Version 1.7 feedback

[Ahriman]

I think this is because the "has fresh water" check used to look to see if any adjacent tile had fresh water. Now, it only checks is the tile itself has fresh water (aka moisture).

Ah! Ok, so you changed how this worked too. Makes sense.

I think this is the best way forward. I think it would be nice if shallow wells didn't destroy adjacent spice, but since we are using the same fresh water/moisture mechanism to kill spice and boost cottages we can't have it both ways. Just change the iAddsFreshWaterInRadius in ImprovementInfos for Shallow Well from 0 to 1.

Ok. I don't think killing 1 tile of spice is a problem; wells used to be killing radius 2 of spice.

The Tleilaxu player can't build the Charcutery so they already cannot get happy from Slig, only gold - the fluff issue was part of the concept. This is why I suggested we change the AITradeWeight to make them trade it away really easily. (Actually, they can still get some happy if they build the Great Banqueting Hall).

Hmm. I'm a bit suspicious then; a resource whose only benefit comes when you trade it to others and they build a structure?
It seems underpowered, relative to Semuta.
Perhaps there should be a Tleilaxu UB version of the Charcutery that gives gives a small gold bonus?
Also, the Charcutery probably needs to be really really cheap, like 20-30 hammers.

3. The AI seems to build forts on bonus resources outside of cities' BFCs rather than hook them up.

They have always done this. The fort DOES hook them up, so its actually good gameplay.

7. Slig Breeders in Tleilaxu city had zero gold - the are not on good enough terms with anyone to trade it away. AITradeWeight tweak should be tested.

A very interesting problem. Even if they value it at very little, they are still going to have to trade it for something, and they are still probably going to be unwilling to trade a resource away to any other player unless they have positive relations with that player.
We might need to rethink the mechanic; I think a trade-oriented mechanic and an isolationist mechanic might not work well together.

 

[Deliverator]

Now, that we've finally got 1.7.3.2 working in Vista...

Ok. I don't think killing 1 tile of spice is a problem; wells used to be killing radius 2 of spice.

So, we want to make the tweaks:
Shallow Well -> adds moisture in 1-tile radius (rather than zero)
Catchbasin -> adds moisture in 1-tile radius (rather than 2/BFC)

We might need to rethink the mechanic; I think a trade-oriented mechanic and an isolationist mechanic might not work well together.

I think you're right the idea of giving the Tleilaxu an offworld trade good might be fundamentally flawed for this reason. We can either put Slig back in the un-owned pool of Landing Stage picks or remove it completely.

I've also managed to remove the "Dune Wars is running with..." RevDCM popup from game start, and made it so that there is no way to turn on any of the optional Revolutions components (Revolution, BarbarianCiv, Tech Diffusion, DynamicCityNames, Start As Minors) even if you somehow have saved user settings that enable them.

 

[Jester Fool]

First off, I have to say the new art work is outstanding! The art theme is consistent and coming along pretty well. For some reason, the change from tiles showing irrigation to showing moisture just seems 'right' - the new system captures the Dune feel perfectly. I also like the new implementation of the landing stages. IMO, a much better design. Something seems weird concerning the effects of the Semuta Den building though.

Spoiler :

Is this the intended effect? Anyway, just thought I'd give you my first impressions. My expectations for version 1.8 are quite high and your effort is greatly appreciated. Thanks Dune Wars team! I do agree the Dune Encyclopedia needs some loving however.

 

[Jester Fool]

I actually like the 'tech diffusion' component in RevDCM. I still think it is worth keeping in Dune Wars. The other components, which I never use anyway, would probably not be missed. Just my two cents.

 

[Deliverator]

First off, I have to say the new art work is outstanding! The art theme is consistent and coming along pretty well.

Thanks. It has been a challenge to get some kind of consistency with the art but progress is gradually being made.

Something seems weird concerning the effects of the Semuta Den building though.

I'm pretty sure that the buildings are working OK, it's just that there is a display bug with the building actual effects stuff that is resulting in it showing "--3" rather than "-1". Let me know if you find otherwise.

There is also a minor display issue I've already fixed in that Sink elavation has reverted to being called Hills and Mesa to Peak.

My expectations for version 1.8 are quite high and your effort is greatly appreciated. Thanks Dune Wars team! I do agree the Dune Encyclopedia needs some loving however.

I'm thinking of only minor gameplay refinements and a lot of work on the pedia before 1.8.

I actually like the 'tech diffusion' component in RevDCM. I still think it is worth keeping in Dune Wars. The other components, which I never use anyway, would probably not be missed. Just my two cents.

Well, it is not to hard to put it back. Perhaps we should make it default Dune Wars behaviour if people like it?

 

[Ahriman]

So, we want to make the tweaks:
Shallow Well -> adds moisture in 1-tile radius (rather than zero)
Catchbasin -> adds moisture in 1-tile radius (rather than 2/BFC)

These, and tweak the water penalties for catchbasin and reservoir (if they haven't been done already).

I think you're right the idea of giving the Tleilaxu an offworld trade good might be fundamentally flawed for this reason.

I will think on it.

Is this the intended effect?

The double - is a bug, but 3 vs 1 isn't necessarily a bug.
If a building gives -1 gold, and other buildings present in the city give +200% gold (merchant quarter, refinery, guild bank, the +100% gold national wonder) then the net impact from the -1 gold building will in fact be -3 gold.

Perhaps we should make it default Dune Wars behaviour if people like it?

I think Tech diffusion can be a nice mechanic IF tech trading is turned off. But otherwise it can make the game just go way too fast.
Turning tech trading also messes up balance somewhat, since it reduces the penalty for bad diplomatic relations (Tleilaxu) and reduces the benefit for good diplomatic relations (Imperial religion, some leaders, etc). Leaders also vary in their willingness to trade techs; how happy they have to be with you.

Personally I prefer No Tech Brokering to tech diffusion, but YMMV. I don't mind putting it back in, but I don't think it should be a default option.

 

[Deliverator]

If a building gives -1 gold, and other buildings present in the city give +200% gold (merchant quarter, refinery, guild bank, the +100% gold national wonder) then the net impact from the -1 gold building will in fact be -3 gold.

I didn't really think of this case. I suppose, it terms of fluff, I could see that the more commercially active a city, the more there is an appetite for narcotics. The concept for the mechanic is that gold is flowing from the Semuta Dens to the Semuta Supplier building. This circumstance, where there is -3 gold in the city with the Den, but still only +1 gold at the Semuta Supplier building, slightly undermines this concept.

In order to make the mechanic consistent, we'd need a further change to the SDK to either:
1. Make the multipliers from refinery, etc not act on the -1 gold from the Den.
OR
2. Make the Semuta Supplier collect revenue that is equal to actual amount deducted by each Semuta Den including any modifiers from other buildings.

 

[Ahriman]

I didn't really think of this case. I suppose, it terms of fluff, I could see that the more commercially active a city, the more there is an appetite for narcotics. The concept for the mechanic is that gold is flowing from the Semuta Dens to the Semuta Supplier building. This circumstance, where there is -3 gold in the city with the Den, but still only +1 gold at the Semuta Supplier building, slightly undermines this concept.

Gold modifiers apply everywhere.
So, for example, if there is +100% gold in the city with the Den but +200% gold in the city with the Supplier, then for each Den you build you'll get -2 gold in the Den but 3 gold in the Supplier city.

There's no real good way around this, but I don't see it as a problem. Gold booster buildings like banks *should* boost gold from other sources.

It just encourages city specialization; you build the Supplier in a city that will get a lot of gold boosters. Nothing wrong with that.

On Slig: I do like the idea of this being a Tleilaxu resource.
How about this:

Slig gives +1 happy and is required to build a Charcutery building. The Charcutery building gives +2 gold.

This way, Tleilaxu benefit from the Slig resource, and anyone that they happen to trade to benefit from the resource.
We lose any differential impact from Tleilaxu selling the resource vs others consuming it, but that doesn't bother me that much.
[Alternative; make it +1 health, and allow the charcutery building.]

 

[Jester Fool]

Playing Ecaz, I traded semuta to BG, Ordos and Atreides. Since I had no problems with happiness, I did not build any semuta dens. The BG built one in Chapterhouse. At the end of the game, still only one den had been built globally. IMO, semuta dens probably need to have the negative gold effect removed, and even then I doubt many will be built.

 

[Ahriman]

Playing Ecaz, I traded semuta to BG, Ordos and Atreides. Since I had no problems with happiness, I did not build any semuta dens. The BG built one in Chapterhouse. At the end of the game, still only one den had been built globally. IMO, semuta dens probably need to have the negative gold effect removed, and even then I doubt many will be built.

The AI will only build happiness buildings if it needs more happiness.

The main issue is really that AI cities don't tend to get that big (particularly because of slavery whipping), and so happiness really isn't much of a problem for the AI.

If we go ahead with the idea of making slavery Harkonnen only (and boosting the yield from whipping) then AI cities will get a bit bigger.
Similarly, if we could convince any of the AI leaders other than Fremen/Atreides to sometimes adopt Arrakis Paradise, we'd get bigger AI cities too.

I'm also not sure if the AI builds polar water shipper buildings. We should check this. They may be slightly over-priced in hammer terms, given their usual moderate benefits (if you only have 2-3 ice resources the bonus isn't that big).

 

[Jester Fool]

If we go ahead with the idea of making slavery Harkonnen only

Good idea. As far as I remember from the books, only the Harkonnens really used slaves. House Atreides, BG and the Fremen absolutely DID NOT. Not only would the change fit thematically, but if it helps solve the AI city size issue, so much the better.

 

[Jester Fool]

Just finished playing the Fremen on the Arrakis map, finishing with my highest score ever. The Arrakis map is definitely much easier, for both the player and the AI, compared to the archipelago map, but quite enjoyable. House Atreides actually had a size 20 city, something I don't think I've ever seen on archipelago. Also, I noticed the AI had much better production - they all had huge armies. On archipelago, it is typical that two or more vassals are spawned. Not one did this game. BTW, I would have to say the Melting Lens is my favorite new improvement. I especially like the graphics for it - pretty cool. An entry needs to be added in the Dune encyclopedia though.

 

[davidlallen]

Version 1.8 is released! Further discussion on 1.7 is always welcome; but you may wish to update to 1.8. See the welcome thread for details. Please put discussion of 1.8 issues on the version 1.8 feedback thread.