Various Civilization Changes Polls:

InkAxis

King
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Feb 24, 2020
Messages
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This amount of changes is a lot.

No. Like, it’s absurd. Your not going to get meaningful data / responses. This is asking for a huge chunk of time to consider all of the changes.
I agree, next time I would split up the polls and have them here on civfanatics, you get much less turnout the way you're doing it and not every option can be selected.
Especially for big changes like the America one, I would have it seperated. Maybe the smaller ones could be condensed.

Korea - Can't comment too much, don't play them. They seem like a one dimensional civ, and the proposed change only seems to double down on that.
I agree with this entire comment, I think my thoughts are fairly similar, but I wanted to especially emphasize this point about Korea specifically.
Removing :c5greatperson: and replacing it with :c5science: just seems more boring.
And the Seowon, I mean I guess giving :c5science: to some tiles is better than just %:c5science: but still not anything crazy, but now you need GPTI.
And it really stops the flexibility of this civ even more. It's so pigeonholed into the exact route. At least before the early Seowon unlock allowed for a warmonger push with the hwacha which was interesting. And the :c5science: was just a bonus, not relying on GPTI.
 

pineappledan

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Update on where we stand on the polls as of Friday morning
Spoiler :

America change from 1 standalone wonder to 3 Venice-style ones:
12 - Yes
4 - No​

Mongol Changes, removing 1 of its 2 Tribute demand bonuses, and adding a unique GP tile to the Khan:
9 - Yes to both the UA and Khan change
3 - Yes for only the Khan Change
2 - No to both​

England White tower base UB change to Ironworks:
9 - Yes
3 - No​

Indonesia addition of stronger Monopoly bonuses, Building resource bonuses for Garden, and Mystic Blade promotion rework:
11 - Yes to all 3
3 - Yes to only the Mystic Blade promotion changes
1 - No to all​

Maya Atlatl Strike nerf:
8 - Yes
4 - No​

Zulu change, adding stronger tributing to UA, removing free XP from Iklwa, and making the Impi's bonus vs gunpowder stay on upgrade:
10 - Yes to all
1 - Yes to removing free XP from Iklwa only
1 - Yes to making the Impi's bonus vs gunpowder stay on upgrade only
1 - No to all​

India changes, adding Barrage 1 to Naga Malla has a promotion that stays on upgrade, and taking the Flood Plains bonus off the Harrapan Reservoir:
3 - Yes to Both
5 - Yes to adding Barrage 1 to Naga Malla only
3 - No to Both​

Iroquois Changes, removing the Natural wonder combat bonus from their UA, adding production to camps to the longhouse, and adding Woodsman to Mohawk Warriors:
7 - Yes to all
4 - Yes to adding production to longhouses only
2 - No to all​

Siam changes, increasing their yields from CS to +100%, and adding the General Stacking promotion that stays on upgrade to Siam
12 - Yes to all
1 - No to all​

Swedish
Carolean changes, moving it back to Fusilier, removing its great general stacking promotion (and giving it to Siam), and increasing the AoE damage from its Grenadier promotion:
6 - Yes to all
1 - Yes to moving it back to Fusiliers
1 - Yes to removing Great General stacking
2 - Yes to buffing Grenadiers​

Songhai Mandekalu Cavalry change, moving it back to knight:
9 - Yes
3 - No​

Brazilwood Camo build prerequisite change, changing it from forest/no 2 adjacent/luxury adjacent to forest/no 2 adjacent/no freshwater access
8 - Yes
6 - No​

Carthage change, allowing Heavy Assault to carry forward on Upgrade
12 - Yes
2 - No​

Korea Changes, Moving the %GP rate during GAs, moving the Science bonus during GAs to the UA, adding a bonus to GP Tiles to the Seowon, and moving the Seowon unlock back
4 - Yes to both
4 - Yes to the UA and UB bonus changes, except the tech unlock change
6 - No to both​
 

pineappledan

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Removing :c5greatperson: and replacing it with :c5science: just seems more boring.
And the Seowon, I mean I guess giving :c5science: to some tiles is better than just %:c5science: but still not anything crazy, but now you need GPTI.
And it really stops the flexibility of this civ even more. It's so pigeonholed into the exact route. At least before the early Seowon unlock allowed for a warmonger push with the hwacha which was interesting. And the :c5science: was just a bonus, not relying on GPTI.
Currently the UA gives +33%:c5greatperson:GPrate during :c5goldenage:Golden ages and the Seowon gives +15%:c5science: Science during Golden ages. This proposal is mainly to condense that into a single %-based GA bonus for the whole civ instead of having two things that use the same trigger.

It was pointed out on the forum that the two most dedicated Science Victory civs -- Babylon and Korea -- both have big :c5greatperson:Great person bonuses in their UA. So it seemed reasonable to get rid of the % GPRate bonus, leaving just the science one, move that to the UA, and try to think of some other bonus for the Seowon. Keeps the two civs a little more separated.

Ideally, I think the Seowon should be some sort of tile improvement -- it doesn't make much sense as a building, because they were specifically located in secluded places, far away from cities, either by building them or more frequently by taking over a pre-existing monastery. Boosting some GP tiles seemed like the closest thing while still keeping it a building.

While discussing this, I think I would advocate for making it +1:c5science::c5production: on GP tiles instead of +2:c5science:, since that's the same bonus the Seowon gives to :greatwork:Great Works
 
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stormfallen

Warlord
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
123
Generally in favor of everything, except for Songhai. I think their UA is a far bigger problem than their UU. I'd be in favor of moving the UU to knight for more historical accuracy, but not while there are already so many knight UUs.
 

KlHannibal2

Warlord
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Aug 12, 2021
Messages
229
Were the indonesian monopolies not buffed in the 7-1 version?

Cloves Monopoly now +20% Faith, +3 Happy
Pepper Monopoly now +10% Culture, +3 Happy
Nutmeg Monopoly now +10% Production, +3 Happy

Those seem stronger than the monopolies suggested here.
 

pineappledan

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They were, yes. The big difference is that the new UA would boost ALL luxury resource monopolies, not just the special Indonesian ones. It works like the existing Colonialism policy in Imperialism.

Indonesia gets 6:c5happy: from cloves, 3:c5food: on tiles from Pepper, and +10%:c5production: on empire from Nutmeg, but with the UA boosting ALL monopolies, they actually get 9:c5happy:, +5:c5food: on tile, and +15%:c5production:, but they also boost things like Tea and Whales in the same way.

The current unique resource monopolies for Cloves/Pepper/Nutmeg are a lot stronger than normal monopoly resources, which makes Indonesia even more rewarding to conquer. With the stronger monopolies tied to the UA, Indonesia has a second ability that compliments the resource spawning, while keeping the monopolies standard for would-be invaders
 
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Bruhmoment

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goddamnit you changed shaka anyway :cry:
I kind of like the buff to Indonesia, if he's my neighbour he's gonna keep being a little prick and I sure want to conquer him
I think korea is fine as is
 
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Yes to most, I still want Seowon's to come earlier (and be cheaper). There should be :c5production: somewhere for the Seowon, as well, even if just 1 or 2.
Unsure on Indonesia. I liked the current Indonesia changes, wouldn't know how to change them, but still want QoL changes.
 

Cool2002

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 30, 2005
Messages
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I have not read all the threads these changes come from so I don't get all the rationale or point of view entirely.
Like the Songhai UU for example if it is too strong why not just lower it's stats in someway or make it more hammers?
I think there should be UUs spread throughout the eras of the game. I know it is good but early attacks are kinda their niche

Some civs I don't play with and have no insight on because I don't like their bonuses (America, Brazil, Korea, etc) but the game does need different approaches.
Like I find Polynesia really strange but there are 43 civs after all; some need to be weird even if they are clearly weaker.

Saying that I'm kinda against most of the buffs quin trireme, Indonesia stuff, and Siam UU seem really overboard to me.
Some things like the Iroquois longhouse sharing herbalist +1P on camps are easy though.
But I also don't feel strongly enough to argue with anyone; so I'll just see what happens....
 

pineappledan

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@Cool2002 The Indonesia change would actually be a bit of a nerf overall. The UB especially would be much weaker with the changes. I just don't find the current Indonesia much fun, because it's a ton of stacking %-based global modifiers, from both the changed monopoly resources and from the Candi:
Current monopoly bonus , plus Candi bonus:
9:c5happy:, 10% :c5production: 10% :c5culture: 20%:c5faith:,
9:c5happy:, 10% :c5production: 35% :c5culture: 45%:c5faith:, during WLTKD with the Candi

The proposed change's combined Candi + monopoly bonuses would be:
9:c5happy:, +5:c5food: on pepper tiles, 15:c5production:%
9:c5happy:, +5:c5food: on pepper tiles, 15:c5production:% 15% :c5culture:, 15%:c5faith:

so I guess you could say it's a comparison between 5%:c5production: on empire, and 5:c5food:food on a resource vs. 20%:c5culture: and 30%:c5faith: on empire.
 
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KlHannibal2

Warlord
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
229
Good reasoning!
They were, yes. The big difference is that the new UA would boost ALL luxury resource monopolies, not just the special Indonesian ones. It works like the existing Colonialism policy in Imperialism.

Indonesia gets 6:c5happy: from cloves, 3:c5food: on tiles from Pepper, and +10%:c5production: on empire from Nutmeg, but with the UA boosting ALL monopolies, they actually get 9:c5happy:, +5:c5food: on tile, and +15%:c5production:, but they also boost things like Tea and Whales in the same way.

The current unique resource monopolies for Cloves/Pepper/Nutmeg are a lot stronger than normal monopoly resources, which makes Indonesia even more rewarding to conquer. With the stronger monopolies tied to the UA, Indonesia has a second ability that compliments the resource spawning, while keeping the monopolies standard for would-be invaders
 

chicorbeef

Emperor
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Dec 26, 2017
Messages
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I'd be willing to try most all the changes here, I just don't like Brazil's (no freshwater access is equally as arbitrary as the current restriction but is more variable and I don't think Brazil needs the buff) and Korea's (I really like the Seowon unlocking at Philosophy, and I prefer the Great People bonus over the proposed bonuses).
 

ridjack

King
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Mar 12, 2017
Messages
999
I'd be willing to try most all the changes here, I just don't like Brazil's (no freshwater access is equally as arbitrary as the current restriction but is more variable and I don't think Brazil needs the buff) and Korea's (I really like the Seowon unlocking at Philosophy, and I prefer the Great People bonus over the proposed bonuses).

Most, if not all, of these changes are available to be tested in Pdan's tweaks mod.
 

Vhozite

Warlord
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Dec 18, 2019
Messages
139
Read though all the changes and voted on the ones I care about. Some additional comments:

1. Mongols: Would the AI know how to use the Khan mobile citadel damage? In my games the AI doesn’t typically keep GG’s near enough to the action to use this.

2. England: ok change, but hugely against the loss of the extra spy. Would rather have the spy and less yields for more engaging gameplay.

3. Zulu: In favor of everything but losing the passive XP gain. Getting a bunch of super promoted units is one of the main things that makes Shaka fun.

4. Iroquois: Natural wonder buff can definitely go since it basically never matters. However I like that’s it’s a unique, tile dependent promotion. I think instead of removing it we should go in the opposite direction and make it super strong because of how rare getting it will be. If it still feels out of place then I’d go ahead and just remove it.

5. Songhai: MC’s to Knight is an effective nerf. However I also agree with the concern that there is getting to be too many Knight replacements. I also like that Horsemen MC’s keep Askia scary early on. Bottom line, if his UU is over performing that much I’d rather it just be toned down a bit in his it’s current era. His UA already makes normal mounted formidable, so his unique Calvary don’t need to be that much stronger than normal to be really strong.
 

pineappledan

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1. Mongols: Would the AI know how to use the Khan mobile citadel damage? In my games the AI doesn’t typically keep GG’s near enough to the action to use this.
If you keep your khans in the back line they will be surrounded by more of your own units. If you bring them closer up, the Khan will be surrounded by a mix of your own units and enemy units. Khan gives 10 healing to friendly units and 10 damage to enemy units, so placement is more free, but keeping them back for more healing is a valid choice. It might be considered more AI-friendly, since this frees the Khan's placement options up, since you're no longer focused on maximizing the healing exclusively.
 

pineappledan

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Update on where we stand on the polls as of Sunday morning
Spoiler :

America change from 1 standalone wonder to 3 Venice-style ones:
18 - Yes
4 - No​

Mongol Changes, removing 1 of its 2 Tribute demand bonuses, and adding a unique GP tile to the Khan:
15 - Yes to both the UA and Khan change
3 - Yes for only the Khan Change
4 - No to both​

England White tower base UB change to Ironworks:
12 - Yes
6 - No​

Indonesia addition of stronger Monopoly bonuses, Building resource bonuses for Garden, and Mystic Blade promotion rework:
15 - Yes to all 3
3 - No to all
3 - Yes to only the Mystic Blade promotion changes
1 - Yes to the UA/UB/UResource changes only​

Maya Atlatl Strike nerf:
13 - Yes
4 - No​

Zulu change, adding stronger tributing to UA, removing free XP from Iklwa, and making the Impi's bonus vs gunpowder stay on upgrade:
13 - Yes to all
4 - Yes to removing free XP from Iklwa only
2 - Yes to making the Impi's bonus vs gunpowder stay on upgrade only
1 - No to all​

India changes, adding Barrage 1 to Naga Malla has a promotion that stays on upgrade, and taking the Flood Plains bonus off the Harrapan Reservoir:
6 - Yes to Both
6 - Yes to adding Barrage 1 to Naga Malla only
3 - No to Both​

Iroquois Changes, removing the Natural wonder combat bonus from their UA, adding production to camps to the longhouse, and adding Woodsman to Mohawk Warriors:
13 - Yes to all
4 - Yes to adding production to longhouses only
2 - No to all​

Siam changes, increasing their yields from CS to +100%, and adding the General Stacking promotion that stays on upgrade to Siam
14 - Yes to all
1 - No to all
4 - Yes to increasing UA yields only​

Swedish
Carolean changes, moving it back to Fusilier, removing its great general stacking promotion (and giving it to Siam), and increasing the AoE damage from its Grenadier promotion:
9 - Yes to all
1 - Yes to moving it back to Fusiliers
1 - Yes to removing Great General stacking
2 - Yes to buffing Grenadiers
1 - No to all​

Songhai Mandekalu Cavalry change, moving it back to knight:
12 - Yes
5 - No​

Brazilwood Camo build prerequisite change, changing it from forest/no 2 adjacent/luxury adjacent to forest/no 2 adjacent/no freshwater access
12 - Yes
8 - No​

Carthage change, allowing Heavy Assault to carry forward on Upgrade
17 - Yes
3 - No​

Korea Changes, Moving the %GP rate during GAs, moving the Science bonus during GAs to the UA, adding a bonus to GP Tiles to the Seowon, and moving the Seowon unlock back
5 - Yes to both
4 - Yes to the UA and UB bonus changes, except the tech unlock change
8 - No to both​
 

Bruhmoment

Prince
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Update on where we stand on the polls as of Sunday morning
Spoiler :

America change from 1 standalone wonder to 3 Venice-style ones:
18 - Yes
4 - No​

Mongol Changes, removing 1 of its 2 Tribute demand bonuses, and adding a unique GP tile to the Khan:
15 - Yes to both the UA and Khan change
3 - Yes for only the Khan Change
4 - No to both​

England White tower base UB change to Ironworks:
12 - Yes
6 - No​

Indonesia addition of stronger Monopoly bonuses, Building resource bonuses for Garden, and Mystic Blade promotion rework:
15 - Yes to all 3
3 - No to all
3 - Yes to only the Mystic Blade promotion changes
1 - Yes to the UA/UB/UResource changes only​

Maya Atlatl Strike nerf:
13 - Yes
4 - No​

Zulu change, adding stronger tributing to UA, removing free XP from Iklwa, and making the Impi's bonus vs gunpowder stay on upgrade:
13 - Yes to all
4 - Yes to removing free XP from Iklwa only
2 - Yes to making the Impi's bonus vs gunpowder stay on upgrade only
1 - No to all​

India changes, adding Barrage 1 to Naga Malla has a promotion that stays on upgrade, and taking the Flood Plains bonus off the Harrapan Reservoir:
6 - Yes to Both
6 - Yes to adding Barrage 1 to Naga Malla only
3 - No to Both​

Iroquois Changes, removing the Natural wonder combat bonus from their UA, adding production to camps to the longhouse, and adding Woodsman to Mohawk Warriors:
13 - Yes to all
4 - Yes to adding production to longhouses only
2 - No to all​

Siam changes, increasing their yields from CS to +100%, and adding the General Stacking promotion that stays on upgrade to Siam
14 - Yes to all
1 - No to all
4 - Yes to increasing UA yields only​

Swedish
Carolean changes, moving it back to Fusilier, removing its great general stacking promotion (and giving it to Siam), and increasing the AoE damage from its Grenadier promotion:
9 - Yes to all
1 - Yes to moving it back to Fusiliers
1 - Yes to removing Great General stacking
2 - Yes to buffing Grenadiers
1 - No to all​

Songhai Mandekalu Cavalry change, moving it back to knight:
12 - Yes
5 - No​

Brazilwood Camo build prerequisite change, changing it from forest/no 2 adjacent/luxury adjacent to forest/no 2 adjacent/no freshwater access
12 - Yes
8 - No​

Carthage change, allowing Heavy Assault to carry forward on Upgrade
17 - Yes
3 - No​

Korea Changes, Moving the %GP rate during GAs, moving the Science bonus during GAs to the UA, adding a bonus to GP Tiles to the Seowon, and moving the Seowon unlock back
5 - Yes to both
4 - Yes to the UA and UB bonus changes, except the tech unlock change
8 - No to both​
One question, don't you think shoshone need... something changed? They don't have much special
Edit: I just realized - they're the only civ that didn't get its UA changed. At all
 
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pineappledan

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If they do then I have no ideas, and they have no changes in my tweaks mod, thus I would put them there for a couple months before bringing them to the broader community.

But before that, I have seen no enticing, actionable recommendations for changing Shoshone, and I have seen just as many people energetically defend their current kit. So as someone who doesn't really play them, I'll butt out.
 

Bruhmoment

Prince
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Your mom's house
If they do then I have no ideas, and they have no changes in my tweaks mod, thus I would put them there for a couple months before bringing them to the broader community.

But before that, I have seen no enticing, actionable recommendations for changing Shoshone, and I have seen just as many people energetically defend their current kit. So as someone who doesn't really play them, I'll butt out.
It's more of a case like the Iroquois, it's probably not worth changing now, obviously, but later on it'll start to get more obvious.
I mostly ask this question because they're literally the only civ that got NOTHING changed with it's ua. More land and combat bonus, scouts can pick ruins. Same as old UA in BNW
 

pineappledan

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I mostly ask this question because they're literally the only civ that got NOTHING changed with it's ua. More land and combat bonus, scouts can pick ruins. Same as old UA in BNW
Yes it did. The scout bonus used to be only on the pathfinder UU, but is now on any scout line unit. But aside from the UA, their big change from vanilla was getting a UI
 
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