EmpireofVirtue
Warlord
Message erased by myself (Don't want to be banned once again).
Versallies: A Flawed Peace
- Thread starter Sarevok
- Start date
Archer 007
Rebirth
Originally posted by Marla_Singer
If the treaties had lapsed, it's not because Wilhelm wanted so but simply because France paid in advance all the "reparations" (reparations for what by the way ?) it had to pay. Well anyway, I'm just a "blind defender of France" so I should stop to talk...
I never called you a blind defender. Your really trying to be objective with some thing that pertains to your own country, and thats rather diffucult for many of us. I say bravo.
Germany had the ability to hold that alliance structure together, it just failed to. Wilhelm also did many other crazy things that help make the pre-WWI world more hostile (like the Battleship Crises).
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
Well I guess you're right Archer. I'm a bit fed up of talking about History... especially about a time I'm so happy we don't live anymore. It's a lot better to live in a peaceful Europe than in the one of just a century sooner. I guess everyone in here will agree with me about the fact World War 1 was dumb. I consider by the way Versailles Treaty was more stupid than flawed. Today, all that is behind us and I'm glad about it. 
PS : I got it Empire, I'll remove the avatar.
PS : I got it Empire, I'll remove the avatar.
Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
indeed it was, WW1 was a completyely stupid war unlike the second world war.
Adler17
Prussian Feldmarschall
WW1 could have been avoided peacefully. Even later in the war it could have been ended a way better than Versailles. But both sides wanted the total victory. Why making peace then? France und UK thought they could stop Germany, even their armies were fighting in allied terrain. They also hoped USA would declare war on Germany as they did in 1917. Both sides had "match balls" during the war so they wanted the big cake.
But later? What should peace look like? There were no real plans which are worthy to note. Only plans which are worthy to be discussed in pubs than in serious circles. When war was over the allied diplomats made the worst decision in Versailles. It was stupid and because of that totally wrong. This lead to Hitler. Mightbe not directly but it helped him very much.
Wilhelm made many mistakes. But I think we can´t blame him for the end of the German- Russian alliance. These alliances Bismarck made were a masterpiece of diplomacy. But he had big troubles with it. A war would have ended this alliance very fast blaming Germany because of the complicated alliances. And in 1877 a war was very likely because Austria and Russia were in quarrel because of the Balcan. So Bismarck played the honest broker to stop their hostilities before a war would happen. He was successfull, but at a longer peiod these alliances hat to break: Russia was disappointed by the conference of Berlin and an eye on Austrian territories, Italy and Austria had a clear border but they also had an eye on Austria. So having these members in one alliance it was not possible to keep them forever. Wilhelm only fastend this. In fact he wanted peace! This might be not credible but it was. He only had dangerous hobbies. Colonies and a strong navy. As long as his beloved randmother Victoria was Queen in England there was no danger. She loved him as her favourite grandson. So he was free to claim a few colonies. And colonial quarrel was never big between Germany and UK. There were never claims to take each others colonies. France was another topic... He could also make the German navy stronger. This was at first also in British interest who were disappointed in 1871 why Germany didn´t take any French colony or the navy! When te French isolation brought because of the end of the Russian alliance, both sides were building more and more ships. This was a danger for Germany being blckaded so Germany wanted to have just as many ships as France and Russia had. As long as Victoria lived there was no problem. But after her death her son became king. He hated his nephew and the alliance with UK broke. So Germany had only Italy and Austria as allies. UK and Germany made an arms race. British diplomats wanted to show the world Germany as a dangerous and not trustworthy player when an embassador came to Germany to talk about the navy strength. But the Germans, even Tirpitz, wanted a pecefull solution with UK and accepted to talk about that. The British diplomat was perplex as he answered very vague and he fastly went back to UK. Germany never wanted UK as enemy. In 1914 the differences seemed to have a fast ending, because both sides wanted to find a peacefull solution. When the shots of Sarajevo were fired Wilhelm made hlidays in Norway. The British ambassador was with him when he got the news. He said in this moment he would have to start to find a peacefull solution. But both countries were caught in alliances with other nations which wanted war.
Wilhelm was indeed much more trgical than a warmonger.
Adler
But later? What should peace look like? There were no real plans which are worthy to note. Only plans which are worthy to be discussed in pubs than in serious circles. When war was over the allied diplomats made the worst decision in Versailles. It was stupid and because of that totally wrong. This lead to Hitler. Mightbe not directly but it helped him very much.
Wilhelm made many mistakes. But I think we can´t blame him for the end of the German- Russian alliance. These alliances Bismarck made were a masterpiece of diplomacy. But he had big troubles with it. A war would have ended this alliance very fast blaming Germany because of the complicated alliances. And in 1877 a war was very likely because Austria and Russia were in quarrel because of the Balcan. So Bismarck played the honest broker to stop their hostilities before a war would happen. He was successfull, but at a longer peiod these alliances hat to break: Russia was disappointed by the conference of Berlin and an eye on Austrian territories, Italy and Austria had a clear border but they also had an eye on Austria. So having these members in one alliance it was not possible to keep them forever. Wilhelm only fastend this. In fact he wanted peace! This might be not credible but it was. He only had dangerous hobbies. Colonies and a strong navy. As long as his beloved randmother Victoria was Queen in England there was no danger. She loved him as her favourite grandson. So he was free to claim a few colonies. And colonial quarrel was never big between Germany and UK. There were never claims to take each others colonies. France was another topic... He could also make the German navy stronger. This was at first also in British interest who were disappointed in 1871 why Germany didn´t take any French colony or the navy! When te French isolation brought because of the end of the Russian alliance, both sides were building more and more ships. This was a danger for Germany being blckaded so Germany wanted to have just as many ships as France and Russia had. As long as Victoria lived there was no problem. But after her death her son became king. He hated his nephew and the alliance with UK broke. So Germany had only Italy and Austria as allies. UK and Germany made an arms race. British diplomats wanted to show the world Germany as a dangerous and not trustworthy player when an embassador came to Germany to talk about the navy strength. But the Germans, even Tirpitz, wanted a pecefull solution with UK and accepted to talk about that. The British diplomat was perplex as he answered very vague and he fastly went back to UK. Germany never wanted UK as enemy. In 1914 the differences seemed to have a fast ending, because both sides wanted to find a peacefull solution. When the shots of Sarajevo were fired Wilhelm made hlidays in Norway. The British ambassador was with him when he got the news. He said in this moment he would have to start to find a peacefull solution. But both countries were caught in alliances with other nations which wanted war.
Wilhelm was indeed much more trgical than a warmonger.
Adler
rilnator
Emperor
What are you on about? All wars are stupid! They cost a lot of money and destroy people's lives.
And don't start up with that 'WW2 needed to be fought' stuff either, I've already seen that thread.
Archer 007
Rebirth
Originally posted by Marla_Singer
Well I guess you're right Archer. I'm a bit fed up of talking about History... especially about a time I'm so happy we don't live anymore. It's a lot better to live in a peaceful Europe than in the one of just a century sooner. I guess everyone in here will agree with me about the fact World War 1 was dumb. I consider by the way Versailles Treaty was more stupid than flawed. Today, all that is behind us and I'm glad about it.
PS : I got it Empire, I'll remove the avatar.
The First World War did have a good effect. It ended the era of mass European warfare before techonology got to a point where the world could be destroyed.
Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
say what you want, WW2 was very neccesary to show the world what its worst side is so it could concentrate on its better side mindful of what it could do to itself.
Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
I believe youre talking about the second world war.
Archer 007
Rebirth
The Second World War was the peak of to what I was refering, but the Second World War would not have came about without the First.
CIVPhilzilla
Reagan Republican
It was idiotic to make a treaty like this, the European countries didn't think that Germany would get revenge and therefore had millions more killed in World War II.
Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
indeed, there is no comparison.
rilnator
Emperor
In hindsight its easy to say that but the treaty deprived Germany of a general staff, tanks, planes and money. All the things you need to fight an offensive war. The treaty wasn't the cause of ww2, Hitler was.
Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
it just helped hitlers case... alot.
Adler17
Prussian Feldmarschall
The treaty caused Hitler and because of that ww2.
Adler
Adler
Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
that is without question.
CIVPhilzilla
Reagan Republican
But, the reason hitler got so much support was due to the fact that the country was in shambles due to what this treaty took away from them. I admit Hitler was a big part, but if this treaty was made to better suit both sides, I feel World War II could have been toned down or possibly avoided.
Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
the great depression helped his casue more than versallies did I think, but the reason the worst of the depression happened in germany was becasue of versallies.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
Versailles Treaty contributed indeed. However, we must realize that at that time, Germany was financially dependant on the USA and that's the main reason why it has been the country the most severly hit by the crisis. Moreover, we shouldn't neglect the influence of the hyper inflation which is the cause of a generalized poverty all across the country.
What can you do when your currency is worthless ? And at the opposite of South American countries, they didn't have any dollar as a back up money.
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