Vassalization could use a little buff or change?

[pza]

I've been watchiching this for a couple of weeks now and i'm thinking (early game) vassal yields in culture and science are a bit too low compared to their maintainance cost. i hardly feel worth keeping them unless they are my only neighbors.
Let's quickly break down the benefits of vassalization (peaceful and war):
+ some science and culture
+ small random military levy each era
+ diplomat in capital
+ open borders
+ safety zone if neighboring
+ eventually policies later on
+ (edit-added: ) vassal has same ideology.

- cost alot of gold to maintain
- might have to defend them, in non-owned territory. usually weak self defense, hence vassal.
- (might cause a stupid war, if their agressors dont consider they'll get into war with the master, too - uncomfirmed theory)
- can still bother you with city(state) captures, settling, stealing land, etc.

while i get like 15 culture and science from vassals (without bonuses) i pay like 50 gold for keeping them, which is a very bad "conversion" ratio imho. of course, that's not the only benefit. So yes, most of the benefits are indirect ones, i feel like vassalizing comes at a too high gold cost for its direct benefits, even when the indirect ones might sound worth it. I can't really show you by numbers, but that's just a feeling i got in the last weeks/months.

So, I'd suggest we could either lower the cost, but that might make vassalization too much of a no brainer with no decision making. And increasing the yields could lead to warmongerers be too powerful in the endgame, with all the policies and stronger vassals.
That's where you guys come in. Maybe your experience might tell what could be done.

 

[76ers]

So, I'd suggest we could either lower the cost, but that might make vassalization too much of a no brainer with no decision making. And increasing the yields could lead to warmongerers be too powerful in the endgame, with all the policies and stronger vassals.
That's where you guys come in. Maybe your experience might tell what could be done.

I'd go the extreme route and remove it completely. Makes warmongering too easy. Warmongers should have to focus on diplomacy somewhat like every other win condition. There should be actual consequences when warmongering when you get sanctioned. Maintenance cost is easily offset by the ability to trade techs to them without risk of negative consequence. Maybe I'm overlooking something but I don't see how it benefits the AI at all. Which seems contrary to what is usually considered worthwhile in the mod.

 

[Enginseer]

https://civ-5-cbp.wikia.com/wiki/Vassalage

Maintenance Cost is offset by the fact that you can tax them at a cost of rebellion.

Having a vassal means one less civ to worry about war and diplomacy(unless you're in a tense situation already with them).

On the other hand, it is in the AI's best interest to vassal whenever possible if the enemy cities just aren't worth capturing.

You apply huge religious pressure, have one free spy to not use on them, and they will always be locked toward your ideology despite being "I want to be freedom, but you're an autocrat"

Don't forget you also get free happiness from the amount of vassal's population.

Also having a vassal reduce your chance of getting war declared on by the AI. The AI now reconsiders your strength from your now-added vassal's proximity and strength.

However the diplomatic penalty scales really hard as you attain more and more vassals. 1 Vassal usually means nothing, but 2 or more can really start building up to a free denouncement penalty(without them having to denounce you).

Besides you were really lucky when you weren't here when vassal was in a really bad shape. I lobbied for so many improvements to the system since I was the only one mainly intending to get capitulations and vassalizations.

 

[pza]

The diplomatic malus is rather small on standard map size, compared to the huge malus you get from conquering a dozen or more cities in order to get multiple vassals. you'll have like -40 from vassals and -250 from warmonger.

I added the ideology to the positives, but that affects only the late game again, in which vassals are "fine" to have.

My point is, if you somehow have about, say, 100 gold income, and pay 50 for vassals, that means you can only buy half that many buildings and units, upgrade half of your units, etc. . It gets worse, the less gold you have to spend. And gold is worth a lot as a warmonger (which is a reason why askia's pain train is so powerful).

So when i'm in medieval or renaissance, and i really don't care about safety in that region (since the potential vassal is likely to be weak or behind), why would i vassalize if that means giving up potential unit upgrades or development speed? the diplomat hardly matters in the early/midgame. The religious pressure can be useless if the vassal doesn't like it and even if it's not mitigated, it takes a long time to be of any use, if at all. So the only reason i'd vassalize, is, if i want to save time and have to conquer someone behind him, which effectively means i'm paying a good amount of gold for forced open borders.

 

[Enginseer]

My point is, if you somehow have about, say, 100 gold income, and pay 50 for vassals, that means you can only buy half that many buildings and units, upgrade half of your units, etc. . It gets worse, the less gold you have to spend. And gold is worth a lot as a warmonger (which is a reason why askia's pain train is so powerful).

So when i'm in medieval or renaissance, and i really don't care about safety in that region (since the potential vassal is likely to be weak or behind), why would i vassalize if that means giving up potential unit upgrades or development speed? the diplomat hardly matters in the early/midgame. The religious pressure can be useless if the vassal doesn't like it and even if it's not mitigated, it takes a long time to be of any use, if at all. So the only reason i'd vassalize, is, if i want to save time and have to conquer someone behind him, which effectively means i'm paying a good amount of gold for forced open borders.

What is Tax? If you don't want to pay for the maintenance, then start taxing them to space.

The religion pressure is definitely important if you're a founder and want religion dominance.

 

[Blue Ghost]

In my opinion, the biggest advantage of vassalage is the removal of the military threat from the civ. Sure, you might rather annex all their cities, but that could require more resources than you’re willing to expend, or simply be beyond your present ability. Without vassalage, your only options would be either to prolong a costly war, or make peace and risk them counterattacking at an inopportune time. Making a defeated foe a vassal seals your victory and frees up your military for other purposes. The science and culture bonuses are just the cherry on top.

Also, I’ve found that vassals are extremely powerful for the diplomatic victory. Your vassal is required to vote you for world leader, and since they have to adopt your ideology, they get the same bonus votes from World Ideology as you do. Even a weak vassal can easily contribute 20 votes toward the diplomatic victory.

 

[chicorbeef]

I'd go the extreme route and remove it completely. Makes warmongering too easy. Warmongers should have to focus on diplomacy somewhat like every other win condition. There should be actual consequences when warmongering when you get sanctioned. Maintenance cost is easily offset by the ability to trade techs to them without risk of negative consequence. Maybe I'm overlooking something but I don't see how it benefits the AI at all. Which seems contrary to what is usually considered worthwhile in the mod.

You can disable vassals if you want. I like vassalage though, I think it's more a quality of life improvement than anything and the AI uses vassals plenty. I don't think they're all that OP considering vassals require conquest.

As for the original post:
The cost is offset by the free yields, ability to trade even when sanctioned and ability to tax them. You don't have to pay for the maintenance of their buildings either.
For the self-defence if you don't vassalize and instead conquer them you still have to defend that territory.

Vassals can't drag you into stupid wars because you can't declare war directly on a vassal.

 

[pza]

The cost is offset by the free yields, ability to trade even when sanctioned and ability to tax them. You don't have to pay for the maintenance of their buildings either.
For the self-defence if you don't vassalize and instead conquer them you still have to defend that territory.

Vassals can't drag you into stupid wars because you can't declare war directly on a vassal.

The cost is not offset by the free yields. At least you dont get close to your moneys worth.
The ability to trade when sanctioned is basically useless in practice because
a) internal trade is almost always better than trading with losing civs when warmongering (pump up new city acquisitions)
b) you have little control over your vassals territory (or the land between yours and his) and his happiness, so barbs could spawn, enemies could roam.
c) there are city states to trade with, too.

everyone seems to be forgetting that taxing them equals making them unstable. they'll flip on you in a breeze and then you'll have to diverge your attention again, losing trades, caravans, archaeologists, whatnot. and for what? half their cost?
And of course you don't directly pay their buildings. But indirectly. The more they grow, the more you pay.
And I KNOW they can't be target of declarations of war. But i'm pretty sure the AI knows how to attack a vassal via declaring on you, and thats where stupidity kicks in. I had that a couple of times, with troops at their borders, none at mine.

Imo vassalization should be the go-to decision to peace deals when
a) the vassal still has functioning core cities, but fears your power, so you exploit him.
b) their remaining land is horrible to wage war in.
c) you're merciful to the weak. bah.

b) and c) are clearly situations i would be ok with, if vassalization came at a price. But you vassalize the tech leader for example, i'd really expect some serious yields for my money!

 

[CrazyG]

Exactly how much does it cost? How is it calculated?