v7 feedback

Works fine with me. :confused: Do you have a save?
Ok sorry, the +2 :gp: for Homo Superior DOES work even if it isn't your state value; it was a embarassing misunderstanding on my part! :p

The fact that enemy units can move as fast in your territory as you, is never gonna change. :p
But the movement limitation is hard indeed, and mag tube are too late in the game! Let's put early roads... then give everyone commando promotion for free! :D
 
It's the same as in unmodded Civ.
Anyway, I hate inflation and would like to remove it. I still want unit maintenance to increase somehow though, as otherwise that would become less of a factor as the game progresses. So before removing inflation I first need to code a way for unit maintenance to increase. Perhaps later era units could cost 2 gold in maintenance or so.

The values are the same as vanilla, but it isn't the same in a relative sense because of all the other things that are different.
Economy growth is, in general, much slower than in civ. Marketplaces and libraries or their equivalent are much higher tech and much more expensive.
Much higher unhealthiness, fewer food resources, negative planet costs, and terrain destruction by native-life growth mean that you have smaller cities with smaller economic output than in vanilla civ.
Smaller population also means smaller free military unit upkeep, so unit upkeep is higher.

Thus, your economy is much smaller by turn 300 in this mod than in vanilla civ, but you are facing the same inflation percentage.

So, inflation is relatively more costly and consumes a larger proportion of your economy than in vanilla.
Perhaps later era units could cost 2 gold in maintenance or so.

This sounds good to me - eliminate inflation, but make some of the higher tech units more expensive to upkeep.
In the save you attached it works for me. Not for you?

Maybe I am mistaken, I'm not certain about this one. I'll check again at some point. I thought I had a city with homo superior without seeing the GPPs in the tooltip, but I could be wrong.
That's crappy AI choices, not bad design choices I think.

The error lies in what places the start positions relative to tile yields. IMO you need to give higher weight to food resources in determining start positions.
Do you really expect the AI to waste multiple turns in the early game moving before founding their capitol?

If you want to have 3+ food tiles, you need to pay the price. You can't eat your cake and have it too.

Why? In vanilla civ and every mod I've seen its fairly easy from basic tech to be able to get 3-food tile yields. Which are what are needed to support any other tiles while still having a growing city.

It also further emphasizes the importance of getting a good start position.
What would for instance be the fun of a map completely consisting of rainy plots, not a single peak in sight etc?

None, obviously that would be boring. But I dislike changes that the human player can get around (but only using tedious micromanagement)
IMO a fun game is one where you don't have to micromanage boring details; micromanagement should only be about decisions that have strategic value (which building should I construct here, which specialists should I use, which tiles should I work), not ones that are just boring busywork.
Though having said that, micromanaging specialists to constantly de-select Librarians is a huge PITA as well. Why not change the network node to provide a Scientist slot rather than a Librarian?
Making ridge<->lowland movement always passable within your borders would give too great an advantage to the defender I think

Well, as it stands, the defender currently gets *no* defensive advantages at all. Except Bunkers, I guess. (Another issue with bunkers; once a bunker is destroyed in combat, the terrain improvement is still there, and the visual icon is still there, even though its meaningless - maybe destroy the bunker improvement if the unit is destroyed?).
However I could allow you to move between ridge<->lowland IF there is a bunker on the source or target plot. One can assume every bunker comes with a local ferry service. That implementation allows an interesting twist in combat, as it allows an attacker to cut off the possibility for reinforcements, by first focusing on the bunker.
The AI of course wouldn't understand that tactic without additional coding.

This sounds like a useful workaround, IF you can somehow tell the AI to build a bunker on a ridge adjacent to a lowland if it is has 2 adjacent ridges or ocean tiles.
Targeting Bunkers first is already a very good idea, given how powerful their bombardment ability is.
The fact that enemy units can move as fast in your territory as you, is never gonna change.

Well, I just hate that design decision, though its obviously yours to make.
It just makes absolutely no sense to me; in every military episode in human history, the defender ALWAYS has a home-territory advantage because of better supply lines, better transportation, better knowledge of/adaptation to terrain and climate (eg Russian winter, or Crusaders vs deserts), and an ability to use the population more. I don't understand why you want to make invasions so easy, or cities so hard to defend or reinforce. It also tends to really encourage Stack of Doom philosophy, and to make the only way that you can defend also be a Stack of Doom - whereas when the defender has better mobility, they can use that to their advantage to whittle down invading armies over time.

Still, how about increasing the movement rate, so that even if both attacker and defender move at the same rate, its at a faster rate? It takes WAY too long to move all your units around within your empire during peacetime, or to get reinforcements to a fight in wartime.
This strikes me as a contradiction.

Not really, I don't want to have to micromanage all my movement or be constantly loading and unloading dropships in order to get anything done.
Regarding 'fungal blooms', I could not let them cause fungal growth directly, but let fungus spawn after a while on every plot with a fungal tower (sometimes spawned with fungal blooms). So you'd have a while to try and save the furniture.

I like this a lot. This would massively improve the game, particularly for Terraformer economies who build expensive Boreholes and condensors and use Farms for food- and who get many more native uprisings.
 
But the movement limitation is hard indeed, and mag tube are too late in the game! Let's put early roads... then give everyone commando promotion for free! :D

I removed early roads because having roads all over the place reduces the differences between terrains. If all terrain has roads, stuff like some terrain costing two movement points to pass through has little meaning anymore. Reducing the occurence of roads increases the value of bonuses which allow you to get somewhere faster. Like 'double movement in fungus' (native life), 'flat movement over all terrain' (chopper->hovertank->gravship), 'drop range' (drop troops), naval transporting.

Do you really expect the AI to waste multiple turns in the early game moving before founding their capitol?

They should research towards Enclosed Biosphere.

Though having said that, micromanaging specialists to constantly de-select Librarians is a huge PITA as well. Why not change the network node to provide a Scientist slot rather than a Librarian?

I'd rather find out why the game always likes to pick espionage-providing specialists. I already lowered the weight the AI attaches to espionage commerce, but it doesn't help.

Not really, I don't want to have to micromanage all my movement or be constantly loading and unloading dropships in order to get anything done.

That's a good point. My thought for Dropships:
2 movement points
flat movement costs (should have been that way all along)
double movement speed on water

Anyway, in combat situations I want transports to be a faster way to get somewhere, than just by foot, so to speak. However I don't want to have to use transports for all peaceful transport. Some crazy possible solution I came up with: allow all land units to move over water terrain inside your territory, at a speed of three plots per turn. Representing local transport capacity. It would also make a sea base empire easier to manage. All land units could get a -95% strength penalty on non-city water plots or something, so in combat areas it would not be wise to use this mode of transport. The big drawback would be that graphically it would look rather weird to have land units walking over water.
 
The big drawback would be that graphically it would look rather weird to have land units walking over water.

Remember the "stormtower" graphic when a swordsman attacks a city?
It might be possible to change this graphic in a transport foil and let it pop up when a land unit "moves" across water to another spot...
 
Some crazy possible solution I came up with: allow all land units to move over water terrain inside your territory, at a speed of three plots per turn. Representing local transport capacity. It would also make a sea base empire easier to manage. All land units could get a -95% strength penalty on non-city water plots or something, so in combat areas it would not be wise to use this mode of transport

This is a very interesting idea, but my main worry would be that potentially the AI would use this kind of movement still during wartime, and potentially have its army be sitting ducks at sea, where you could eliminate their entire armyt.

It would also have the effect of pathfinding leading you all troop movement even on continents being concentrated using coastal shipping. So to get from A to B on my continent, I move to the coast, then move down the coast on ocean tiles (very vulnerable while doing so) and then move back onto land. Do you really want such an emphasis on nautical movement? That works for some parts of human history, but not so much for the far future.

2 movement for dropships seems.... really low. Is it really no faster to fly than to drive using rovers or tanks or APCs? I'd leave them at 3 moves, but make it so that units unloaded from them (at least outside of city tiles) can't move on the turn that they unload. Or reduce their transport capacity I guess.

Another point I noticed; submarines obsolete foils, but subs can't pillage while foils can. So you lose the ability to do naval pillaging until you get to cruisers (or native life).
Since subs aren't Hidden anymore, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to pillage.
 
This is a very interesting idea, but my main worry would be that potentially the AI would use this kind of movement still during wartime, and potentially have its army be sitting ducks at sea, where you could eliminate their entire armyt.

Ah, hadn't thought of that yet. But fortunately it's possible in the pathfinder to prevent units from moving through dangerous terrain.

That works for some parts of human history, but not so much for the far future.

Naval transport is no longer the fastest, but still the cheapest way to transport a whole bunch of stuff.

2 movement for dropships seems.... really low. Is it really no faster to fly than to drive using rovers or tanks or APCs? I'd leave them at 3 moves, but make it so that units unloaded from them (at least outside of city tiles) can't move on the turn that they unload. Or reduce their transport capacity I guess.

Un/loading units is a complicated business. I'd rather not touch the rules of that too much. Besides, if the goal is preventing micromanagement-heavy ways of transport from being better than micromanagemenless ways, dropships on land can't be faster than other means of movement.

Another point I noticed; submarines obsolete foils, but subs can't pillage while foils can. So you lose the ability to do naval pillaging until you get to cruisers (or native life).
Since subs aren't Hidden anymore, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to pillage.

The upgrade path of foils is kinda problematic. I don't really want to have a foil line of ships throughout the entire game. But unfortunately foils do have somewhat different abilities than cruisers or submarines. Foil can move through fungus, unlike cruisers. And foils carry land units. I think I'd prefer submarines to be unable to do so. So not really sure what to do with foils. :(
 
I choosed "Scattered Landing Pods" (Map had Low Sea Level) and the generator placed most factions on islands.

The starting position generator is fixed for the next patch.

I stumbled a bug/crash, when trying to trade techs. I believe it is related to the fact that I built the Unity Observation Bay in this game...in the attached save, call up Morgan and ask him what he is willing to give you for Algaculture. Should be Industrial Automation, 220 Credits and his worldmap - if you accept that deal, the game crashes. Even more strange is the fact that Morgan will no longer accept the deal, if you remove the Worldmap (from his side!) of the table.

That save already crashes for me, even if I simply try to open the Worldbuilder. As a consequence I don't really know how I could find out the cause of the crash. :( I'd probably need all the autosaves, so that I could check when the worldbuilder crash starts occurring, and hope I notice something special in between thsose turns.
 
Naval transport is no longer the fastest, but still the cheapest way to transport a whole bunch of stuff.

Only cross continent. Its otherwise cheaper to move stuff on land. You don't see a ton of stuff getting shipped via sea from New York to Washington DC; its cheaper to stick on trucks instead. Historically, you would move anything like this by ship since land movement was so slow (before major motorways were built). Your idea would model this, by basically using coastal shipping routes as faster than land transport, which would feel a bit weird in a futuristic mod.
Un/loading units is a complicated business. I'd rather not touch the rules of that too much. Besides, if the goal is preventing micromanagement-heavy ways of transport from being better than micromanagemenless ways, dropships on land can't be faster than other means of movement.

I realize there are conflicting design goals with no easy answers, I'm just pointing out some of the problems with various design choices.
The upgrade path of foils is kinda problematic. I don't really want to have a foil line of ships throughout the entire game. But unfortunately foils do have somewhat different abilities than cruisers or submarines. Foil can move through fungus, unlike cruisers. And foils carry land units. I think I'd prefer submarines to be unable to do so. So not really sure what to do with foils.

I'm pretty sure that I've moved cruisers through fungus, as it should be since native life spawning can often lock a port entirely in fungus. It would be very annoying if you couldn't exit your port cities. I'm not sure if I've ever moved foils through fungus (subs definitely can).
What I'd do is have them be upgradable without being obsolete. So, a city can still build foils even once you've researched subs.
Or just let subs pillage.

I'd consider having foils have higher movement - a hydrofoil might not have any significant combat ability or cargo capacity, but it sure is fast.
 
Hi, had a fun time testing your mod. It's getting there...

What are the different religions and their bonuses/drawbacks ? As it turns out I founded all but one on a emperor game in my first try, but I had no clue what they was, and all civilopedia entries was for vanilla religions...:crazyeye:

The same with the icons for the religions in the diplomatic view...
 
Only cross continent. Its otherwise cheaper to move stuff on land. You don't see a ton of stuff getting shipped via sea from New York to Washington DC; its cheaper to stick on trucks instead.

I can give counterexamples of stuff being being shipped within Europe and Eurasia.
Anyway, if a solution which satisfies both realism/roleplay and gameplay can be found, that is of course preferable. But this realism discussion alone isn't gonna change the suggested gameplay solution.

I'm pretty sure that I've moved cruisers through fungus

Within your territory I guess. Naval units can move freely within one's territory. See vanilla workboats.
Anyway, I was thinking to make cruiser and artillery unable to attack directly into fungus instead.

Or just let subs pillage.

I think I'll do that, but make them visible for a turn after pillaging something.

What are the different religions and their bonuses/drawbacks ? As it turns out I founded all but one on a emperor game in my first try, but I had no clue what they was, and all civilopedia entries was for vanilla religions...:crazyeye:

You mean you don't know their gameplay effects, or you don't know their background story?
Their gameplay effects can be found in the Datalinks, in the city screen etc. :confused:

The same with the icons for the religions in the diplomatic view...

In the new patch, there are icons for the religions.
 
I can give counterexamples of stuff being being shipped within Europe and Eurasia.

There's still a lot of coastal shipping in Europe? I'm surprised. But I admit I know much more about north american trade patterns.

But this realism discussion alone isn't gonna change the suggested gameplay solution.

Understood, the main problem with it I think is that for the AI in particular it would make their units massively vulnerable, particularly to native-life spawnings. It seems very common that many civs are completely unable to control native life on water within their territory, and have their entire coastlines choked with fungus, and native life spawning points. So I worry they'd keep moving their units onto water to get them to move faster, and then have them get walloped (with their strength penalties) by native life.

Within your territory I guess. Naval units can move freely within one's territory. See vanilla workboats.
Anyway, I was thinking to make cruiser and artillery unable to attack directly into fungus instead.

Sounds fine. Maybe this should also work for armor units? So they can move within fungus (within your territory at least), but just can't attack into it.
I think I'll do that, but make them visible for a turn after pillaging something.

Again sounds fine, though enemy subs *seem* to be completely visible at the moment - maybe just because it was within my territory, or because I had my own subs nearby without realizing?
 
There's still a lot of coastal shipping in Europe?

I think the word "still" is unnecessary. Intra-European shipping is increasing. Anyway, I did a little Google search, and a third of the port of Antwerp's shipping is intra-European. Also if trucks were so much cheaper, river & canal shipping would be inexistent by now.
In any case, I don't know anything about transport economy. Perhaps, while the cost per kilometer is lower for ships than for trucks, the fixed cost of loading a ship is bigger than loading some trucks, meaning for short distances such as between NY and Washington, trucks might be preferred.

Anyway, Planet does not have a developed road network, so it would be very realistic for naval shipping to be the main method of transport especially in the early game.

I'm thinking I could also allow movement along riversides to happen at an increased speed, so you'd get this natural distinction between high-movement and isolated/wilderness areas on the map. Sounds more fun to me than equalized all-road terrain.

Understood, the main problem with it I think is that for the AI in particular it would make their units massively vulnerable, particularly to native-life spawnings.

I can't know for sure yet of course, but I think it should be easy to prevent by using the AI_getPlotDanger function to restrict land-unit-on-sea movement.

Sounds fine. Maybe this should also work for armor units? So they can move within fungus (within your territory at least), but just can't attack into it.

Yep. With Artillery I inaccurately meant to say "treaded unitcombattype".

Again sounds fine, though enemy subs *seem* to be completely visible at the moment - maybe just because it was within my territory, or because I had my own subs nearby without realizing?

Ah woops. Submarines are indeed visible now (I'm assuming detection technology has improved), but I intend to add a special ability which can make submarines invisible while at full health, and a promotion which makes native life invisible on fungus.
 
The starting position generator is fixed for the next patch.

Indeed, works nicely now. No more AIs or me on small islands with patch e :goodjob:


That save already crashes for me, even if I simply try to open the Worldbuilder. As a consequence I don't really know how I could find out the cause of the crash. :( I'd probably need all the autosaves, so that I could check when the worldbuilder crash starts occurring, and hope I notice something special in between thsose turns.

Sadly, all those autosaves were deleted because of loading in another mod after playing and every manual save I had made before already crashed when trying to enter the WB :( I build the Observation Bay in the new game with Patch e as well and Worldmap trading worked fine, so the problem is likely more sophisticated than I thought at first.



Did patch e change anything in regard to costs or inflation? Playing again on Emperor (as Believers), I had no problems to run 100% science for most of the game. I had maybe a few cities less and got lucky with some Great Tycoons I settled down in my capital, but in the last games I struggled not to get bankrupt (and science spending was most of the time between 0 and 30%), so it feels like something has changed.

The AIs expanded a lot more (after 218 turns, all AI factions have between 6 and 10 cities) and the AI did a good job in regard to hunting down native life on sea. My neighbour and ally Yang even had the power to kill of native life from fungals blooms in my territory twice.

What hasn't changed is the constant rising of the FC, 2313 it reached 45 climbing almost linearly. In regard to the AIs Hybrid/Terraforming choices in this game, so far 2 AIs (Deidre and Yang) have choosen Hybrid, while the others are (still) running EB. What I realized though, is the low desire of the AIs to actually research the Terraforming tech, if they have met the prequesites - I traded Environmental Economics around and now 5 out of 6 AIs have it and none even started to research Terraforming. Maybe Terraformed and Edenism should come earlier in the tech tree (currently the have about the same level as Hybrid, but somehow get bypassed at least by the AIs) - IMHO, it wouldn't be too unrealistic. If people try to colonize a new planet, isn't it more intuitive that they first try to form it into a new earth, before they might realize that assimilating to it might be another (and even better) way?

I also noticed that High Energy Chemistry enables the Helium ressource, what actually does nothing for the game - because Helium becomes only visible with an earlier tech called High Intensity Lasers, which you cannot research.
 
Could you make so units went faster when on coastlines, rather than actually having to move into the water tiles? That might be more effective. You can justify it by saying they''re moving using shipping resources, but still keep docking at the end of each turn to set up camps/forage for supplies on land every few months.

That way you lose some of the weirdness of land units walking on water tiles, and any issues of vulnerability.

Faster movement along rivers (ahh, original civ homage) seems fine too.

So coastlines and rivers are transport routes (hints of colonial Africa), and the interior of continents are less accessible until you get the tech for roads.

I'm liking the bunker solution for ridges btw, and dropships moving faster over water. It works well.
 
The Unity Observation Bay is nice, but it totally ruins your ability to grab goody huts since it doesn't show them on the map, and thus you have no idea what you've already explored, and what you haven't. Without it, I usually am lucky with my early rover and grab a few materials pods (one for the unity cyrobay, one for the library to bulb memetics).

Any way to change it so (1) it comes later in the tech tree, or (2) shows me the pods?
 
The latest patches were great, I really like how this mod keeps improving.
I have much appreciated that now other religions don't lose their bonuses when a state religion is chosen, and that proper icons have been made for several buildings (for example the Pressure Dome, that had the Infirmary icon previously).
Keep up the good work! :goodjob:
 
I runned into a crash, which is probably related to native life capturing bases. There is a fungal bloom near one of my bases and an attack of native life - first a spore louncher damaging my defender, then a mindworm attacking him and crashing the game.

I have two saves for it. Reason is that my last action in the turn before the crash was a revolution two new civics - if you don't make that revolution, the native life attack on the base does not happen and no crash happens as well. Likely thats just the nature of the RNG (my revolution changing the seed, so that an attack is triggered), but in the unlikely case that the civic change has a direct impat as well, I have posted a save before the revolution (which does not crash if you just end the turn, but will crash if you switch to Democratic and Wealth before) and one with that revolution already started (which crashes when pressing turn end).
 

Attachments

Did patch e change anything in regard to costs or inflation?
The AIs expanded a lot more

Nothing was changed yet in patch e on these matters. I guess that's just the natural variability you get between games. Eg your game can differ a lot depending if you build mines or windmills.

What I realized though, is the low desire of the AIs to actually research the Terraforming tech, if they have met the prequesites - I traded Environmental Economics around and now 5 out of 6 AIs have it and none even started to research Terraforming. Maybe Terraformed and Edenism should come earlier in the tech tree

The Civ4 tech research picker is really awful. It wouldn't be much different if you just let a random number generator pick the tech to research. This doesn't matter much in vanilla Civ4, because the tech tree is very narrow. In Planetfall there are more choices, so I guess I'll have to make some changes to the AI on this matter eventually...

I wouldn't want to bring Terraforming earlier in the tech tree though. It's the same tech level as Ascetic Virtues and Homo Superior. Voice of Planet a tech level earlier is intentional, because I like Voice of Planet potentially having a bigger influence than the other religions. One of SMAC/Planetfall's main themes is pro-Planet against anti-Planet after all, so pro-Planet should have a decent influence for that design to work eventually.

I also noticed that High Energy Chemistry enables the Helium ressource, what actually does nothing for the game - because Helium becomes only visible with an earlier tech called High Intensity Lasers, which you cannot research.

Ah woops, will look into this.

Could you make so units went faster when on coastlines, rather than actually having to move into the water tiles? That might be more effective. You can justify it by saying they''re moving using shipping resources, but still keep docking at the end of each turn to set up camps/forage for supplies on land every few months.

That way you lose some of the weirdness of land units walking on water tiles, and any issues of vulnerability.

Sometimes continents can be rather snaky though, with lots of terrain coastal, so you'd once again lose much of the influence of terrain on combat.

Besides, when I get to implementing this, I'd make land units unable to walk over blockaded water plots. That way you could shut down your enemy's fast water routes by bringing in some ships. Could make navies more useful. Walking over coastal land wouldn't allow this.

As for the weird look, Geo's suggestion re recycling the siege graphic might actually work. That would help at least a bit.

The Unity Observation Bay is nice, but it totally ruins your ability to grab goody huts since it doesn't show them on the map, and thus you have no idea what you've already explored, and what you haven't. ... Any way to change it so (1) it comes later in the tech tree, or (2) shows me the pods?

I'll check it out.

I runned into a crash

Thanks. I'll investigate it too.
 
I runned into a crash, which is probably related to native life capturing bases

Perimeter defenses in barbarian bases are causing crashes. The problem is graphical. Can't really tell any more at the moment. GeoModder should have a look at it.

If you don't want to wait for the next patch (might take another week) and don't mind digging into XML yourself, you can change the perimeter defense building's artdefine, or the perimeter defense artdefine's LSYSTEM to anything else. Crash gone.
 
I just discovered that the Small map setting gives 7 factions, just as the Standard map setting. I leftover from testing patch g?
 
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