not a fan of random chance. Umm... perhaps the capture chance could depend on the XP of the defeated enemy unit? 0 XP = 100% capture chance: 10 XP = 0% capture chance?

I'd say a neat mechanism would be a capture chance equal the initial health of the to-be-captured ship. This way, softening it up before becomes an interesting decision - it's easier to win, but you decrease the odds of getting a goodie out of it. It's also interesting, because it rewards risk (something that's not very common in Civ, sometimes) and encourages decision. It also balances itself a bit: If you have higher odds getting ships, you also have a higher chance losing them, if you go for a low risk for yourself, you'll get less but also lose less.
(...)
The flavour behind it might be a bit contrived, but I think you can visualise it like this: Marine detachments require you to get physical access to the ship without getting shot down before. So you have to provide cover fire/suppression fire to get close to the ship - or you even need to take out their guns - if the ship is already damaged, it's more likely that existing structural damage is exacerbated and sinks the ship. On a pristine ship, you have it's more likely that you can provide cover fire without having this fire ripping the target apart before.

I also don't think a flat 30% or any other pure random chance is a really good solution, but what Lord Tirian describes and suggests strikes me as an elegant solution. He worked out my main complaint - the farming of ships and his solution targets especially this. It is still a random chance, but one strongly weighted. Also, in terms of flavour and imagination it makes sense - there is always the danger that the other ship gets further damaged in the process of boarding.

The experience method also has the problem that I can't see the experience of other units and only using the targets experience feels a bit artificial. If at all, I would subtract targets EXP from the EXP of the boarding vessel and use the resulting number...but the biggest problem I see with this is that it don't really stop ship farming - it is just limited to the either unexperiened enemy ships (which are not so uncommon in the AI fleets) or my own experienced navy (makes it more difficult in the beginning, but once you get it rolling, there would be no difference)

 

[Maniac]

I'd say a neat mechanism would be a capture chance equal the initial health of the to-be-captured ship. This way, softening it up before becomes an interesting decision - it's easier to win, but you decrease the odds of getting a goodie out of it. It's also interesting, because it rewards risk (something that's not very common in Civ, sometimes) and encourages decision.

Hmm, I disagree. By taking into account the hammer cost of your unit and the enemy unit, it becomes possible to precisely calculate what is most economically beneficial: weakening the target or not. Rather than adding an interesting decision, it just adds extra math. I'd like to avoid that.

Another possible idea: capturing a ship removes the marine detachment special ability. Perhaps you could get it back by picking a promotion. That is: when picking the marine detachment special ability, you also get a marine detachment promotion. That promotion is removed after capturing a ship, but can be picked back like any other promotion, and giving you the ability to capture one extra ship.

Of course 'one ship = a couple XP' may still be too lucrative... Perhaps the Marine Detachment special ability (or promotion) could also give a combat penalty of -20% or so. That wouldn't make much difference in your home territory if you have plenty of bunkers nearby. But in enemy territory or the high seas, it would encourage a more varied navy and combined arms: you'd need a strong ship to protect the weaker marine detachment-ships, and you'd encouraged to use cruiser or air unit strikes to weaken your target (which the enemy could counter with AAA or their own ranged strike units).

Another serious option is just removing the Marine Detachment special ability. You can argue it takes away from the uniqueness of an IoD farming strategy.

By the way, Better AI has the AIAutoplay component - have you integrated that as well? It looks like a nice function to see how the AI develops.

I added that long ago, but only the SDK part. You need to open the python console and type 'game.aiplay #', where # is the the number of turns you want autoplayed.

BTW, planes strike out to me as being very cheap...30 hammers for a unit comming that late? Ok, their strength value is limited, but softening units (see below) is a strong tactic and one without risk (if no interception capabilites are available on the other side) 30 hammers would be ok (though still cheap) for a one-shot cruise missile, but for a plane you can use more then one time?

What hammer cost do you suggest?

 

[Lord Tirian]

Another possible idea: capturing a ship removes the marine detachment special ability. Perhaps you could get it back by picking a promotion. That is: when picking the marine detachment special ability, you also get a marine detachment promotion. That promotion is removed after capturing a ship, but can be picked back like any other promotion, and giving you the ability to capture one extra ship.

I'm... really torn on this. One the one hand, it's a sound concept - most promotions add strength to an unit, this promotion sort of "splits off" the original unit and manifests in the form of additional units. On the other hand, I distinctively dislike the feel it gives (not the mechanics, I think they could work), because of two reasons: 1) It sort of robs you of the feel that promotions are better trained units, 2) Diminishing returns: the more often the unit is useful to you, the less useful it will be (because the XP costs for extra ships would always go up and up).

Another serious option is just removing the Marine Detachment special ability. You can argue it takes away from the uniqueness of an IoD farming strategy.

- I think it's a fun ability - might it might have to go rather having it half-working or unbalanced.

But the main two problems seem to be: AI-farming and too high returns, and by fixing the latter, you might arguably fix the former to a certain extend. The flat random chance isn't too bad. I know you don't like random, but in the long run, it basically says "you get a third of destroyed cruisers", the problem is just the "short run", where statistics are less reliable.

So, what if you don't tie the control mechanism to random chance or the originating unit? Make something like "you can have a number of captured ships equal to the number of X you have", a hard and fast limit. This can be rather easily tuned and isn't too bad, I think.

You could base it on the number of naval yards you have - the flavour explanation would be something like that even capturing a ship doesn't mean you have a full crew to run it - so the naval yards would represent the number of "spare crews" you have.

Then you could even turn the captured state into a promotion that you can remove with sufficient XP, representing that the crew is now a full crew and you've got another spare crew back - now this also encourages actively using the captured ship instead of waiting for more ships to come to you (because then you hit your limit and that's it).

In any case, something that might help as well is making ships with marine detachments impossible to capture to avoid a snowball effect (also allows you to pick a defensive option against it).

Cheers, LT.

 

[Maniac]

But the main two problems seem to be: AI-farming and too high returns, and by fixing the latter, you might arguably fix the former to a certain extend. The flat random chance isn't too bad. I know you don't like random, but in the long run, it basically says "you get a third of destroyed cruisers", the problem is just the "short run", where statistics are less reliable.

That's true. It's mainly random chance in game altering events I don't like. For instance losing a hero in combat in Fall from Heaven, or not getting a Great Person you really need for your shrine. I'll implement the random chance idea.

 

[Pfeffersack]

What hammer cost do you suggest?

Difficult. I would say 50 or 60, but that might make them to expensive compared to the better air units. 40 wouldn't be too much, I'm sure.

 

[Maniac]

done&é"'(§è

 

[Pfeffersack]

I don't want all high movement units to have inherent blitz, but I do like the idea of a special ability. I don't have any inspiration though. What name would you give to the special ability with this effect? What tech would enable it? What unit combat types could pick it?

I would like to have the ability mainly for all high speed units (= all types of ships, Choppers, Hovertanks and Rovers, all native units and the treaded ones). However, it should be perhaps restricted to a 2nd attack - otherwise it will be too powerful (there could be still "Blitz II" for a third one) and - inspired by Moo2's autofire - the 2nd attack could come with a 10% penalty, the third with -20% combat strength.

For native units it could be called "Agil", "Starved", "Restless" or just "(Ultra-)Agressive"; if "Raging Barbarians" is enabled, the wild native units could start with it...