v11 feedback

[Pfeffersack]

When entering the tech page of the datalinks with 11c, I often get this python exception:

 

[Maniac]

I'm not getting that error.
It's strange that you say you get it often instead of always. This looks to me like an error which you should, given the right conditions, always get. If you can pinpoint what these conditions are, I can have another look. But until then there's nothing I can do.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I had a bit of time to play a bit more and now I'm wondering: What are people's experiences with the Carrier promotion? Lately, I tend to pick it very often, because even with only one or two interceptors loaded, carrier subs are very powerful - even more so with deep pressure hull or stealth - they are pretty expensive (as you need to build aircraft to load them) - but then, you can use non-coastal cities to build them, so it's easier and a bit more effective than building more ships in my experience (plus they can go on interception missions and they're very versatile), which makes me think that the carrier promo might be a bit too good...perhaps it needs to carry a strength or movement penalty or so?

Also, a random idea: Will we get some special missiles later? I think normal missiles are sort of part of the ranged special abilities, but I do miss the tactical nukes - and AFAIK, thermobaric missiles are planned? Will it be possible to load these on ships as well? (then the Carrier promo could become something like "launch tubes").

Cheers, LT.

 

[Maniac]

I added a little bit of code now, so that carriers will become visible for a turn if one of the air units in their cargo does an air strike.

I could also reduce the extra cargo the spec ab gives, if the spec ab remains too powerful.

Great idea to rename the spec ab to Launch Tubes!

Thermobaric Missile will be loadable on ships.

In what situations would you use Tactical Nukes? I ask because I have never used those units before. In fact I have also only used ICBMs in one game before. And that was because it was a game of the month, and using ICBMs speeded up my last conquest to be victorious. The downsides of using nukes have never seemed to me worth the benefits.

 

[GeoModder]

Great idea to rename the spec ab to Launch Tubes!

Instead of Launch "Tubes", I recommend Launch Pods.
It's a bit hard to imagine a deployable aircraft in a tube, but a pod is more generic for that kind of purpose.

And on TacNukes, IIRC they only affect the plot where they detonate. So if it is on top of a city you have decreased strength on defending units, with of course loss of population/facilities, but the adjacent plots don't have fallout damage.

 

[Maniac]

Then how tactical nukes they differ from guided missiles?

I don't find it hard to imagine an aircraft being mass-driver launched from a tube. But Perhaps it could be called Launch Rails instead? References to railguns. Railguns, coilguns, mass drivers - it's more or less the same thing. Would also work better for surface cruiser carriers, who don't need closable tubes like submarines do.

 

[GeoModder]

Then how tactical nukes they differ from guided missiles?

From the amount of damage they inflict perhaps?

I don't find it hard to imagine an aircraft being mass-driver launched from a tube. But Perhaps it could be called Launch Rails instead? References to railguns. Railguns, coilguns, mass drivers - it's more or less the same thing. Would also work better for surface cruiser carriers, who don't need closable tubes like submarines do.

Your call, I would say.
But on "closable tubes", on today's missile carrying surface ships I've never seen an open launcher box except when the missile is about to be launched.
Perhaps you meant sealed tubes? That's a more appropriate term in English for a isolated structure.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I'm not getting that error.
It's strange that you say you get it often instead of always. This looks to me like an error which you should, given the right conditions, always get. If you can pinpoint what these conditions are, I can have another look. But until then there's nothing I can do.

The error seems to occur only (and as far as I can tell always), if I access the Datalinks from the main menu.

---

@ nukes

And on TacNukes, IIRC they only affect the plot where they detonate. So if it is on top of a city you have decreased strength on defending units, with of course loss of population/facilities, but the adjacent plots don't have fallout damage.

Assuming that we talk of the stock rules of BtS - I thought the only difference is the limited range and the lower cost...?

Then how tactical nukes they differ from guided missiles?

A guided missile only targets one unit, a nuke always affects all unit on the target tile (forcing them to survive a "kill check" of 50% probability and doing damage to the surviving units).


My main concern with Nukes in Planetfall are the ecological consequences. There is no "terraform" effect like SMAC Planetbusters had it, instead fallout, which can be easily cleaned up...and eventually some kind of global warming effect - an effect which causes a simple conversion of any terrain type to desert in BtS. I wonder if it just works the same in Planetfall...and if others think as well that this could be improved somewhat?

---

I really wonder, if patch c) (or maybe v0.80 of Better AI) had a positive impact on the AIs understanding of a Green strategy - it is the first game, where I watched AIs with constant high positive Planet Attitude (Deidre around +5, Yang between +2 and +3) Yang has the Pholus Rigde in his territory, but Deidre somehow followed a classic green strategy (less polluting improvements then usual, early "green" buildings).
She and Yang captured also a lot of native life units - just look at their number of units and what they pay for them (ok, Yang runs Police State...but Deidre not...)

The multiple production feature is also a great addition and boosts several elements of Planetfall greatly (anything related to having super-production-powerhouses...Planned Economy, Boreholes, Terraformer Strategies, Military Academies and production boosters).

 

[Lord Tirian]

Instead of Launch "Tubes", I recommend Launch Pods.
It's a bit hard to imagine a deployable aircraft in a tube, but a pod is more generic for that kind of purpose.

Pfff.... you need to watch more BSG! But launch rails or launch coils sound cool as well and as Maniac said, makes them less specific to subs.

And on TacNukes, IIRC they only affect the plot where they detonate. So if it is on top of a city you have decreased strength on defending units, with of course loss of population/facilities, but the adjacent plots don't have fallout damage.

Yep, the full effect of nukes, just on a smaller scale - that makes them more useful for more "surgical" strikes (even on defence, as you can more easily target enemy SoD without too much damage to your own territory - and for some native infestations, I just wish I had that red button again!). Also, they can be put into subs, you don't need to be afraid of losing them when your cities get conquered. An additional reason to use them is that they have a 50% chance of evading SDI interception (of course, there's no SDI in Planetfall). Of course, sans the fallout, this could become the base for the thermobaric missile as well (seeing the possible uses).

Cheers, LT.

 

[GeoModder]

Pfff.... you need to watch more BSG!

I've seen them all except the second half of the last season. Those "tubes" the vipers are launched in are IMHO tunnels or corridors.

 

[Maniac]

The error seems to occur only (and as far as I can tell always), if I access the Datalinks from the main menu.

Are you sure that only started happening under patch c? That it wasn't present under patch a or earlier versions? Because if it was present earlier as well, I think I may know the cause of this (Vista-exclusive) bug. If it's only been present since patch c, I don't have a clue.

My main concern with Nukes in Planetfall are the ecological consequences. There is no "terraform" effect like SMAC Planetbusters had it, instead fallout, which can be easily cleaned up...and eventually some kind of global warming effect - an effect which causes a simple conversion of any terrain type to desert in BtS. I wonder if it just works the same in Planetfall...and if others think as well that this could be improved somewhat?

If I were to change the ecological effects of nukes, I'd let it turn land into polar terrain. That way it has an interesting synergy with Enclosed Biosphere. Imagine Yang running Enclosed Biosphere and throwing nukes all over the place.
Though personally I never use nukes because of the diplomatic consequences. Doesn't everyone get pissed at you for using nukes?

I really wonder, if patch c) (or maybe v0.80 of Better AI) had a positive impact on the AIs understanding of a Green strategy

Yeah, I actually made some changes in the hopes the AI could do a pro-Planet strategy.
I don't announce AI changes because:
1) half the time it turns out they're not working as intended, and I have to make some further changes
2) I can only do limited playtesting
3) if someone independently notices AI improvements, like now, it's a sign it's not just me imagining stuff

I'm very surprised at the effects though.
And also a bit perplexed at some of the numbers. How does Gaia and the Hive manage to get such large populations yet at the same time maintain a positive Planet Attitude?? Did they recently conquer some large bases from other factions? Also the high city maintenance costs of the Hive seem to indicate they're not running the Hybrid civic. So there's still stuff left to do. Ideally I'd like each game to have 2 or 3 factions running a pro-Planet/Hybrid strategy, 2 or 3 running a Terraformer strategy, and at most 1 or 2 running Enclosed Biosphere in the endgame. That way the stage can be set for a Transcendence Victory and epic endgame ecological wars.

Could you please upload a save? I'd like to have a look at the base sizes, terrain improvements, base facilities, unit composition... Gaia and the Hive are using.

***

In the past I usually played either the Believers or the Gaians to test a terraformer or hybrid strategy. While doing some limited playtesting to see if my hybrid AI changes were working, I kinda noticed that for the other factions, only in a minority of the starting positions it's realistically possible to keep your Planet Attitude positive before you get more means to increase it (Biolabs, Empath Guilds). So I was wondering if perhaps I should let the HQ give +1 Planet Value to the base. That may be enough to make the AI more often follow a pro-Planet strategy.

Do other people also have this experience that a pro-Planet strategy rarely is the best choice?

***

Anyone interested in a succesion game after I release the next patch by the way? Could be an interesting way to see what strategies people use.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

In the past I usually played either the Believers or the Gaians to test a terraformer or hybrid strategy. While doing some limited playtesting to see if my hybrid AI changes were working, I kinda noticed that for the other factions, only in a minority of the starting positions it's realistically possible to keep your Planet Attitude positive before you get more means to increase it (Biolabs, Empath Guilds). So I was wondering if perhaps I should let the HQ give +1 Planet Value to the base. That may be enough to make the AI more often follow a pro-Planet strategy.

Do other people also have this experience that a pro-Planet strategy rarely is the best choice?

I always rush for Biolabs so that I can keep a positive PA, even when I plan to run a terraforming strategy later. Having that little bit of a buffer seems (IMO) to be important in the early game, when you can't afford to waste resources fighting off Planet.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Are you sure that only started happening under patch c? That it wasn't present under patch a or earlier versions? Because if it was present earlier as well, I think I may know the cause of this (Vista-exclusive) bug. If it's only been present since patch c, I don't have a clue.

No, I didn't notice this before...I always browse the Datalinks after a new patch before starting the game, so I guess I would have noticed it (IIRC, I had Python exceptions enabled before v11 came out and if you enter the the Datainks from the main menu, you always come to the tech page first...) Nonetheless, a vista issue would be no wonder...perhaps someone else running Planetfall on a Vista OS can enable python exceptions and check it?

If I were to change the ecological effects of nukes, I'd let it turn land into polar terrain. That way it has an interesting synergy with Enclosed Biosphere. Imagine Yang running Enclosed Biosphere and throwing nukes all over the place.

Nuclear winter sounds good, as it is more credible as direct consequence.

Though personally I never use nukes because of the diplomatic consequences. Doesn't everyone get pissed at you for using nukes?

Not necessarily. The victim of course get really mad at you, any friend of him to a lesser degree (BTW, two more things which can be easily and directly modified individually for each leader via leadrhead.xml) - other civs will not care at all.

Yeah, I actually made some changes in the hopes the AI could do a pro-Planet strategy.
I don't announce AI changes because:
1) half the time it turns out they're not working as intended, and I have to make some further changes
2) I can only do limited playtesting
3) if someone independently notices AI improvements, like now, it's a sign it's not just me imagining stuff

I'm very surprised at the effects though.
And also a bit perplexed at some of the numbers. How does Gaia and the Hive manage to get such large populations yet at the same time maintain a positive Planet Attitude?? Did they recently conquer some large bases from other factions? Also the high city maintenance costs of the Hive seem to indicate they're not running the Hybrid civic. So there's still stuff left to do. Ideally I'd like each game to have 2 or 3 factions running a pro-Planet/Hybrid strategy, 2 or 3 running a Terraformer strategy, and at most 1 or 2 running Enclosed Biosphere in the endgame. That way the stage can be set for a Transcendence Victory and epic endgame ecological wars.

Could you please upload a save? I'd like to have a look at the base sizes, terrain improvements, base facilities, unit composition... Gaia and the Hive are using.

I have attached three saves from different stages of the game. Yang might have captured a base recently in the war vs. Santiago (though there was no notification in the log), but Deidre didn't wage any wars. I noticed at least two settled down transcends for here, she has Monolith and Nexus access and of course founded the VoP...she constantly switches between EB and Hybrid

In the past I usually played either the Believers or the Gaians to test a terraformer or hybrid strategy. While doing some limited playtesting to see if my hybrid AI changes were working, I kinda noticed that for the other factions, only in a minority of the starting positions it's realistically possible to keep your Planet Attitude positive before you get more means to increase it (Biolabs, Empath Guilds). So I was wondering if perhaps I should let the HQ give +1 Planet Value to the base. That may be enough to make the AI more often follow a pro-Planet strategy.

Do other people also have this experience that a pro-Planet strategy rarely is the best choice?

At least it need the most concentration to be maintained, because you have to play the game in a (compared to stock rules) counter-intuitive way (e.g. do NOT maxime base growth, spam cities like their is no maintenance, do NOT max out tile output...)

With the late change towards how native life units are supported and the fact that it is now impossible to build them without positive PA I would say there is enough incentive to go for a green startegy...OTOH, my current game is the first, where I suceeded as terraformer with cutting back the fungus and I found multiple production a powerful tool to get up your defense. However, it was again a game with transformation - I started out green and used it as a buffer for along time, like Keeper_GFA explained. I currently undecided, with all that fancy recent changes...

Anyone interested in a succesion game after I release the next patch by the way? Could be an interesting way to see what strategies people use.

Yes, could be interesting if enough people participate.

--------

Edit:

Is it intended that an aquaformer in damaged state on a seafungus tile prevents other aquaformers on that tile from removing fungus? Because that happens in this save - you cannot use the intact formers, unless you self-destruct the damaged one (the tile is one the right egde of the minimap, in the middle)

 

[Lord Tirian]

Hey, I finally got around to finish this - a relatively complete translation into German. It's not perfect (it could need a good proofreading) and I'm away from the my German CDs of SMAC/X, so it's still missing the SMAX blurbs and I translated the base names freely. And I probably missed some bits and bobs and skipped the placeholder entries - but it's complete enough to allow you playing Planetfall without understanding English, I think!

I tried to push it out as fast as possible after the last patch (c) to make it easier for you, Maniac, to merge it in - and if time and motivation permits, I'll try update it after patches.

I almost didn't touch the English bits, the only thing I did was removing the curly braces from some tech quotes and replacing it with the colour highlight - I also noticed that some text keys of some techs/buildings are misspelt, so they're not showing the quote... but I didn't fix it, as it's not in the text files.

Now, I hope, I can go back to do more graphics...

Cheers, LT.

 

[Maniac]

No, I didn't notice this before...I always browse the Datalinks after a new patch before starting the game, so I guess I would have noticed it

In that case I don't have a clue what it is. In any case, I've fixed an issue which has been present for a long time - tell me after the next patch if the problem still persists.

I have attached three saves from different stages of the game. Yang might have captured a base recently in the war vs. Santiago (though there was no notification in the log), but Deidre didn't wage any wars. I noticed at least two settled down transcends for here, she has Monolith and Nexus access and of course founded the VoP...she constantly switches between EB and Hybrid

Thanks. Two things that struck me:
1) They weren't running the Hybrid civic. Will need to mess with the civicvalue AI.
2) The Gaians were still building an alarming amount of greenhouses and farms. Will need to figure out what causes that behaviour.

Is it intended that an aquaformer in damaged state on a seafungus tile prevents other aquaformers on that tile from removing fungus?

Woops. I forbade formers from building improvements on plots with immobile units. I didn't want people replacing bunkers while the bunker unit was still present. I hadn't considered damaged formers are immobile too. I've fixed this for the next patch.

Hey, I finally got around to finish this - a relatively complete translation into German.

Cool. I have put it in the game.

 

[nevill]

Hello again.

Yesterday I finished playing my first Planetfall game. It was quite embarassing, actually. I played as Spartans and lost to my closest neighbour, Morgan, in less than 120 turns. That's something that never happened to me in SMAC, ever.

A few questions, if I may.

1) Am I correct in suggesting that some animations are missing from the game? I'm talking about rovers in particular. Their battles look quite silly now - just staring at each other until one of them blows up.

2) Is early war possible? With units of strenght 3 available early and not that cheap techcosts for Plasma troopers/Dropships I assume that rushes are out of the question. Still, I thought that Santiago would have an upper hand in combat, like free promotions or something. Loosing to Morgan is sooo inappropriate.

3) I have not yet figured a way to hurry production. Why hurrying with money is not enabled by default? I amassed heaps of energy through early exploration and bullied my neighbours for credits, seriously hurting my diplomatic relations, only to discover that there is no way of spending my wealth.

4) I have spotted tens of IoDs in this game but I haven't seen a single Mindworm or a Spore launcher. In another game I'm playing now the native life on land is a frightening sight, I haven't seen such numbers in SMAC until the lategame. What determines the amount of Planetlife on the map?

5) The maintainance bay is supposed to provide 1 free citizen, right? I'm asking because it doesn't.

6) Are the Spore Launchers different from Mindworms? How?

7) In my current game I have a city which has a Spore launcher (within it's radius) sitting on top of the Fungal tower. The Spore launcher doesn't move. What is it waiting for?

8) Is there some parameter that determines how far apart are the starting locations? It's too crowded in my games - even on a huge map the factions are placed very close to each other.

 

[Lord Tirian]

1) Am I correct in suggesting that some animations are missing from the game? I'm talking about rovers in particular. Their battles look quite silly now - just staring at each other until one of them blows up.

Yeah, currently, they are only static models, nobody has made animations for them so far...

3) I have not yet figured a way to hurry production. Why hurrying with money is not enabled by default? I amassed heaps of energy through early exploration and bullied my neighbours for credits, seriously hurting my diplomatic relations, only to discover that there is no way of spending my wealth.

Once you get to Nanites, you can switch civics (that's, AFAIK, a temporary solution) that will allow you hurrying with energy. The hive can whip slavery-style - but that's their special thing.

8) Is there some parameter that determines how far apart are the starting locations? It's too crowded in my games - even on a huge map the factions are placed very close to each other.

That's on purpose to get some early tension - in the game options (custom game), you can select "scattered landing pods" to get the standard civ distances in the game.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

2) Is early war possible? With units of strenght 3 available early and not that cheap techcosts for Plasma troopers/Dropships I assume that rushes are out of the question. Still, I thought that Santiago would have an upper hand in combat, like free promotions or something. Loosing to Morgan is sooo inappropriate.

Spartan units start with the Spartan promotion which gives them bonuses to retreat, healing and bombardment. Early war is possible, but is difficult to get meaningful results. The best early strategy IME is to rush rovers -- some with flanking promotions to weaken enemies and some with combat promotions to finish them.

5) The maintainance bay is supposed to provide 1 free citizen, right? I'm asking because it doesn't.

Yes it does. A citizen is a type of specialist, not a point of population.

6) Are the Spore Launchers different from Mindworms? How?

Spore launchers are artillery type units, meaning they can only damage a unit to 50% when they attack.

7) In my current game I have a city which has a Spore launcher (within it's radius) sitting on top of the Fungal tower. The Spore launcher doesn't move. What is it waiting for?

It's probably trying to protect the tower.

 

[nevill]

Yes it does. A citizen is a type of specialist, not a point of population.

I am well aware of that, and no, it doesn't. Unless I am missing something here. The number of free specialists does not change upon the completition of the building.

P.S. Never mind, it really does. I was just searching in the wrong place.

Now I remember that, when I completed Children's Creches and experienced city growth on the next turn, the food bar wasn't at 25% like it should have been. How does this work?

Spore launchers are artillery type units, meaning they can only damage a unit to 50% when they attack.

So I'm assuming they can't kill a unit (is this true for non-combat units?). Combat in Civ IV is not something I am used to. I've seen SL attack my rovers numerous times but either of them had always withdrawn from combat. Do SL withdraw when they have dealt their share of damage?

9) What do barbarians... er, I mean wildlife... do with the cities they capture? I've seen the population of the invaded cities diminishing over time. Why was that? And what does some percentage on Native Life citizens upon re-capturing the city mean? Can it influence anything?

10) It seems to me that my first battles with wildlife always leave me unscratched. Is that the intent, or am I just incredibly lucky?

 

[Maniac]

2) Is early war possible? With units of strenght 3 available early and not that cheap techcosts for Plasma troopers/Dropships I assume that rushes are out of the question.

What do you need in order to do early rushes that currently isn't in the game?

3) I have not yet figured a way to hurry production. Why hurrying with money is not enabled by default? I amassed heaps of energy through early exploration and bullied my neighbours for credits, seriously hurting my diplomatic relations, only to discover that there is no way of spending my wealth.

Yeah, with hypnotic trance and rovers you can get much more money than you need early on. Still, it will allow you to keep your science slider at 100% far longer than others, so it does lead to an economic advantage.

4) I have spotted tens of IoDs in this game but I haven't seen a single Mindworm or a Spore launcher. In another game I'm playing now the native life on land is a frightening sight, I haven't seen such numbers in SMAC until the lategame. What determines the amount of Planetlife on the map?

Difficulty level and how much unsettled territory there is in the area.

6) Are the Spore Launchers different from Mindworms? How?

In addition to what's been said, they also deal collateral damage. They're catapults, more or less.

7) In my current game I have a city which has a Spore launcher (within it's radius) sitting on top of the Fungal tower. The Spore launcher doesn't move. What is it waiting for?

I assume it's on a spawning spot. Native life will try to garrison spawning spots with one non-fungal tower unit.

9) What do barbarians... er, I mean wildlife... do with the cities they capture?

Build new native life in it at the moment. In future versions they should "eat/infest", that is: draft, the population to size 1.

And what does some percentage on Native Life citizens upon re-capturing the city mean?

I don't understand this sentence.

10) It seems to me that my first battles with wildlife always leave me unscratched. Is that the intent, or am I just incredibly lucky?

Depending on your difficulty level, yeah you can have a couple free kills against native life.