v11 feedback

[Lord Tirian]

Indeed, delaying the Consciousness further would be badly. It already sticks out of all the religions as latest too much. Usually VoP is the first, followed by Edenism/Homo Superior (seems nearly half/half which gets discovered frist in my games), then a bit later Algaculture, much later Consciousness. All other religions became dominating in one or the other game, not so the Consciousness.

If one would go towards fixing instead of removing, I think it needs to be a little more unique and some spread boosting to compete with the four big ones. Apart from the idea that cyborgs spread it, I think it would be very fitting to have some ties to other informatics buildings. For example, network nodes could increase the spread potential. Or add some sort of "temple"-building that works better if the CyCon is in the city, something like a Cybernetics Lab that works better (like giving out +1 Happiness or so) with the religion.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Maniac]

Given that one of the functions of religions is to form diplomatic bonds between civs, religions is one case where less is definitely more. Five religions with only 7 to 10 civs is way too much.

 

[GeoModder]

Aki can be a University leader, as Pfeffersack says.
The Consciousness could be some secret project.
I'd prefer to have them as a faction, but I can't imagine a way to make another faction starting that late interesting or make it have an impact on the game compared to the other factions. And in this particular case I prefer realism over gameplay. That is, no Consciousness in MY 2101 before the required technology hasn't been developed yet.

If you prefer them as a faction, how about a take-over from within the University?
As it is now, the University seems most of the times ahead of the other factions. What if there was this danger of becoming engulfed by the University's own advanced AI's if certain security arrangements weren't met?
See it as a reset of the faction: treaties with other factions are broken, the direction/style the faction was heading to (terraforming, hybrid,...) might become obselete because the faction benefits change. Stuff like that.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Oops, missed that post the first time...

A problem with removing the Consciousness is the gamefont, which would need to be adapted. Lord Tirian, would you be willing to copy the Ascetic Virtues/Buddhism icon over the Consciousness icon?

Sure, no biggie. I'll post it later.

For the hostile take-over... I have to say I can't see getting rid of Zak entirely in the middle of the game except through war. Would be weird to see a leader completely replaced in the middle of the game - especially as the leaders have a strong personality and are a part of the SMAC experience - and hence a pretty integral part of Planetfall as well. Seeing them disposed randomly sounds like it would cheapen the stories behind them.

However, I could see it as a faction you can create voluntarily after the discovery of Cybernetics. Build the Consciousness - and the base becomes its own faction (and you can choose to take over that new faction, if you wish to), similar to the way Basium comes into the game in FfH2. Only problems: Teaching the AI not to build it in its capital but rather in a border or faraway city and the implementation behind it (which sounds like a rather big thing to code).

Cheers, LT.

 

[Maniac]

Would be weird to see a leader completely replaced in the middle of the game - especially as the leaders have a strong personality

And especially if you're the one playing the University.

A Basium implementation indeed is the most workable. However Basium has a special mechanic which makes them fun and viable to play even in the mid- and endgame. What could that be for the Consciousness? I can think of many things for the Cult (which could also work with Basium beginnings), but not really for the Consciousness.

 

[GeoModder]

I don't know this Basium civ in FfH2, nor the special mechanics which supposedly makes them fun to play. But what a faction like the Consciousness seems to need if it is a midgame upstart, is an ability to convert bases to its faction if those bases met the conditions.

 

[Maniac]

For the record, Basium has a chance to get angel units for free in its capital when other civs' units which follow a certain religion die in battle. So you get a nice army without immediately needing the bases and economy to build one the hard way.

The problem with giving bases of existing factions to a new faction, is find some way that doesn't feel unfair or random if the human player suddenly is on the receiving end of the base 'theft'. I don't think that's really possible.

 

[GeoModder]

For the record, Basium has a chance to get angel units for free in its capital when other civs' units which follow a certain religion die in battle. So you get a nice army without immediately needing the bases and economy to build one the hard way.

The problem with giving bases of existing factions to a new faction, is find some way that doesn't feel unfair or random if the human player suddenly is on the receiving end of the base 'theft'. I don't think that's really possible.

Consciousness conversion could perhaps be avoided by building a Covert Ops Center?
And of course cyborg units are a prime candidate for a similar mechanism as Basium has in Planetfall.
Hey, you could even make enemy clones join the Consciousness when defeated in battle! Those clones have the same genetic make-up, and the moment they have a technical special ability they're supposed to have MMI implants, so should be susceptible to conversion. And a Consciousness probe team could do the same in peace time.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Attached the edited gamefonts - used the latest gamefonts I made for you as a base.

Consciousness conversion could perhaps be avoided by building a Covert Ops Center?

Still not a fan of that - base stealing really sounds like un-fun - plus CivIV already has a mechanic for that - culture flips. But having massive influence to trigger flips doesn't sound fitting for CyCon to me.

And a Consciousness probe team could do the same in peace time.

This would tread a bit on the Data Angels' shtick, no?

I think a bit part of CyCon could be the idea of "downloading" (a bit akin to BSG skinjobs ), though not full fledged personality transfer (wrong tech level). Meaning defeated units should get some "bonus", this would also help with the problem a new civ has - military weakness (that's why Basium's angel-spawning makes him work).

For example, each defeated unit could add a bit to the CyCon's beakers (they gather knowledge from seeing things in action... a bit borg-like adaption) and perhaps extra GG XP (same idea). Also, the special ability limit of 2 could be increased for them to 3 - after all, everybody there is tech him/herself, increasing their versatility with extra elements.

The "get tech on base conquering" is also helping with that. These bonuses could at least get their science economy jump started and make their units a bit more resilient.

Unit-wise, make their base spawn units at a controlled rate, for example for every pop increase they get, the base spawns a drone or cyborg. Since in Planetfall, you cannot really decrease a base's population (no starving, no whipping), you can't abuse that easily (well, you could get your base conquered over and over again, but that's silly and stupid as it will hurt you more than do you good).

Give mechanic units an unique promo (akin to hive and spartans) that increases their heal rate - everybody is a techie there!

What would be nice would be seeing some effects that effects upon single cities "bleed through" to all their other cities, showing the effective link between them, for example faster religion spread, automatic sharing of great people effects between close cities etc. - but this reads like it's difficult to balance and code.

(mind you, some of these ideas here were originally for the university - so not everything may be 100% fitting)

Cheers, LT.

 

[Hector Alvares]

Great MOD !!!
You even copied the strange behavior when you play in easiest modes, that in general you don´t need to build any army... ... there are enough PODs around...
I miss only two things:
The Transcendes Victory .... In SMAC I love to play this fraction.
And that you design you own units ...I thing it not possible with CIV IV.

BTW: I play it in German, and there are often strange Names for the Leader PK.
Is it a Bug, or is this mod only playable in english ?

Greeting
H. Alvarez

 

[slugwalk]

Would it be possible to have the Consciousness faction arise from existing bases of the other factions. Like how new civs form in Rhyse and Fall? Perhaps though, it shouldn't have to wait until as late as Cybernetics is researched now. If I remember right, Aki-Zeta was supposed to have been the result of a program from the Unity taking over a human mind. That is, no cybernetics were required. Then again, that shouldn't happen much, so perhaps it should wait for cybernetics, but maybe cybernetics should come earlier.
The cybernetics take over should only happen in factions with cybernetics. To make up for that, cybernetics should be made into very useful tech.
Well, just some ideas, I'd like to see the Cybernetic Consciousness as a faction though.

Oops! I missed the next page of threads.
I see that people are already against bases flipping, so nevermind.

 

[Lord Tirian]

BTW: I play it in German, and there are often strange Names for the Leader PK.
Is it a Bug, or is this mod only playable in english ?

So far, it only fully works in English. You could always help out with a translation into German...

Another thing I just noticed (in my Yang game... but it's still in patch b/c): Planetbusters still require Iridium, but that's pretty hard to get (as only the crater provides iridium), I don't think that's really intended.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Maniac]

Attached the edited gamefonts - used the latest gamefonts I made for you as a base.

Thanks!
Consciousness deleted.

Techsteal on base conquering, converting mechanic units, etc sound good way to counter their initial military weakness. I wouldn't want to the CyCon to have to start all-out wars to gain any of their benefits though. Might also be annoying for the CyCon "summoner" to be dragged into wars.

I figured 'something' could give the Consciousness settled great people in their HQ, turning it into a superbase. Don't know what that something could be though. It could be from any defeated InVitro/Cyborg/Walker unit. That way they wouldn't necessarily need to go to war themselves, but it would still make them more succesful the more chaos and warfare there is in the world. Not sure that's desired.

What makes Basium's angel spawning even better, is that it is something you can affect by improving the might of the civs that follow the religions that give you Angels. If something can be found, I'd prefer whatever gives CyCon settled great people, also be something you can try to influence.

automatic sharing of great people effects between close cities etc

That's what the Personality Transcription tech should eventually do.

Another thing I just noticed (in my Yang game... but it's still in patch b/c): Planetbusters still require Iridium, but that's pretty hard to get (as only the crater provides iridium), I don't think that's really intended.

Woops. Changed it to Helium-3.

 

[GeoModder]

I figured 'something' could give the Consciousness settled great people in their HQ, turning it into a superbase. Don't know what that something could be though. It could be from any defeated InVitro/Cyborg/Walker unit. That way they wouldn't necessarily need to go to war themselves, but it would still make them more succesful the more chaos and warfare there is in the world. Not sure that's desired.

In the CyCon's introduction story, a corps comes to life again, merged with a forgotten AI from the Unity. Perhaps you could do something similar? If somewhere on Planet a base decreases in population, a Great Person (AI) is discovered/activated in a CyCon base. You could even make it so that CyCon benefits link largely to their Great Persons. Letting this rely on base populations instead of units gives the benefit that it won't happen too much. But every base conquered, or razed, in whatever conflict between factions or native life, adds to the CyCon's factional strength...

 

[Lord Tirian]

Consciousness deleted.

Out of context, that's a slightly creepy sentence!

What makes Basium's angel spawning even better, is that it is something you can affect by improving the might of the civs that follow the religions that give you Angels. If something can be found, I'd prefer whatever gives CyCon settled great people, also be something you can try to influence.

What about hijacking the cooperation system - and the Consciousness starts out with the cooperation HQ in their mega city. This way, the Consciousness could actively spread it, akin to religions (and depending on the benefits, the factions might want to spread it themselves) - and there would be an immediate gain, plus the energy maintenance cost sounds fitting for it! And cooperations don't touch the diplomatic system, so you wouldn't get religion troubles due to it. On the other hand implementing the entire subsystem just for a single faction sounds a bit like "too much".

Other things that are possible:
Making it trigger on tech research (though that's probably too frequent to give out a regular great person), then the influence could manifest in giving out techs - give tech, get toy!
It could also trigger on anarchy, i.e. whenever a social engineering change happens, some people, some ideas, some things fall through the cracks - and the Consciousness picks them up (this idea, however, would work with almost the same reasoning for the Data Angels and the Drones) - and you can influence this by espionage and diplomacy.

Cheers, LT.

 

[GeoModder]

What about hijacking the cooperation system - and the Consciousness starts out with the cooperation HQ in their mega city. This way, the Consciousness could actively spread it, akin to religions (and depending on the benefits, the factions might want to spread it themselves) - and there would be an immediate gain, plus the energy maintenance cost sounds fitting for it! And cooperations don't touch the diplomatic system, so you wouldn't get religion troubles due to it. On the other hand implementing the entire subsystem just for a single faction sounds a bit like "too much".

Not a bad idea. And for your objection on activating the system for a single faction, perhaps another "corporation" could emulate part of the Progenitor resonance benefits once the aliens are in.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I figured 'something' could give the Consciousness settled great people in their HQ, turning it into a superbase. Don't know what that something could be though. It could be from any defeated InVitro/Cyborg/Walker unit. That way they wouldn't necessarily need to go to war themselves, but it would still make them more succesful the more chaos and warfare there is in the world. Not sure that's desired.

A ratio of 1:1 (each defated cybrog unit = one settled Great Specialist) would be probably too much...but we could use a geometrical increase like for Great People. So they get one for the 1st,3rd,6th,10t,15th,21th,... defeated worldwide.

What makes Basium's angel spawning even better, is that it is something you can affect by improving the might of the civs that follow the religions that give you Angels. If something can be found, I'd prefer whatever gives CyCon settled great people, also be something you can try to influence.

Maybe they should have a kind of corporation, which provides knowlegde to build cheaper cyborg units...but for each cyborg unit build in a city with that corporation on the world, the counter mentioned above gets +1?

I found it hard to get away from the cyborg units...there are few other links to this topic in Planetfall... espionage? Is the realm of the Angels. Alien Artifacts? Rather something for the progenitors? Maybe some techs or buidlings (didn't SMAC have some kind of Roboter factory or do I mix that up with Moo2?)
Speaking of Moo2...there were those android workers (farmers, workers and scientists)...they did not need food, but production points and weren't effected by racial boni, but by other improvements...maybe that could be something for Planetfall? What if all the "people" of Aki Zeta would comsume 2 minerals, 1mineral/1energy or 1food/1mineral instead of the two usual food? That would be a pretty unique mechanism not used in Planetfall so far. Such Androids would not become unhappy or unhealthy, but would not produce GPP as well.

 

[Maniac]

In the CyCon's introduction story, a corps comes to life again, merged with a forgotten AI from the Unity.

I know, but I don't really like that story. It would mean the Consciousness are a bunch of walking zombies. :-s
I could see dying people choosing to have their personality transferred to the Consciousness. Of course they'd need to have cybernetic implants already present for this to be possible; hence why defeated Cyborgs and not for example defeated Helions would give a benefit to the Consciousness.
Anyway, I'd prefer it to be possible to grow through peaceful means, so...:

What about hijacking the corporation system - and the Consciousness starts out with the corporation HQ in their mega city.

I do like that, however:
One of things neat about Basium is that you come in the world not with a "okay, what should I do now..." feeling, but rather have a clear purpose: beat the crap out of the Ashen Veil! This is possible because religions have already spread by the time Basium gets summoned. Similarly I'd like the Consciousness to have some naturally evolved friends and enemies already present (through their corporation already being present in some bases) by the time they are formed, so they don't have start from scratch, but rather have an existing slate to work further on.

The question then becomes how to have that corporation (named the Network Backbone?) already spread in some places without their being a corporation HQ and 'executives' yet. Perhaps it could be given by a building. But then I fear for the AI: they wouldn't get that sometimes it is best not to build the building which spreads that corporation in their base.

A ratio of 1:1 (each defated cybrog unit = one settled Great Specialist) would be probably too much...but we could use a geometrical increase like for Great People. So they get one for the 1st,3rd,6th,10t,15th,21th,... defeated worldwide.

I'd just make it a percentual chance.

Speaking of Moo2...there were those android workers (farmers, workers and scientists)...they did not need food, but production points and weren't effected by racial boni, but by other improvements...maybe that could be something for Planetfall? What if all the "people" of Aki Zeta would comsume 2 minerals, 1mineral/1energy or 1food/1mineral instead of the two usual food? That would be a pretty unique mechanism not used in Planetfall so far. Such Androids would not become unhappy or unhealthy, but would not produce GPP as well.

Robotic workers make sense given Chiron's conditions, but that would be like a rewrite of civ's basic economic system and AI. Not really feasible. If I could redesign SMAC's economy from scratch, I'd make all workers (that is, the stuff that works plots and improvements) robots built by minerals, and all the actual human population specialists. But the Civ4 AI wouldn't get this.

 

[GeoModder]

I know, but I don't really like that story. It would mean the Consciousness are a bunch of walking zombies. :-s
I could see dying people choosing to have their personality transferred to the Consciousness. Of course they'd need to have cybernetic implants already present for this to be possible; hence why defeated Cyborgs and not for example defeated Helions would give a benefit to the Consciousness.
Anyway, I'd prefer it to be possible to grow through peaceful means, so...:

"Taking the form" of a deceased human is not the same as taking over a corpse.
I've seen it as a lack of imagination on part of the CyCon AI's, and that they have a 'code' of only making a clone of a deceased person anywhere which they had access to by means of implants. Also, I didn't mean that only deceased people from a war between the CyCons and another faction would give a new Great Person, but any distracted population point wherever on Planet, by whatever faction it happens. So the CyCon faction doesn't necessarily needs to have a connection with the event where the population dies. For all I care it could be a succesful native attack on a Morganite base.

 

[slugwalk]

The logical problem I see with making defeated cyborg units affect the Consciousness is that I have trouble imagining there being anything viable left after the units are defeated. Especially with even more powerful weapons than we have today, there isn't going to be much left of a cyborg after you stop it. I mean the whole point of cyborgs would be that putting a bullet through it won't kill it: you have to destroy the mind controlling it (a wounded cyborg can keep fighting).