V29 Plans

[ls612]

This thread is for the team to discuss what we intend to do for V29. I'm hoping that multi-maps development and Georealism stuff can start coming this cycle, and will do stuff to assist the former (and the latter if primem0ver asks for it).

Here is my big list of stuff to do.

• Multi-Maps stuff (to facilitate actual development of them).
• Add more units and promotions.
• Look at GPP spreads and balancing.
• Design some techs for the Galactic Era.
• Other stuff that catches my fancy.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

Has the Nomadic Start project been scrapped? I haven't heard anything about it since, like, v13

 

[Thunderbrd]

The Nomadic Start project has most definitely not been scrapped... its just waiting for some other tasks to clear the agenda first.

My primary objective here is to finish everything I have to do with traits. I have been working out a project that crosses between traits and the combat mod and will enable further development on the latter. It is working out quite successfully but there's just a lot of grunt work to do to complete the project so it may be a bit before my next update. At that time, I may also have a workup for a 'modmod' trait structure and perhaps a number of new tags for traits based on playtyping's tag concepts. He did those in Python and I'd like to convert them to a dll/xml tag based application. I may want to do those for the traits workup.

Once that is all complete, which should easily be by the end of this release but perhaps not much before then, I'll try to get to helping DH with some of his dll modmerge requests.

IF we get some more progress done on the multi-maps front enough for me to begin working on mission designs to define the unit abilities to move between maps, I'll interrupt anything I'm currently focused on to get right on that - but it will really take some help on the ai side. Koshling may need to improve the unit movement ai structure to prepare us for the point where we can really work on multi-maps for the AI. And we definitely still need to work up how to generate the maps themselves. (NOT my specialty at all!)

 

[Hydromancerx]

As always these are more of goals than promises. If I can do any of them this cycle then it will be an accomplishment.

- Plan/Balance Units with ls612
- Convert/Make more Animal graphics.
- Make/Balance Property stuff (ex. Crime, Disease, Pests)
- Add more Buildings from my TODO list.
- Add Franchisees
- Add more types of Culture Wonders
- Add more Holidays
- Work on Alt-Timeline (Atompunk, Biopunk and/or Cyberpunk)
- Work on Trans-Human and Galactic Era Stuff (depends upon the multi-maps)

 

[ls612]

One other big thing I forgot in the OP, I'm going to finish my Trait proposals and then as per SO's request implement them with changes suggested by others while Thunderbrd and slick work on a Modmod for traits.

I'll PM you Thunderbrd about some of the Trait leveling mechanics.

 

[Raven Destroyer]

sounds like many things to look forward to

 

[strategyonly]

One other big thing I forgot in the OP, I'm going to finish my Trait proposals and then as per SO's request implement them with changes suggested by others while Thunderbrd and slick work on a Modmod for traits.

I'll PM you Thunderbrd about some of the Trait leveling mechanics.

I suggested a modmod, nothing else


"I tell you what, why not make a modmod with YOUR ideas"

 

[12padams]

Multimaps? I thought that wasn't happening... Hmm... Maybe I might continue my single player astral phaser caveman2cosmos lets play after all... What episode was I up to anyway? Episode 25?

Koshling, how are you feeling about multimaps? Have you gained some hope or is it still a doomed never to come hope?

 

[Faustmouse]

Wow, Padams... don't be so negative! I wanted to say I like the recordet audioquotes


Could you please try to fix the "automated hunters don't really hunt" issue? Mainly because I think it also cripples the AI at the beginning.

 

[strategyonly]

Could you please try to fix the "automated hunters don't really hunt" issue? Mainly because I think it also cripples the AI at the beginning.

Say what? Didnt know there was an issue, anyone??

 

[Faustmouse]

I posted it in the economic thread and the Bug thread
If I automate my hunters, they don't really hunt, they just explore (and even that - always the same places). They only kill actively every once in a while. If they were at least going to new spots where are LOTS of animals that attack the hunters, but since they visit always the same spots, there are only very few animals. So they don't kill much animals active nor passive!

 

[12padams]

Wow, Padams... don't be so negative! I wanted to say I like the recordet audioquotes

Glad to hear it

Still, I've been quite down since koshling announced that multimaps wasn't happening and that he was abandoning this project to work on a new game from scratch. I had high hopes when I started my lets play imagining it being about 100 30 minute episodes ending with myself dominating space.

I mean... My favourite part of this game is feeling like I have broke a barrier/restriction and have become free to explore a new place. The first time this happens is when you gain access to the coast and even kinda explore new continents. The next is when you get access to the full sea and finally when you get access to the sky. It feels so free to fly above what you had been living on all that time yet, you still are kinda in the same place/land even though your safe up in the sky. The big thing is flying into space, ip the solar system, other planets. Total freedom!!! Go fly to the moon, blow up earth and wipe out most of civilization... Of course if you blow up earth as soon as you get to the moon that's too early since you can't survive on the moon and the moon may change its course. Then again... Wait too late and other civs may start taking over the moon and mars so even if you do blow up earth there are still others around and they won't like you for destroying the earth!

Oh what an epic idea for a game, caveman2cosmos! Then boom it's caveman to cosmos without the cosmos part the epic range is what it's all about and the departing from the restriction of earth is such a climax, such an exciting time. It's kinda like spore... Your stuck on earth all that time then you blast off into the solar system then further into space and attempt getting to the core of the galaxy. The initial leaving of earths atmosphere was such an exciting point for me in spore just like the founding of civlization/the Stone Age is for me in sim earth (which was my before I was born). Breaking barriers to explore new lands is what it's all about for me.

Just like when I was exploring the process of being concious while dreaming. Actually being awake within a dream, making plans and performing them as experiments in the dream world. I've moved past that phase of my life now but here's an example of what I mean. I broke the barrier of the physical world and found another world that some people call "the astral dimension". Here was one of my first "astral/lucid" experiences: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtWwcAStO54

Wow, I've gone way off course now. Long story short... I don't want to finish my lets play until multimaps is done otherwise It won't be a caveman2cosmos lets play since there won't be cosmos... Just futuristic land units

 

[Koshling]

Could you please try to fix the "automated hunters don't really hunt" issue? Mainly because I think it also cripples the AI at the beginning.

In my games they seem to be hunting ok (at least initially and as evidenced by the number of subdued-animal-built buildings the AI has). However, if you can post a save where you can see a hunter not making obvious attacks, or just standing around please post it with the unit in question pointed out and I'll look at it.

Note - the AI sometimes uses hunter-line units in other roles (attack/defense/explore) if it's the best unit it can build at the time for that role, so a hunter not hunting is not necessarily wrong (it might be in some other role), but most of the time it should be hunting, and certainly at least some of them (for each AI player) should be.

 

[Faustmouse]

Hmm I have to take a look at it, but I just see the difference in the amount of animals when I hunt and when I let the Hunter Auto Hunt.

 

[Taxman66]

Could the Hunter also be 'healing'?

 

[Koshling]

Could the Hunter also be 'healing'?

Yeh, the hunt AI will prioritize healing at times where a human would probably attack anyway, which might be part of it. However, there could simply, be a bug, so if you find good examples go ahead and post them.

 

[Koshling]

So, anyway, my reply to the thread generally...

...as you know, I've basically been absent for some time (the whole of V28 development really). Initially this was due to workload, but looking back, that was really more of a catalyst than the whole reason. The truth is that I got a bit de-motivated, so the work pressure lead to a rather easy decision to back off on C2C. The de-motivation arose from too much working on stuff I wasn't really enjoying working on, or in some cases found outright frustrating. It's no use to me to spend hobby time working on things I don't enjoy, and it's also no use to the C2C community, since it just leads to me being absent entirely. Consequently, I'm only going to spend significant time on things that are of interest to me from now on, in an effort to avoid a repeat.

Partly, what interests me reflects some differences in my goals from those of C2C more widely. Specifically, I'm not fully on board with the more-is-more philosophy (though I'm not inclined to push back against it either). For me what the game needs more than anything, is to be more challenging. Mostly that means better AI, and at least AI that keeps up with features. To be honest, if the game ended in the modern era that would be fine by me, if it remained challenging up to that point (in fact , if it did, then I'd want to see the next era and so on, but my point is that [for me personally at least] when the game dies due to lack of challenge, its continuation in techs etc. is essentially irrelevant).

With that in mind, here is what I intend to spend my time on:

• AI enhancements, including specifically:
  • Improved hunting if there proves to be a problem with the existing hunting AI
  • Surround & Destroy
  • Great commanders
• Performance improvements for end turn processing. For V29 my goal will be a 20% improvement over V28

I will also provide consultancy as necessary for any work that happens on multi-maps, but I don't intend to do primary work on it myself if that can be avoided.

 

[ls612]

So, anyway, my reply to the thread generally...

...as you know, I've basically been absent for some time (the whole of V28 development really). Initially this was due to workload, but looking back, that was really more of a catalyst than the whole reason. The truth is that I got a bit de-motivated, so the work pressure lead to a rather easy decision to back off on C2C. The de-motivation arose from too much working on stuff I wasn't really enjoying working on, or in some cases found outright frustrating. It's no use to me to spend hobby time working on things I don't enjoy, and it's also no use to the C2C community, since it just leads to me being absent entirely. Consequently, I'm only going to spend significant time on things that are of interest to me from now on, in an effort to avoid a repeat.

Partly, what interests me reflects some differences in my goals from those of C2C more widely. Specifically, I'm not fully on board with the more-is-more philosophy (though I'm not inclined to push back against it either). For me what the game needs more than anything, is to be more challenging. Mostly that means better AI, and at least AI that keeps up with features. To be honest, if the game ended in the modern era that would be fine by me, if it remained challenging up to that point (in fact , if it did, then I'd want to see the next era and so on, but my point is that [for me personally at least] when the game dies due to lack of challenge, its continuation in techs etc. is essentially irrelevant).

With that in mind, here is what I intend to spend my time on:

• AI enhancements, including specifically:
  • Improved hunting if there proves to be a problem with the existing hunting AI
  • Surround & Destroy
  • Great commanders
• Performance improvements for end turn processing. For V29 my goal will be a 20% improvement over V28

I will also provide consultancy as necessary for any work that happens on multi-maps, but I don't intend to do primary work on it myself if that can be avoided.

I can really agree with you on this to a large extent. The AI and performance prohibit the game from getting past the Industrial Era at best most of the time, and that needs to be fixed. You mentioned something about multi-threading the pathing, if my profiles are anything to go by you could get the 20% (actually closer to 25%) right there. The AI certainly needs work in those specific areas you listed, as well as just generally on tactics, it can never do well at all in a war against me on Immortal.

The main thing I'm thinking is that I don't think anyone else (maybe AIAndy, but certainly not myself and Thunderbrd) understand the structure LyTning made to be able to implement multi-maps. We can do parts of it but the core of having the DLL handle multiple map objects and the things involved with that (as well as the AI for that) is really beyond me. I do think that if we get Multi-Maps, even if it is just in the Modern Era for going to the moon, that a lot more people will play C2C and we will get a lot more coverage. And then there is always AXXXXE (if you are still interested in that)

I guess what I'm trying to say in so many words is that it would be really nice to see multi-maps, but I understand perfectly if you don't want to work on them, even if it means we don't get them.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think it's just going to take some patience to see multi-maps come together ls. I'm ready to wait... we've been waiting this long already and I'm not growing impatient at all. Why? Because what's the USE of multi-maps when you can't get a decent game out of the rest of it?

I'm totally in agreement with Koshling's direction, as I feel the issues he'd like to work on at this time are:
a) Far higher priority
b) Stuff really only he is currently capable of doing correctly
c) Will be absolutely necessary to making sure that when multi-maps finally does manifest, it is worthwhile.

See... multi-maps will be opening such an enormous can of worms that will require an enormous amount of work that could consume ALL of the rest of our goals entirely. So there's a few goals I think are actually of greater importance. As for my own contributions, with every task I pick up I learn and grow and improve as a modder and a coder. And I feel much of what I'd like to do for multi-maps is still just a touch on the fuzzy side for me and will be much more in my skill range once some other tasks are completed.

So... I'm not against multi-maps... not at all - hell, I want them as bad as you do! But I'm lost on much of the same points you are, ls612, about where exactly we stand with it, how to work with whatever structure we have so far in the code now, and I'm really not sure who is going to work out the map generation segment.

But its been my experience that with diligence and patience, all things you want can come to pass. We WILL get there! It's obviously just not quite time for it yet. And if we're being honest with ourselves regarding where we are in the development of C2C, I believe it should come as no surprise that we aren't, as a team, yet ready to tackle the multi-map project. The MOD itself is not ready yet! And I think Koshling has well identified what we ARE ready for improvements on now.

 

[Koshling]

I think it's just going to take some patience to see multi-maps come together ls. I'm ready to wait... we've been waiting this long already and I'm not growing impatient at all. Why? Because what's the USE of multi-maps when you can't get a decent game out of the rest of it?

I'm totally in agreement with Koshling's direction, as I feel the issues he'd like to work on at this time are:
a) Far higher priority
b) Stuff really only he is currently capable of doing correctly
c) Will be absolutely necessary to making sure that when multi-maps finally does manifest, it is worthwhile.

See... multi-maps will be opening such an enormous can of worms that will require an enormous amount of work that could consume ALL of the rest of our goals entirely. So there's a few goals I think are actually of greater importance. As for my own contributions, with every task I pick up I learn and grow and improve as a modder and a coder. And I feel much of what I'd like to do for multi-maps is still just a touch on the fuzzy side for me and will be much more in my skill range once some other tasks are completed.

So... I'm not against multi-maps... not at all - hell, I want them as bad as you do! But I'm lost on much of the same points you are, ls612, about where exactly we stand with it, how to work with whatever structure we have so far in the code now, and I'm really not sure who is going to work out the map generation segment.

But its been my experience that with diligence and patience, all things you want can come to pass. We WILL get there! It's obviously just not quite time for it yet. And if we're being honest with ourselves regarding where we are in the development of C2C, I believe it should come as no surprise that we aren't, as a team, yet ready to tackle the multi-map project. The MOD itself is not ready yet! And I think Koshling has well identified what we ARE ready for improvements on now.

I'll write up some documentation for the structure of the multi-map/viewport code as it currently is (and the Python interfaces it has now) soon (probably tomorrow), which hopefully will be enough to enable some more work by those motivated to it.