Venice

[janat08]

Okay, I still need to be inquisitive - is the penalty present for non-Venice cities as puppets? (That is, if I puppet a city as NOT Venice, do my research costs go up? I mean I sure hope not if the yield penalty is 50%, because that's a step short of useless with a penalty to boot.)

I belief vanilla wiki or what have you will describe that venice is indeed unique in it's puppets not counting towards research/culture costs.

All that I like about venice is that you only have to control one city.

 

[ashendashin]

Oh - how interesting! I didn't know this. So that IS a change from Vanilla. In other words - if I'm playing tall, Puppets will complement my sci/culture and give me techs or policies more quickly because the puppets aren't increasing the costs; BUT I need sufficient happiness to keep things together because they won't have the proper infrastructure. Does this sound about right? (And then I can just Raze them if I don't like them anymore - yes, I know this isn't optimal strategy, but sometimes just playing tall and not having to worry about acquiring higher tech requirements that never go away is a nice thing to know.) Just making sure I understand the situation.

Yeah you got it. That 50% penalty just doesn't look worth it to me unless I want a resource or just the position of the city.

 

[Gidoza]

Yeah you got it. That 50% penalty just doesn't look worth it to me unless I want a resource or just the position of the city.

Cool. I'm going to have a little fun in my next game then by experimenting with more puppets as a tall civ - I'm usually annexing or razing, but with a science penalty not applying civ-wide on a puppet, the potential here has suddenly become so much more appealing. Thank you!

 

[Blue Ghost]

How will the changes to unit XP affect Venice? Now that purchased units only get half XP, Venice would need to build units only in the capital if they want the full XP. I can see that hurting Venice’s ability to war.

 

[Gidoza]

How will the changes to unit XP affect Venice? Now that purchased units only get half XP, Venice would need to build units only in the capital if they want the full XP. I can see that hurting Venice’s ability to war.

I would agree that Venice seems like an appropriate exception to the rule because it's supposed to function as an exception to...everything...

 

[ashendashin]

How will the changes to unit XP affect Venice? Now that purchased units only get half XP, Venice would need to build units only in the capital if they want the full XP. I can see that hurting Venice’s ability to war.

Not much. I'll just buy more landsknechts for more gold to spam with.

 

[Gidoza]

Not much. I'll just buy more landsknechts for more gold to spam with.

TBH I have a feeling that the change isn't going to affect ANY civ, really. I anticipate that if I really need units, I'll just purchase them wherever I need them - and 5 melee combats isn't really that much in the objective scope of things. In other words, I'm anticipating that this won't actually change anything other than that everyone's military will start with less experience points, which means that everyone will be on par with one another, which means nothing has changed...

 

[janat08]

So I fail to see whatever the gold is good for as everything is capped, and then on top of that trade routes will render advantages to other nations, no wonder this is a "conquest" nation.

 

[CrazyG]

So I fail to see whatever the gold is good for as everything is capped, and then on top of that trade routes will render advantages to other nations, no wonder this is a "conquest" nation.

Most experienced players seem to think that gold is too strong or at least borderline too strong in the latest patch. I'd play more before you pass these judgements

 

[tu_79]

So I fail to see whatever the gold is good for as everything is capped, and then on top of that trade routes will render advantages to other nations, no wonder this is a "conquest" nation.

Venice can invest gold in her puppets. It cuts the cost of that building in half, so puppets can develop as if they were proper cities, but most importantly, once invested, the building gets priority, so you can guide how every city develops.
If not only for this, gold is very useful for:
+ investing in wonders cuts only 25%, but it can make you win the wonder race.
+ instant diplo units, changing the result of any world congress session.
+ instant garrison, if you are caught off-guard, this helps a bit.
+ upgrade army, for those high level units, never lose them.
+ dealing with other civs, get your hands on luxuries, strategic resources or simply make friends.
+ rushing an army, sometimes you want to surprise a neighbour.

People value hammers 2:1 vs gold, but gold has many other uses.

 

[pineappledan]

In the latest patch Venice's ability to generate GPP from puppets was disabled, so it can only generate GPPs in the capital.

In light of this, would it be fair to increase the % GP boost on 1 or both of Venice's unique wonders?
ie. could increase Piazzo San Marco to +50% GPP rate (currently 33%)
or Could set Piazza San Marco to +35%, and give another +15%GPP to Rialto/Arsenale/Murano

I'm interested to hear if the recent changes are strongly felt by Venice. It might not be worth troubling over, but I'm interested to hear people's responses after they've played a venice game

 

[ashendashin]

In the latest patch Venice's ability to generate GPP from puppets was disabled, so it can only generate GPPs in the capital.

In light of this, would it be fair to increase the % GP boost on 1 or both of Venice's unique wonders?
ie. could increase Piazzo San Marco to +50% GPP rate (currently 33%)
or Could set Piazza San Marco to +35%, and give another +15%GPP to Rialto/Arsenale/Murano

I'm interested to hear if the recent changes are strongly felt by Venice. It might not be worth troubling over, but I'm interested to hear people's responses after they've played a venice game

Haven't played yet but I doubt Venice would need any form of buffs. Now that puppets are happiness neutral they literally have nothing to worry about beyond their enemies.
I guess the Murano could get a big GPP buff for those who really want that sort of game.

 

[pineappledan]

My concern is just that, with the number of guilds reduced from 3 to 1 for venice, it's pretty much impossible for them to accumulate enough GWs for a cultural victory.

It also puts them in a funny situation where there are buildings which literally have no benefit to venice. Guilds and gardens do nothing outside the capital

It's not really afavoured playstyle for them anyways, but it's just funny that venice feels far less flexible with this change. Once again, we'll just have to wait and see

 

[tu_79]

My concern is just that, with the number of guilds reduced from 3 to 1 for venice, it's pretty much impossible for them to accumulate enough GWs for a cultural victory.

It also puts them in a funny situation where there are buildings which literally have no benefit to venice. Guilds and gardens do nothing outside the capital

It's not really afavoured playstyle for them anyways, but it's just funny that venice feels far less flexible with this change. Once again, we'll just have to wait and see

A valid concern, I'd say.

 

[bigcat88]

My concern is just that, with the number of guilds reduced from 3 to 1 for venice, it's pretty much impossible for them to accumulate enough GWs for a cultural victory.

It also puts them in a funny situation where there are buildings which literally have no benefit to venice. Guilds and gardens do nothing outside the capital

It's not really afavoured playstyle for them anyways, but it's just funny that venice feels far less flexible with this change. Once again, we'll just have to wait and see

And what about their maintenance? If they do nothing and just cut gold per turn...
And previously Venice was great for spawning Merchants Of Venice in all cities - that was the main key to victory. In last patch they can spawn only in capitol?

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Honestly, can we just end this no-settler nonsense and let Venice have X% more trade-routes and the ability to do more in their puppets?

 

[ElliotS]

Honestly, can we just end this no-settler nonsense and let Venice have X% more trade-routes and the ability to do more in their puppets?

That is 100% a place for a modmod sir. WAAAAY too decisive.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

That is 100% a place for a modmod sir. WAAAAY too decisive.

I'm interested on whether or not "may only generate great people from one city" was intended or unintended for Venice. @Gazebo

 

[void_genesis]

Honestly, can we just end this no-settler nonsense and let Venice have X% more trade-routes and the ability to do more in their puppets?

Another option would be to let merchants of Venice create new city states that count as non-puppet cities. This could also be useful for the times you get no city states nearby on the map. Aren't there spare city state names available in most standard games?

 

[ashendashin]

I'm interested on whether or not "may only generate great people from one city" was intended or unintended for Venice. @Gazebo

He acknowledged it, but stated that the happiness neutral puppets allowed Venice to swim in happiness and played well due to it, so it's not much of a loss.

@void_genesis City-States count as minor civs, which are limited.