V30 Plans

[Praetyre]

That's not my point. My point was that Hydro's previously stated goal was to make them completely indistinguishable from each other at the beginning to such an extent than naming them things like "Purple" or "Gamma" would tell you just as much about their effect on gameplay as "Rome" or "Zulu".

 

[Thunderbrd]

My suggestion is really to extend that thinking to the point that the transformation is finally complete and the civ pick means little more than a color and a flag and perhaps if the options are set as such, the leaders that can be picked. The color can also be changed in game and I plan to enable the flag to be changed based on the selected declared culture eventually.

So in short, yes, I'm asking we finish what we've begun and enable a complete dissolution, under options of course, of any meaning at all in the initial civilization selection.

 

[Yudishtira]

Still I wonder though, is base regional culture truly required? Is there a reason for using it and not just letting the terrain and resource vicinity restrictions be enough to define the ability to build the various 'civ' cultures?

If you have enough map resrouces appropriately distrubution via the bArea placement flag, you have a generally sufficient division with that.

You can also add lattitude restrictions on cultures as well to further force geographic distribution.

This all comes from of course a view of playing random large maps.

This is imo a very good idea. I'm thoroughly frustrated by knowing I have to capture someone's city to get a culture from outside Oceania.

In addition, (as discussed before) I hope cultures will stop being exclusive to a civ. They should spread like a religion or corporation (or plague lol), not be omnipresent in and unique to your empire as soon as built in some little corner.

 

[ls612]

My suggestion is really to extend that thinking to the point that the transformation is finally complete and the civ pick means little more than a color and a flag and perhaps if the options are set as such, the leaders that can be picked. The color can also be changed in game and I plan to enable the map to be changed based on the selected declared culture eventually.

So in short, yes, I'm asking we finish what we've begun and enable a complete dissolution, under options of course, of any meaning at all in the initial civilization selection.

That ruins part of the concept of Civ, which is that you do get an actual and real-world civilization to control. I do not want to lose that at the start.

Also, some of the stuff you are suggesting is a bit concerning. Specifically the part about 'enabling the map to change based on declared culture'. How on earth is that at all realistic. Your geographical surroundings influence your culture, not vice versa.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That ruins part of the concept of Civ, which is that you do get an actual and real-world civilization to control. I do not want to lose that at the start.

Also, some of the stuff you are suggesting is a bit concerning. Specifically the part about 'enabling the map to change based on declared culture'. How on earth is that at all realistic. Your geographical surroundings influence your culture, not vice versa.

Sorry... didn't mean to say 'map' there... that was a Freudian Slip... was thinking of the map when I meant the 'flag'.

Our current design already moves past the first part of what you're saying and takes a lot of the impact and importance of that decision away. I'm also not wanting to take that starting decision away from those who want to keep it by enforcing a particular way to play on this subject.

What I'd personally like to see, the C2C I'd like to be able to play, makes what 'actual and real-world civilization' you control be entirely a product of the environment and experience in the game (and be dynamic - undergoing infrequent changes - as no culture ever survived forever but somehow the player should be able to go from the beginning of the game to the end with the same culture - this being the very first immersion breaking unreality to the game.)

We've already begun moving towards making the civilization you control a matter of its environment by the methods we're using for culture obtaining. I'm currently suggesting one step farther, make the base culture depend on the starting location rather than on player selection.

That said, all along I've also said that should be an option, as I also understand the players who feel as you do. Furthermore, to further quell any loss of enjoyment for that side of the fence that more greatly appreciates the feel of Vanilla and the depth of the impact of the initial Civilization selection, we should also strive to get all cultures represented by a civilization and all civilizations represented by a culture so that we can move into another game option that takes things BACK towards the direction you're talking about, where that civilization selection that's made at the beginning of the game is fixed and meaningful. Such an option would simply autobuild the cultural wonder that corresponds to that civilization.

Where we are now is a somewhat awkward in-between and perhaps that's best for the default. But getting BOTH of those options implemented eventually is IMO fairly important for us because at the moment we nibble at the backs of the minds of both the immersive/reality seekers and the boardgamers. I'm simply suggesting we give methods for both to get what THEY want out of their games.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well as you can see I did not get very far with the screens. However I hope to get Natural Wonders in before the release. It has a couple of things that need discussion or amendment to fit with C2C.

1) National Wonders only affect those cities within 2 tiles of them. Whereas C2C has the third ring workable. So should it be 3 tiles?

2) Effect is that nearby cities get a free random specialist (not sure which type atm) but C2C specialists (great and population) depend on techs and world views. I assume we would not want any of the settled slaves to be given by the national Wonders.

I am currently testing that they a random selection is placed on the map. C2C has an advantage here as we have a post map script process where we can place this. I still have to add in the pedia pages after ensuring that the NW are being placed on the new randomly generated map.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well as you can see I did not get very far with the screens. However I hope to get Natural Wonders in before the release. It has a couple of things that need discussion or amendment to fit with C2C.

1) Natural Wonders only affect those cities within 2 tiles of them. Whereas C2C has the third ring workable. So should it be 3 tiles?

2) Effect is that nearby cities get a free random specialist (not sure which type atm) but C2C specialists (great and population) depend on techs and world views. I assume we would not want any of the settled slaves to be given by the Natural Wonders.

I am currently testing that they a random selection is placed on the map. C2C has an advantage here as we have a post map script process where we can place this. I still have to add in the pedia pages after ensuring that the NW are being placed on the new randomly generated map.

To clarify in red.

I agree with both points. If they offer a 'free specialist' generically, then usually the player gets a proxy citizen that can only be used for specialist selection and does not take up the normal population point drain on the city... is that how those are added from NWs? (Ex: the free specialists given to the city for every ocean based resource when you have a fisherman's hut...)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yep, Natural Wonders no longer needs dll tag work for it to work fine. Thanks to Platyping.

However it is all moot. I can't get the debug stuff to appear in PythonErr2.log and until I can there is nothing I can do on this or any other stuff. I have the BUG options set to Debug level on the file but nothing is coming out. I tried Error level and still nothing is coming out. With debug it used to tell you all the units, terrain features and resources defined as well as when each of the optional python modules were loaded - I need all of that information to find out what is going on. Something has changed somewhere and now nothing is coming out.

 

[AIAndy]

Yep, Natural Wonders no longer needs dll tag work for it to work fine. Thanks to Platyping.

However it is all moot. I can't get the debug stuff to appear in PythonErr2.log and until I can there is nothing I can do on this or any other stuff. I have the BUG options set to Debug level on the file but nothing is coming out. I tried Error level and still nothing is coming out. With debug it used to tell you all the units, terrain features and resources defined as well as when each of the optional python modules were loaded - I need all of that information to find out what is going on. Something has changed somewhere and now nothing is coming out.

Are you sure you are not talking about PythonDbg.log ?

 

[strategyonly]

Well as you can see I did not get very far with the screens. However I hope to get Natural Wonders in before the release. It has a couple of things that need discussion or amendment to fit with C2C.

Take your time to get it correct, ok. Those can be placed in while we are in the freeze, no problem.

I want to get a new version out AROUND the 10th of May, if thats ok with everyone else.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Are you sure you are not talking about PythonDbg.log ?

OK, so I am having a senior's moment - I am allowed and thanks

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If they offer a 'free specialist' generically, then usually the player gets a proxy citizen that can only be used for specialist selection and does not take up the normal population point drain on the city... is that how those are added from NWs? (Ex: the free specialists given to the city for every ocean based resource when you have a fisherman's hut...)

No wrong building. I think they are getting specialists like the Great Library gives you Great Scientist specialists not Scientist specialists.

 

[0100010]

(Ex: the free specialists given to the city for every ocean based resource when you have a fisherman's hut...)

I never understood why those boat buildings give free specialists. Its not realistic IMO, and it seems a legacy of the (still) overpowere and unbalaced aspect of "Moar stuff"

I could understand it if the building were adding to the yields of fishing/whaling boats, but tell me why does the existence of a Marina allow me to have more Priests or Artists etc?

If you want improvements that add to free specialists use cottage-town chain to make them worth building again.

 

[Thunderbrd]

No wrong building. I think they are getting specialists like the Great Library gives you Great Scientist specialists not Scientist specialists.

Ok... just clarifying.

I never understood why those boat buildings give free specialists. Its not realistic IMO, and it seems a legacy of the (still) overpowere and unbalaced aspect of "Moar stuff"

I could understand it if the building were adding to the yields of fishing/whaling boats, but tell me why does the existence of a Marina allow me to have more Priests or Artists etc?

If you want improvements that add to free specialists use cottage-town chain to make them worth building again.

I really like those buildings as they are but I totally agree. I also like the idea of tagging an effect of such a nature off of towns in vicinity. The idea of adjusting yield rates on particular plots based on buildings is something I've been wanting to explore more too.

 

[0100010]

I really like those buildings as they are but I totally agree. I also like the idea of tagging an effect of such a nature off of towns in vicinity. The idea of adjusting yield rates on particular plots based on buildings is something I've been wanting to explore more too.

According to the v29 Pedia, Tsukiji Fish market already adds +1F, +1C to Fishing boats, so (if it is working) that ability already exists. The Boatyard and Marina could be changed to have that effect now.

The Village Hall - Metropolitan Administration building line already add free specialists, but they could be modified to to incorporate the free X specialists per town effect the boatyard and marina had.

I cant recall the last time I ever actually wanted my workers to build cottages not even back as far as AND, unless there was literally no other improvements that could have been built in that plot.

Would you spend the time to invest building a cottage and waiting for the chain of improvement upgrades, and needed tech for the admin building to get a payout of +X specialists per Town later on in the game?

Would the AI understand and do the above?

It make the most sense to me. You have a number of towns on the outskirts of your city which represent a population of people. Inevitably that population of people is going to generate a specialized economy which contributes to your city as said various specialists.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

According to the v29 Pedia, Tsukiji Fish market already adds +1F, +1C to Fishing boats, so (if it is working) that ability already exists.

That is done in Python.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That is done in Python.

Thanks for the clarification on that. You anticipated my question and answered it before I asked I didn't THINK we had this in xml tags yet.

 

[platyping]

Well as you can see I did not get very far with the screens. However I hope to get Natural Wonders in before the release. It has a couple of things that need discussion or amendment to fit with C2C.

1) National Wonders only affect those cities within 2 tiles of them. Whereas C2C has the third ring workable. So should it be 3 tiles?

2) Effect is that nearby cities get a free random specialist (not sure which type atm) but C2C specialists (great and population) depend on techs and world views. I assume we would not want any of the settled slaves to be given by the national Wonders.

I am currently testing that they a random selection is placed on the map. C2C has an advantage here as we have a post map script process where we can place this. I still have to add in the pedia pages after ensuring that the NW are being placed on the new randomly generated map.

1) Actually, atm the NW only affects cities built within 1 tile.
The reason is because it is possible for cities to share a same tile in the outer layer.
Did not want 2 or more cities to benefit from the same NW, so limiting it to 1 tile effectively solve it due to min city distance or whatever you call that.

Personally, the yield and global happiness are enough as a bonus, since you can set it pretty high.
The specialist and first player benefit codes are just for modders to add whatever benefits they like.

2) For the random specialist, currently it will choose any that has GP points.
In other words, not a GP itself and not a civilian.