v11 feedback

[Maniac]

Of course, this may be a feature and part of the hard work to catch up with the pro-Planets before they take away your chance.

Yeah, that's kinda what I had in mind. The reason to place the project at Psionics by the way would be because that tech can be reached from a non-Centauri tech path: through Cybernetics. Making it more feasible one could actually get that tech before pro-Planeteers do.

 

[slugwalk]

I like Shakiko's idea of basing Psi potential on a certain number of turns previous, rather than the whole game. I think that would also be better for the Planet Attitude.

On the topic of end-game eco-wars, I think there needs to be more bonuses for maintaining a high Planet Attitude late in the game. Also, I think the Hybrid forests shouldn't result in higher PV than fungus. As is, the point of getting them is just to allow you to get away with more polluting population or improvements. Instead, I think hybrid forests should provide extra resources, perhaps nutrients, but only if you have a positive PV.

Another idea for end-game eco-wars: an espionage type unit that instead of performing espionage, can take over any native life units without a fight (if you have sufficient Psi potential). This way, having fungus/hybrid forests on your borders with polluting factions can be used as weapon against them.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Yeah, that's kinda what I had in mind. The reason to place the project at Psionics by the way would be because that tech can be reached from a non-Centauri tech path: through Cybernetics. Making it more feasible one could actually get that tech before pro-Planeteers do.

I wouldn't mind it coming a bit later for all (either pro- or contra-Planet). In my mind, this secret project would be a bit akin to the original Voice of the Planet secret project - and prepare the endgame for Transcendence (perhaps it could also add a bit boost to the Flowering Counter or accelerate fungus-growths planetwide?). And I think putting it at the shared end of the genetics and planet line would be rather fitting, flavour-wise, too. Plus, it would definitely spice up the endgame, which is less elaborated now.

It's one of the parts I liked about SMAC, the sudden realisation that you're sitting on an "awakening alien god" and now you scramble everything together to avoid getting wiped out by it. So that secret project would, indeed, become (for the non-Hybrids, at least) a last ditch attempt to reconcile with Planet. Of course, in my opinion, transcendence shouldn't be for pro-Planets alone, though it should be a bit easier for them.

The problem is just... I don't think Planetfall has a Transcendence victory yet!

Cheers, LT.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Regarding the endgame...I runned into a very strange situation when I was about to complete my research of Stable Neutronium. I ended the turn and got the research completed pop-up, including the announcement that the first faction to research this tech would get a Leviathan (which showed up in U.N. High Commission). But the strange thing is that a "ghost tech" (because you can't enter the datalinks when rich-clicking on it for more info, you cannot find it manually there and you cannot find it in the tech tree as well) called "Stable Neutronium 2" gets automatically selected as new research (and it appears that I have never research "Stable Neutronium", which has just vanished from the tech tree). Hovering over it advices me to click to change research...when I do this I can choose on of the other techs available or I can go on to research "Stable Neutronium 2" - looking in the tech advisor, the current research tech it is called "1. Stable Neutronium" then, however.

Or is that actually intended as a method to limit the number of Leviathans in the game (assuming that I would get another Leviathan, when researching the tech "again")?
Then it is an interesting concept, but interface-wise it is rather confusing.

Attached a save (just end turn) and a picture showing the ghost tech.

 

[Maniac]

Yeah, Stable Neutronium is a repeatable 'future tech'.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Yeah, Stable Neutronium is a repeatable 'future tech'.

Uh, would it be possible to somehow make that more recognisable? Either by putting all future techs into the same tier or so? Alternatively, a re-name *might* also work (but I don't want to lose the word Eudaimonia) - one could put the rather cryptic "Secrets of..." names there, to make it clear that they're some rather abstract "future techs"? But adding a little helptext or something is probably sufficient, no need to overcomplicate the matter.

Just a minor thing I noticed while I was playing Planetfall a bit on an on-and-off basis:

Some techs seem to be way more useful/powerful than others. Especially Kinematics - having dropships, drop troopers and range I just makes it a tech that gives you a huge boost in terms of military power, more so than others.

Something that's a mix of flavour and gameplay-issue: Hovertanks at Field Modulation is a bit strange, because I'm not sure whether it's right that the planeteers get something so tech-y, plus they get spore launchers at the same tech already. Could it fit a bit better at fusion (that's pretty close to field modulation and still open to the planeteers from it, so it wouldn't cut them off from military equipment), which is a bit empty right now (though the nuclear reactor is a very powerful facility, so I think it might make fusion a bit too good of a tech).

Cheers, LT.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

How about make a separate future tech for future tech. "Secrets of Transcendence" or something.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Free day today, too warm to do something useful, so I was playing a game this time with Yang (a première for me) - not finished yet, I'm in MY 2293 and I'm playing it defensively right now, it's a large map on noble.

Couple of things I noticed:
- (Psych-)Whipping for production is crucial and really gets you somewhere once you have cloning vats! Very powerful, but not unbalanced, IMO. Recycling tanks are a must, of course.
- finally got a good grip on naval life - the change that natives are less likely to enter human lands is very neat - I can keep my improvements up with a reasonable former group (3 subs + 2 aquaformers) per city - but the large map seems to help with the naval incursions a bit - but then, I'm not the top eco-damager (with Yang, food is better than high production).
- Maybe its specific to the game, but I think the AI neglects the tech path to Biofuel a bit - but that's probably because the two naturally suited factions for beelining it are Miri (with her less than reliable science output) and Yang (i.e. me). On the other hand, Kinematics is really very powerful - even the AI seems to beeline for it frequently.
- Connected to this: If the AI lags behind in the tech tree, it really lags. Especially Santiago (and to a similar extent Miri) seems to suffer from that - between warmongering and being Santiago, science isn't her forté - not the first time I've seen that from them. They probably need to get more espionage somehow so they can start stealing techs instead (which I've never seen from the AI).
- In reverse: Zak is, again, pretty powerful - top in this game, but in general, he often ends up in the upper half of the scoreboard, in my experience. The AI seems to be quite good in using the leverage of a tech lead to expand quickly. His military isn't that good, but I'm worried a bit about that, because once we get more secret projects, I'm afraid that he might hog them (the projects, the techs will probably be given out once the wonders are built! ).
- I feel a bit miffed about destroyers and cruisers... I often wonder why I should build them when I can instead build a sub with the extra special ability (which gets invested into the anti-native abilities). I guess their niche is warfare against human opponents (but on noble, the AI isn't too keen on naval attacks and prefers land stacks).
- Has anybody a better idea for McDonalds? I cringe at that every time!
- Overall feel: Nice. The Better AI has really mixed things up competition-wise and nice to see sea bases popping up occasionally (though only once the land is filled up). I think the gameplay holds up better during the later techs than before.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Maniac]

- Maybe its specific to the game, but I think the AI neglects the tech path to Biofuel a bit - but that's probably because the two naturally suited factions for beelining it are Miri (with her less than reliable science output) and Yang (i.e. me). On the other hand, Kinematics is really very powerful - even the AI seems to beeline for it frequently.

The tech picking AI is really ********. You just don't notice it in vanilla because the tech tree is so narrow. Eventually I'll probably add some tweaks where it's really necessary.

I intend to spread the current Kinematics goodies over more techs in the future. Add a new Doctrine: Air Power tech for instance.

- Connected to this: If the AI lags behind in the tech tree, it really lags. Especially Santiago (and to a similar extent Miri) seems to suffer from that - between warmongering and being Santiago, science isn't her forté - not the first time I've seen that from them. They probably need to get more espionage somehow so they can start stealing techs instead (which I've never seen from the AI).

I can't say I myself has recognized this as a trend so far. In my latest game they were by far the most powerful faction. And Pfeffersack IIRC also said recently the Hive and Spartans were usually the most powerful in his games, due to their more isolated starting positions.

- I feel a bit miffed about destroyers and cruisers... I guess their niche is warfare against human opponents

Yep.

- Has anybody a better idea for McDonalds? I cringe at that every time!

I have long been thinking about calling it The Pet Project. Cloning cats and dogs for sale. But as that's equally tongue-in-cheek, I guess you might not like it either.

 

[GeoModder]

- Has anybody a better idea for McDonalds? I cringe at that every time!

You're not the only one. If it really has to be a tongue-in-cheek, perhaps a more non-descript 'The Farm' or 'The Ranch' would be better.

 

[Pfeffersack]

- (Psych-)Whipping for production is crucial and really gets you somewhere once you have cloning vats! Very powerful, but not unbalanced, IMO. Recycling tanks are a must, of course.

Yes, absolutely. Pop rushing is considered as strong tactic in BTS and in Planetfall there is only one faction, which can use it. That does not necessarily make it unfair (as long as the others have a very unique or powerful boost as well), but IMO it is among the stronger "specials" - because it so flexible. It helps you with any economic strategy, planet or terraform.

- Connected to this: If the AI lags behind in the tech tree, it really lags. Especially Santiago (and to a similar extent Miri) seems to suffer from that - between warmongering and being Santiago, science isn't her forté - not the first time I've seen that from them. They probably need to get more espionage somehow so they can start stealing techs instead (which I've never seen from the AI).

- In reverse: Zak is, again, pretty powerful - top in this game, but in general, he often ends up in the upper half of the scoreboard, in my experience. The AI seems to be quite good in using the leverage of a tech lead to expand quickly. His military isn't that good, but I'm worried a bit about that, because once we get more secret projects, I'm afraid that he might hog them (the projects, the techs will probably be given out once the wonders are built! ).

I'm overall quite satisfied with how the different factions rank in my games. SMAC had much worse patterns of always the same factions being top and down. So I'm quite confident that we will iron out the last problems here:

Yang/Santiago: As Maniac said, my impression is that they tend to prosper in my games despite not being the tech leaders. Isolated start is one thing, though difficulty might affect this as well (they have a high leaning towards unit-building...and maybe their big armies are easier to support on Emperor?)
Morgan: The most unpredictable leader in my games - one time a powerhouse, next turn gets vassalized/conquered and ist last or second-last.
University: Usually middle or above the scoreboard, seldom 1st - but terribly dangerous. He has beat me in the current game with a Subspace Generator victory!
His strength is the amount of tech trading he is willing to do - once you have started trading with him, relations climb steadily. It works for him with other AIs as well. Maybe the planned correction of the relation bonus will help to reduce it a bit.
Looking at his Governor's office, I notice that it reduces ESP points, but also helps to find enemy spies...? Maybe the drone penalty from SMAC could help to slow him a bit.
Lal Usually middle or below. Not as strong as Zhak in tech trading, but usually excellent diplomatic standing. He might suffer a bit from the reduced impact of Great People in Planetfall, where he has his second strength (only certain types easily available in the beginning, no techs from hackers, few secret projects)
Miriam,Deidre The seem to fail most often in my games. Miriam is often diplomatically isolated (maybe she is at disadvantage with her "fitting" religion compared to Deidre...comes later, she has no research boost and constant trouble with the planet), though she manages to expand at least - so she has many bases, but with out-dated military. For Deidre I think it is just that lack of using here strength - the friendship to the planet; e.g. she must learn to expand a lot more aggressive, place bases closer...

- Has anybody a better idea for McDonalds? I cringe at that every time!

You're not the only one. If it really has to be a tongue-in-cheek, perhaps a more non-descript 'The Farm' or 'The Ranch' would be better.

Add me to the list


-----------------------


Another question regarding late game techs...what does that "evolve into fungal tower" from Transcendence do you good?

 

[Lord Tirian]

they have a high leaning towards unit-building...and maybe their big armies are easier to support on Emperor?)

By the way, I was mainly talking about Santiago and Miri - I was playing Yang myself, hence no comment on him (when I see him as AI, he tends to be a production powerhouse throwing units around and making demands like... well, a crazy dictator!). I guess that Santiago suffers from me playing on Noble, as the AI will take less advantage of the extra expansion room without the handicap bonuses.

Miriam,Deidre The seem to fail most often in my games. Miriam is often diplomatically isolated (maybe she is at disadvantage with her "fitting" religion compared to Deidre...comes later, she has no research boost and constant trouble with the planet), though she manages to expand at least - so she has many bases, but with out-dated military. For Deidre I think it is just that lack of using here strength - the friendship to the planet; e.g. she must learn to expand a lot more aggressive, place bases closer...

Miri tends to lag behind, tech-wise (see above), Deirdre - AI doesn't understand Hybrid, that's it. I keep seeing planet-damaging improvements in her territory, sometimes a lot, meaning she's not having synergy with her inherent bonuses. I guess once the AI grasps Hybrid better, that should remedy itself (as a human, Gaians can be pretty powerful, in my experience).

Cheers, LT.

 

[slugwalk]

What I've seen of AI rankings:
In my last two long games, Zack and Lal have been above average or on top. Mainly I think because in both games they've become friends early (due to tech trading and democracy I assume) and have lead everyone in techs until I've outpaced them.
Santiago and Yang did well in my first game because they had their own continents, despite their backwards technology. In my current game, Zack and Lal are doing even better, Miriam and Yang (who didn't get his own continent) are in the middle, and Santiago's on the bottom. I was impressed when Santiago beat Deidre to VoP and ran Hybrid (badly). Even more surprising was when Deidre switched to being a Terraformer (shouldn't she be prevented from making that choice?).
In both games I've made a point of making friends with Lal and Zack, and due to the parallel nature of the tech tree, trading techs with them has been the key to winning. I think my strategy now may be to just do what ever it takes to make friends with as many factions as possible and then tech trade my way to victory (I haven't played enough games to see if this strategy will always work). Is this perhaps a reason why CIV4 has a more narrow tech tree?

 

[Lord Tirian]

Add me to the list

Just for the record: I don't really mind tongue-in-cheek references, it's just that this one is, for my taste, too blatant. I would find it more funny/clever if you'd put something into the datalinks text like: "After the re-creation of terran animals through genetic engineering and cloning, an intrepid group of ex-Morgan geneticists took charge of the project and soon, the first interstellar McDonalds branch was opened."

Cheers, LT.

 

[slugwalk]

I just had my game (version 11a) freeze with some sort of graphical error, then just starting the mod would make a graphical error occur. Before this, I already played a whole game on version 11 (with and without patch a) without anything happening. Here's the save when it happened. Although it doesn't happen immediately, its hasn't taken more than a turn to occur.
View attachment Morgan.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Maniac]

I just had my game (version 11a) freeze with some sort of graphical error, then just starting the mod would make a graphical error occur. Before this, I already played a whole game on version 11 (with and without patch a) without anything happening. Here's the save when it happened. Although it doesn't happen immediately, its hasn't taken more than a turn to occur.

I don't get any problem with that save. Nothing else I can do given the limited information you gave. Is the problem still occuring? Is it only with Planetfall?

Cybernetics: I feel Cybernetics between Neural Grafting and MMI is a bit strange

The reason for that placement, is that the further up the tech tree CyCon would be enabled, the more useless it would be. But I feel even now it's already pretty useless. Plus even with 10 human factions present later in development, four religions seems enough to me. So I was thinking I should remove the Consciousness religion. What do you think?

 

[Lord Tirian]

The reason for that placement, is that the further up the tech tree CyCon would be enabled, the more useless it would be. But I feel even now it's already pretty useless. Plus even with 10 human factions present later in development, four religions seems enough to me. So I was thinking I should remove the Consciousness religion. What do you think?

No problems with that here, never felt any real impact from it anyway, nobody would adopt it that late - and the bonus it gave wasn't really interesting (for example the extra planet-value, GPP, influence, food are all things you can't get easily... getting extra beakers is most of the time a twiddling with the tech slider away).

Theme-wise, also fine in my opinion: I feel the other religions work better as religion. And self-improvement with tech is pretty similar to Homo Superior-theme already (or at least how I see HS). And a religion/ethos/mindset/doctrine/whatever centred around "let's plug tech into us!" doesn't sound very compelling, I can get a way better feel for the other relis.

I do wonder, though, what would then happen to the tech (and the associated unit) and Aki? Getting back a full-fledged civ (as rogue AI split off later in the game) or even some sort of cooperation or just dropped? Because I have to admit I would miss the CyCon and Aki a bit if they would be dropped completely.

Cheers, LT.

 

[slugwalk]

I don't get any problem with that save. Nothing else I can do given the limited information you gave. Is the problem still occuring? Is it only with Planetfall?

I've played the save and haven't been getting any problems now, so I'll stop worrying about it. Must have been an unlikely event, probably specific to my computer.

 

[Pfeffersack]

The reason for that placement, is that the further up the tech tree CyCon would be enabled, the more useless it would be. But I feel even now it's already pretty useless. Plus even with 10 human factions present later in development, four religions seems enough to me. So I was thinking I should remove the Consciousness religion. What do you think?

Indeed, delaying the Consciousness further would be badly. It already sticks out of all the religions as latest too much. Usually VoP is the first, followed by Edenism/Homo Superior (seems nearly half/half which gets discovered frist in my games), then a bit later Algaculture, much later Consciousness. All other religions became dominating in one or the other game, not so the Consciousness.

However, that does mean that I would feel good with getting rid of it. I would prefer to belance it somehow (more missionaries for the founder, higher spread chance, something connected to cyborg units - e.g. the Consciousness can spontaneously spread in a city, if there is a Cyborg unit present, say with 1/500 or 1/1000 per turn).

No problems with that here, never felt any real impact from it anyway, nobody would adopt it that late - and the bonus it gave wasn't really interesting (for example the extra planet-value, GPP, influence, food are all things you can't get easily... getting extra beakers is most of the time a twiddling with the tech slider away).

Don't forget the ESP point. It is true that Beakers and ESP are less useful that late, but that could be easily corrected by e.g. doubling the bonus. Especially extra ESP can make a difference.

I do wonder, though, what would then happen to the tech (and the associated unit) and Aki? Getting back a full-fledged civ (as rogue AI split off later in the game) or even some sort of cooperation or just dropped? Because I have to admit I would miss the CyCon and Aki a bit if they would be dropped completely.

IIRC, Aki is planned a 2nd University leader. Maybe her "special" could be starting (or exclusively developing it later) with The Consciousness religion. So this religion would only show up, if she is in the game and she would be always the founder of it.

 

[Maniac]

A problem with removing the Consciousness is the gamefont, which would need to be adapted. Lord Tirian, would you be willing to copy the Ascetic Virtues/Buddhism icon over the Consciousness icon?

No problems with that here, never felt any real impact from it anyway, nobody would adopt it that late - and the bonus it gave wasn't really interesting (for example the extra planet-value, GPP, influence, food are all things you can't get easily... getting extra beakers is most of the time a twiddling with the tech slider away).

Aki can be a University leader, as Pfeffersack says.
The Consciousness could be some secret project.
I'd prefer to have them as a faction, but I can't imagine a way to make another faction starting that late interesting or make it have an impact on the game compared to the other factions. And in this particular case I prefer realism over gameplay. That is, no Consciousness in MY 2101 before the required technology hasn't been developed yet.