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Veneti ships
- Thread starter cemo1956
- Start date
Strange developments on this thread. Maybe CivFan could use the services of Wikileaks?
Those ancient Veneti ships have always intrigued me. Mainly because so little is now known about them.
Certainties were:
They had higher sides than the Roman warships facing them.
They relied upon sails and not oars in battle.
They had rigging to these sails that was easily cut by opposing warships (the Romans did this to them in battle to make the ships unmanageable and defeat them, according to Roman written history).
As far as I know, none of these ships have been recovered archaeologically and there are no existent, contemporary pictorial representations of them.
I hardly dare answer on my own thread after all this mess.
But these words from scratchthepitch is mostly correct. The ship H.Balck show picture of has oars so it´s not perhaps the correct.
Now if I asked about Model or Units are to debate surely.
I was asking if any ship that could look similar to (what no one knows for sure) a Venetii Ship that battled against the romans. Many has been suggested and I´m happy for that. My direct view and opinion should be H-Blacks ship WITHOUT the oars could be a good model to build a unit from.
If anyone thinks that a Venetii ship doesn´t exist in the HUGE unit list and that someone has the ability and skills to create such a unit, then I would be more than happy.
In the beginning I was just looking for a better develop line for ships to civs from the North of Europe. Then even the Venetii ship was only used by these people on the French coast what do I know.
Let everyones imagination flow and lets see if someone creates something for everyone to enjoy.
I rest my case....
Back in the day, Aluminium did a conversion of this ship from AoE2:
Which you can find here.
I've used it as an Etruscan transport and seem to remember it was a little bigger than other ships....not sure if you're looking for that attribute.
Well perhaps I should say that I like using this ship if nothing else and better pops up.
aaglo did a cog ship, which also might fit the bill - though you'll have to delete attack b as it's cannon fire, though attack a is arrows. There's no oars on this one and it's close to the picture you posted.
The link is here. I just noticed that I made the first reply when this was posted back in 2004!!
The link is here. I just noticed that I made the first reply when this was posted back in 2004!!
If I remember well, the cog has a raised bow and stern and wouldn't fit very well, it's more a medieval ship.
Can this page help you?
Can this page help you?
It has got a raised bow and stern to be fair, but it might be suitable - it depends on what Cemo thinks is the best fit based on the units available. I still think that the light transport is probably better myself. Might be worth him having a glance at the ship on the link. If nothing else, it might be an upgrade from the Venetti ship...
As an aside, it would be wonderful to get aaglo out of unit-making retirement - making this ship on pov-ray would have been right up his street!!
The Cog must come later in the development, like after the Viking Age.
The Normans crossed the English Channel in ships looking like the Viking longboats, so for Northern Civs I think the Venetii Ship should be long before the longboats. Liburnians galleys perhaps for the Romans at the same time.
This Venetii ship should perhaps be pre Longboats and then after the Venetii we have the Cog.
Since ship making is very different for north and south Europe all the way up to 14-15C it´s
anybody guess how to have the ship development, but it should be different IMHO just like the Asian ship development.
Beside these Cog, and venetii ships we couold think of Knarrs that probably preseeded the Cog as a cargo ship and the Roundship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_transports_in_the_Middle_Ages
If the Venetii Ships should be transports or warships or a combination is a question too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_ships
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic-era_warship
nick0515
C7 Fanatic
Um why didn't you just use 'subscribe to this thread' in the thread tools?
MarineCorps
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Blue Monkey
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Speaking only for myself, I do it to let people know I'm interested in a thread & want to contribute something further on when I'm able to. A lot of times I don't see where to creatively contribute to a project until it's been going on a while. By giving a tiny nudge of visible encouragement instead of just lurking I'm letting them know that there's at least one more person that shares their interests.
Moderator Action: Since some people apparently can't get subtle message, when in a heated thread, another moderator publicly says he is subscribing to the post, it means it would get additional attention in case one of us is off duty. Capice now?
Further to this, what would go in-between the Cog and the Caravel? Maybe a 'Hulk'? I don't think we have a unit for something like that, although we do have a bunch of Mediterranean oar-driven ships from around the same time, yes?
scratchthepitch
King
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- Feb 13, 2010
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I wrote a long post speculating what these Venetii and Roman ships would have been like, but hit the wrong key and viola, it was gone. And lunch was over.
I basically agree with cemo1956. Ships like cogs and longboats are much later than the time period of the Venetii, as much as a 1000 years in fact. The culture which made these later ships are also different from the Venetii. The Venetii predate much of the Germanic influx into France and were Celtic in culture. It is likely their ships would be different also. The Germanic ships of the time were oared vessels of low freeboard, used for coastal transport and built of a dugout log keel core with several planks building up the sides of the boat. They were not decked and not suitable for fighting other ships. They were large, low lying boats.
The descriptions of the Venetii ships describe a very different style of vessel. Higher sides than the Roman types opposing it and relying upon sails exclusively. Since the Venetii were Celt, and the water they plied was the channel and western France, rougher seas were to be expected. But also, since the area had a lot of shallows, a deep draft would be a detriment. This implies a wide beam (to stabilize for the masts and sails and carry a worthwhile load) and later vessels of the region had wide beams, so it is likely the Venetii ships did also.
The pictorial examples shown by the other posters on this topic probably all could serves as a useful representation of these Venetii ships, at Civ scales, since you don't see a lot of detail.
The Roman ships were probably more like boats. Liburnians as cemo1956 stated, is probably close to what they were, small single or double banked oar vessels, nothing like as massive as the typical Roman Med. war galley at that time was. This would be because the ships had to be built locally, using local technique. By this I mean using oak rather than pine, clinker rather than carvel construction style and they were probably built by army legion engineers, more accustomed to building rafts and boats for crossing rivers instead of shipwrights who built all manner of ships.
This is an interesting thread (I'm a ship buff), let's discuss the ships and drop all the other drama, on all sides, OK?
In or out of the can?
I believe it's the carrack
Goldflash
Grumpy Old Man
The Carrack in between the Cog and Caravel? Negatory. The Carrack and Caravel are contemporaries.
scratchthepitch
King
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- Feb 13, 2010
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The carrack design stemmed from cogs. Cog is just sort of a catch all name for a multitude of sea going ships during the middle ages and these differed by region and time from each other quite a bit in detail. Same with the later carrack. The hulk was basically a North Sea/Baltic local type of the carrack types I believe. The caravel developed from the fishing vessels used off Iberia and was closely related to North African vessels (a legacy of the Moors) and represents a different development line from cogs and carracks. Eventually carrack and caravel converged enough that it became hard to tell a small carrack apart from a large caravel. I believe this convergence eventually produced the galleon type.
A good pictorial source for the carrack and later smaller types is the Anthony Anthony Roll. This source has the pictures of the ships on those documents:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anthony_Roll
I'm not sure all the ships on the second role were galleasses. It's doubtful the ships with cannons depicted close to the waterline would have a bank of oars. It is possible some of these are descendants of caravels. These pictures show the ship types of about a century after cogs became carracks and carrack types were soon after this time to be replaced by galleon types. A lot less is known about the smaller types on the 3rd roll and their origins since they were support ships.
A good pictorial source for the carrack and later smaller types is the Anthony Anthony Roll. This source has the pictures of the ships on those documents:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anthony_Roll
I'm not sure all the ships on the second role were galleasses. It's doubtful the ships with cannons depicted close to the waterline would have a bank of oars. It is possible some of these are descendants of caravels. These pictures show the ship types of about a century after cogs became carracks and carrack types were soon after this time to be replaced by galleon types. A lot less is known about the smaller types on the 3rd roll and their origins since they were support ships.
YES the Holk or Hulk (not the Incredible Hulk or so)
someone made this long time ago, BUT it was truly just a copy of the Caravel with some alterations to the civ-colored sails.
This is what I found on Total War:
Constructed with strong and durable oak, the Holk is an 11th century development of the Cog. It can hold and carry more soldiers for added defence and has a fore and aft castle added, giving the archers a better firing platform, as well as a place to mount small artillery, enhancing its already deadly capabilities.
Sounds good to me.
This ship like the Venetii hasn´t been made either. So the Northern Europeans have a great gaps in their shipdevelopments.
Hopefully someone will correct this over the near future.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(medieval_ship_type)
