Venice discussion

[JSMCAG]

Looking at that fort, I wonder what happens to Feitoras when Venice takes a city-state - I assume they get destroyed, but it might be funny if they actually stayed

From the Rev3Game's Tour into Firaxis office, we noticed on the white board that, when the tile beneath the Feitoria changes owner, the Feitoria does so to.
What this means is that, after being built, it belongs to Portugal. Once the City-State is conquered, the Feitoria is no longer Portugal's, and likely it now belongs to the civilization that took the City-State (unless it's another City-State that conquered?). Since the Feitoria is no longer inside a City-State, it now provides Portugal no Luxury Resources, and since it now belongs to the civilization that conquered(/bought) the City-State, it can safely be removed.

That's my take on it, anyway - and I'd say it's what makes most sense!

 

[chrisjwmartin]

8 Venices and 41 CSs on a Standard map. Let hilarity ensue.

My plan is 2 Venices and 41 CSs on a Huge map. It'll probably be the 20th century before we meet each other. I can finally be left in peace to build my magnificent wunder-city.

 

[Ryoga]

My plan is 2 Venices and 41 CSs on a Huge map. It'll probably be the 20th century before we meet each other. I can finally be left in peace to build my magnificent wunder-city.

Unless you turn barbarian off that will be a barbarian fest And nobody would even ever be able to stomp them out. The world will be theirs.

 

[sliverius]

Here are the differences

Austria's advantages
-Can buy CS at will, making money in the late game is a lot faster than getting great persons.
-Can use great merchants to get more money, doesn't need to spend them, or it can focus on other great persons.
-Can still found cities, so it doesn't rely on neighbors as much as Venice does.
-Can annex the CS thus being able to use them to build stuff including wonders.

Venice advantages:
-Doesn't need to be allied with a CS to "buy" it, it can get it right away.
-Can buy a CS a lot earlier, Austria will take a while to build an economy strong enough to do so, or it will need to waste a lot of early money/resources that can be used better in other ways.
-Can buy stuff on puppets, and there are advantages in having puppets rather than annexed cities, Venice will be able to get more policies.

about "Can buy a CS a lot earlier, Austria will take a while to build an economy strong enough to do so, or it will need to waste a lot of early money/resources that can be used better in other ways."
i have tried the Austria, in King mode, i could buy CS before the merchant spawn.
Austria can acquisition CS a lot faster than Venice.

although, Venice can buy after research optic, that is faster than Austria, but spawning merchant is not that fast.
Venice acquisition is arithmetically increase requirement, Austria, not

 

[tomtom5858]

about "Can buy a CS a lot earlier, Austria will take a while to build an economy strong enough to do so, or it will need to waste a lot of early money/resources that can be used better in other ways."
i have tried the Austria, in King mode, i could buy CS before the merchant spawn.
Austria can acquisition CS a lot faster than Venice.

although, Venice can buy after research optic, that is faster than Austria, but spawning merchant is not that fast.
Venice acquisition is arithmetically increase requirement, Austria, not

Look at this line a bit more closely: "waste a lot of early money/resources that can be used better in other ways.". Your city-states don't matter if you have absolutely no army. Someone will simply come and conquer them away from you.

 

[Bakspatel]

although, Venice can buy after research optic, that is faster than Austria, but spawning merchant is not that fast.
Venice acquisition is arithmetically increase requirement, Austria, not

Venice can get three merchants in a short time, through Optics and the Liberty tree. That should give it quite a nice boost to build up an empire.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

So the Liberty Settler policy gives a MOV instead. Does it also give +50% mov generation in the capital (just like the Liberty policy gives +50% settler generation)?

If yes, or if it even gives a smaller bonus (like +25% generation), Liberty is Venice's choice number one, especially if Legalism still doesn't give puppets buildings (it pretty much renders a policy useless).

Anyone knows the answer to this? Does the policy also help generate those MoVs, or does it only give one?

Other awesome choice is Piety. You can most likely get Pagodas in the puppets, because Pagodas are bought. Not to mention CS's constantly love building piety buildings, so getting Piety will help them construct them faster.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

So the Liberty Settler policy gives a MOV instead. Does it also give +50% mov generation in the capital (just like the Liberty policy gives +50% settler generation)?

If yes, or if it even gives a smaller bonus (like +25% generation), Liberty is Venice's choice number one, especially if Legalism still doesn't give puppets buildings (it pretty much renders a policy useless).

Anyone knows the answer to this? Does the policy also help generate those MoVs, or does it only give one?

Other awesome choice is Piety. You can most likely get Pagodas in the puppets, because Pagodas are bought.

Probably not.. Venice probably just has something allowing it to have any settlers that would be given (beyond the first)to be converted into MoV. (So Deity AI starts/Advanced era starts/Ruin Settlers on Settler difficulty).. there is Probably no specific effect for the liberty policy, it just falls into the things that would give Venice a Settler.

 

[Scaramanga]

Considering that with a MoV you can get a fairly developed city while with a settler you have to start with no buildings at pop 0, the Liberty policy is not that bad with just a free Shylock for Venice.

 

[sliverius]

Venice can get three merchants in a short time, through Optics and the Liberty tree. That should give it quite a nice boost to build up an empire.

I am hesitate to take Liberty if I play Venice , since the bonus is not so big, it just one time bonus 3 Merchant.

i want to ask, is policy affect to puppet also? or only founded city or annexed?

 

[ggmoyang]

Unless you turn barbarian off that will be a barbarian fest And nobody would even ever be able to stomp them out. The world will be theirs.

Let's convert them with our missionaries then!

 

[A Rabid Dopsis]

I am hesitate to take Liberty if I play Venice , since the bonus is not so big, it just one time bonus 3 Merchant.

i want to ask, is policy affect to puppet also? or only founded city or annexed?

Liberty may be the better policy overall. The culture, production and happiness boosts in this policy all apply to puppets. You do lose the reduction in policy cost increase for new cities though.

Tradition obviously loses 3 free culture buildings but all other bonuses remain intact.

I think, in deciding between the two, it's a matter of just how important those extra two merchants are.

 

[Louis XXIV]

You can always finish liberty and then go for tradition. The free cultural buildings will probably be better as well.

 

[ggmoyang]

I still speculate tradition would be better.
Trade units aren't cheap. (Caravan: 75 Cargo ship: 150) Venice has to build twice of them in only one city. And Venice needs national wonder too. But puppets increase the cost of National wonders.

 

[e3do]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but is it possible to get the Merchant of Venice via Educated Elite like the Khan?

 

[Browd]

Should be able to. MoV is a Great Merchant variation, just as a Kahn is a GG.

 

[Ryoga]

I've just been wondering about something quite important regarding Venice.

What kind of victory is this civ best suited for?


A scientific victory would be slower and harder to achieve than with other civs, and not only because puppets have a 25% penalty on science, but mainly because the capital will have to build all the spaceship parts by itself. I have confirmed through the xml that spaceship parts are still unavailable for purchase.

A diplomatic victory is somehow antithetic to Venice's unique ability. Puppetting city states has the effect of reducing the number of city states in the game, which leads to more competition and a harder acquisition of side votes. This still looks like one of the best viable option for Venice given the fact that it's a civ with a strong economy, but it's ironic that you'll end up getting in your own way.

A domination victory certainly isn't out of the question and with the ability to buy on puppets you can still build happiness buildings, units and what you need in order to keep waging your wars. However Venice is tailored around trade, and too many wars might end up crippling its economic options.

A cultural victory is still possible but right now what matters is no longer the number of policies but the production of tourism. Buildings, which are the only thing that you can buy in puppets, do not produce any tourism. What you want are improvement that yeild culture, great works and wonders, and in a puppet you can neither build a wonder nor have the ability to decide to work landmarks, nor the option to place great works.
Venice will have to rely on its capital, which makes the path to cultural victory harder compared to other civs.

So which is, in your opinion, the easier option for Venice to win. Which path would you rather take?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I plan to do a Culture game because:

A) You can build all the National Wonders very easily

B) Buying up city-states will provide a variety of themed artifacts for the various theming bonuses

C) Venice has enough Trade Routes to make money AND generate ridiculous production bonuses in the city itself for Wonder spamming.

PS: Hotels & Airports are buildings that generate Tourism

 

[Ryoga]

PS: Hotels & Airports are buildings that generate Tourism

I thought that they only convert culture into tourism, and not all culture.

 

[Calouste]

I've just been wondering about something quite important regarding Venice.

What kind of victory is this civ best suited for?


A scientific victory would be slower and harder to achieve than with other civs, and not only because puppets have a 25% penalty on science, but mainly because the capital will have to build all the spaceship parts by itself. I have confirmed through the xml that spaceship parts are still unavailable for purchase.

A diplomatic victory is somehow antithetic to Venice's unique ability. Puppetting city states has the effect of reducing the number of city states in the game, which leads to more competition and a harder acquisition of side votes. This still looks like one of the best viable option for Venice given the fact that it's a civ with a strong economy, but it's ironic that you'll end up getting in your own way.

A domination victory certainly isn't out of the question and with the ability to buy on puppets you can still build happiness buildings, units and what you need in order to keep waging your wars. However Venice is tailored around trade, and too many wars might end up crippling its economic options.

A cultural victory is still possible but right now what matters is no longer the number of policies but the production of tourism. Buildings, which are the only thing that you can buy in puppets, do not produce any tourism. What you want are improvement that yeild culture, great works and wonders, and in a puppet you can neither build a wonder nor have the ability to decide to work landmarks, nor the option to place great works.
Venice will have to rely on its capital, which makes the path to cultural victory harder compared to other civs.

So which is, in your opinion, the easier option for Venice to win. Which path would you rather take?

You can purchase space ship parts if you pick a certain tenet from the Freedom ideology. And in any case, research is usually more the bottleneck for a space victory than production.

I think Venice is going to be excellent for a cultural victory. Just pump production and food from your puppets to your capital with the trade routes you have spare, and you can build your pick of World Wonders. And you only need the prerequisite building in Venice to build any National Wonders. I don't expect to build anything but Wonders in Venice after the Classical era, I'll just buy everything else.