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Version 2.6 discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rise of Mankind' started by zappara, Dec 17, 2008.

  1. genine

    genine Warlord

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    If It is possible to add the mastery victory condition to ROM 2.6 wich is in my humble opinion the most complete of them and since rom 2.51 is stable in late game it has become a viable option.
     
  2. c0d5579

    c0d5579 General Know-It-All

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    Partial placeholder post; CFC won't let me flip back far enough to do what I'd wanted. Edit pending.

    So I sat down to work on this some more, and in addition to what I have listed above, I suggest the following:

    Arbitrary - Effects of "Elaborate" I described above; what I was aiming for, Heb's "Extravagant" covers, double cost of courthouses. Suited for Louis XIV ("L'etat, c'est moi.") and Alexander.

    Hidebound - -10% Science. Yes, a negative science trait, I know it'll hurt. Recommend for: Boudica, Brennus (and before I get any argument, their priestly class was forbidden to write!), double costs of libraries.

    Unsanitary - -1 Health, double costs of health-producing buildings. Recommend for: Elizabeth (as with most of the negatives, this is debatable, but you must admit that the Tudors were not the healthiest society ever to grace the planet).

    Warmonger - As with Heb's Isolationist, I am unsure how to implement this well, but essentially use the Aggressive AI settings even in normal games; double war likelihood for Aggerssive AI games. Yes, I recognize this isn't normally implemented through the trait system.
     
  3. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    OK, I have just read pages 1-5 of this thread and my eyes are glazing over so I will post some of my ideas now then read the rest of the thread latter and put more ideas up and hope I am not repeating what others have said too much.

    Disease - Euribus World Religion mod had a good disease model, there was a chance of catching a disease when you first discover a tech, eg smallpox with animal husbandry. Once "discovered" no one else would discover it. The disease spreads along trade routs like religion which spread very fast in EWR. Different diseases had differing effects - I think smallpox dropped your population to a quarter of its current level (rounded up). It would then lurk and hit again later but less drastically. Other diseases only affected army units. Each disease was cured or mittigated by buildings or techs.

    Independent Nations - Saw this implemented in Total Realism and liked it. If they automatically have defensive pacts with all other Independents on the same land mass they could be a very formidable block :) If a civ's culture overwhelms the independent then it should automatically become a vassle or flip completely into the civ.

    Religions - I must play these differently to most other people - I try and get as many religions as possible and build all the shrines I can. Mostly for the money, culture and research they provide but also because not founding a religion slows my enemies down :).

    If you are going to have religion "civics" then I think they should be more like the appolstolic palace wonder. The owner of the Holy City (if the religion shrine has been built) gets to call for a vote on religious civic changes for that religion.

    Trade - more resources maybe, but I would like to see the Vicinity Bonus mod included and unique resource produced from this eg a mill maker near a stone resource produces qurne/mill stones - there is archeological evidence of such trade, and then Bakery provides +1 food with mill stones. Unfortunately the AI probably wont know what to do with this example as it stands.

    There was a Civ III mod "Paths of Glory" which was my other favorite mod which had more downsides to buildings - for example all trade type buildings always produce -1 happiness due to someone thinking they were getting a bad deal similarly for law and revenue buildings since no-one, except perhaps me, likes paying tax. Some thing in this vegn may solve the excessive trade problems.

    I agree that you should probably get rid of obsidian and think that you should only be able to build glassworks on the coast or in the desert removing the need for stone also.

    Merging worker or settler/colonist into a city - my first thought was to find out what the toal amount of food is needed by the city increase the city, not the current amount needed, "just" have the unit add that much food and let the system do the rest.
     
  4. Dewion

    Dewion Chieftain

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  5. E_Pluribus_Unum

    E_Pluribus_Unum Warlord

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  6. Jabarto

    Jabarto Emperor

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    I decided to try modding in the scientific trait since ROM 2.6 is a ways off. In case Zappara is interested, here's my list of suggestion for placement of the new traits.

    Bismarck - Aggressive, Scientific
    Suleiman - Scientific, Industrious
    Gilgamesh - Agricultural, Scientific
    Hannibal - Seafaring, Financial
    Victoria - Seafaring, Imperialistic
    Ragnar - Aggressive, Seafaring
    Pericles - Scientific, Philosophical
    Mansa Musa - Scientific, Financial
    Genghis Khan - Nomad, Aggressive
    Kublai Khan - Nomad, Imperialistic
    Huayna Capac - Agricultural, Financial
    Pacal II - Agricultural, Industrious
    Montezuma - Agricultural, Aggressive
    Sitting Bull - Nomad, Protective
    Wang Kon - Deceiver, Protective
    Tokugawa - Deceiver, Aggressive
     
  7. cr0ws

    cr0ws Prince

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  8. c0d5579

    c0d5579 General Know-It-All

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    Second leader choices for single-leader civs, integrating the new traits, might be worth considering as well.
     
  9. debressac

    debressac Chieftain

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    Every leader should have a unique World Wonder. Here are three examples with the French Leaders :
    Louis XIV : Révocation de l'Edit de Nantes (with Fundamentalism). All non-state religions disappear whithin the borders of the empire.
    Napoleon : Code Civil (with Social Contract). Free Courthouse in every city.
    de Gaulle : Appel du 18 juin (with Radio). 10% defense in every city + 1:) in the 6 main city.
     
  10. c0d5579

    c0d5579 General Know-It-All

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    Since the religion discussion thread has petered out, I'll go ahead and post my findings regarding Rapture here.

    Good: Johny Smith's Rapture modcomp has most of the things I was looking for in religion for RoM - local cultural traditions, cults of particular deities, and a schism mechanic for religions.

    Bad: Load times. Because there are a million separate religions, each with its own buildings, missionaries, inquisitors, wonders, and (amazingly) music, loading it all is a nightmare.

    Inconclusive: Rapture hasn't seen any updates since November. As a result, for instance, there are no Norse-faith buildings whatsoever. Same with the other various regional faiths (Tengrilism, Congo, etc.). Most of these can be culled from other sources - Tsentom's "Thomas' War" has a full suite for Tengrilism, Vodoun, and Asatru (which I still say should be called Forn Sidr if implemented). Building art for druidism can be looted from Fall from Heaven.

    Further: While I like where Rapture was headed, I don't know how hard implementing the system would be in any other setting. It's currently in WoC format, so theoretically it should be more or less fully modular, but I don't know how far you could go in implementing it for RoM.
     
  11. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

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    Some notes about current progress:

    1. Seems it's not possible to add new attitude levels to diplomacy without SDK changes - so I can't add new attitudes.

    2. I've looked through python file that defines the diplomacy window. Looks like that the all those functions depend on diploEvents which are defined in the SDK files and thus I can't really make any changes to the system.

    3. New route types can not be added without SDK changes... :(

    4. I won't be adding new religions - this was the decision I made already when I was overhauling the religion system (was it RoM 2.0?). It's not easy task to add them and more of them would just unbalance certain things.

    5. "Religion civics" -system would require massive changes to the game engine (SDK). First of all one would have to make new system for religions that works like normal civics. You might wonder why? If normal civic system was used for religious civic -system there would be numerous problems - first of xml files: all normal and religous civics would have to be defined to the same file and this leads to problem with AI players as they would see all of those civics as normal civics and would change both at the same time. Second thing is modifiers - there's too few modifiers just for religion specific options and few of them in certain combinations are currently bugged (also bugged in normal BtS but not used in that way). Third thing is that the religion screen would have to be made from scratch to support this kind of new system - even if some coder managed to make the required SDK changes for new xml files, new schemas, all new civic modifiers, then some expert python programmer would have to make new religion python screen. Fourth is the AI players - this kind of change would require SDK changes to AI so that they would know how to use this system and that won't be easy task. Sixth would be game balance - having 50+ new "civics" that affect everything would be pain to balance and the game engine in RoM is already reaching its limits. So overal this kind of thing won't be happening in v2.6 or in any future version.

    6. New leaders will go into extra civ addon pack. Currently about 10 have been added. I can add those which can be found from these forums in modular format ie. all the needed xml files are included with pedia and diplomacy texts (even with those it still takes some time to convert them to RoM settings).

    7. Traits - For v2.6 I'll add only positive traits. I might consider those negative ones in future versions.

    8. Mod component updates: I've found one bug in random event system from Revolution mod and it seems it was lot bigger problem - this bug has been fixed now in Better BtS AI 0.5 because the bug required SDK changes and eventually it will go into Revolution and RevolutionDCM mods.... so once those mods are updated I'll merge them again to RoM. BUG mod will be updated too in near future and that version should include a new fix to no interface problem (which was found in RoM) in some vista computers.

    9. Promotion system - seems I've found some limits from it (175+ promotions) and the system goes goofy when more promotions are added. So I may have to discard some planned promotions unless I can find out what's causing the bug in that system.

    10. Diseases: I most likely will add more of them through random events and not like in Euribus World Religion mod (RoM's religion system is based on his mod so I've had that mod for like 2 years now ;)). His mod was made for Warlords and it might be difficult to convert his disease system to BtS.

    11. Scoreboard: the current system in RoM is from BUG mod (MainInterface.py) and it's completely different from Revolution mod's version which had that fancy divider that changes the displayed civs when clicked. So merging those is not "possible", the whole code section would have to be written again to support both BUG and Revolution mod scoreboard features.

    Now I'm forgetting something... I'll have to post about them some other day then.

    edit: 12. I've been playing Total War: Medieval II (and earlier Total War: Rome). It has few features that interests me and I might try to add couple things to RoM. First would be the overhaul to King Richard's Crusade wonder and I would change it to Project which would then enable Temple Church / Templar Knight's Headquarters national wonder for all players and if possible only those players who have the same state religion as the player who completed the project could build that national wonder ie. join the crusades. With Temple Church you would then get Crusader units every few turns. In Medieval II priest units can fight against other religion missionaries (Heretics) to prevent them from spreading "wrong" religions to your nation - what if this was possible in Civ too?
     
  12. artemisarrow

    artemisarrow Warlord

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    i definately think that "THE EXTRA TERRAIN MOD" shoulde be added to 2.6 or another patch,

    this mod i found makes more terrian like savannah, prarie, wasteland, and so on, its more realistic and they have their own values...a great addition


    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=297183
     
  13. Jabarto

    Jabarto Emperor

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    I've found that Ancient Temples are quite useless. I mean, they're basically cottages that don't give food, in terms of yields. I think it would be a good idea to make them actual resources that can be traded, etc. They could give a bonus to commerce and/or science in cities with Museums.

    Also, do you think you could get rid of the resource requirements for the Tannery? It makes little sense to me that sheep and cattle don't count, and really, I think anything that could be butchered could be tanned as well.
     
  14. Chiyochan

    Chiyochan King

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    HOLD IT!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ryGR9SF9I0&feature=related

    26:00

    Take that!

    Except for balance i never got the point of having corps compete, surely i can still buy cereal in a place that sells Mcdonalds
     
  15. Chiyochan

    Chiyochan King

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    I'd have to add that glass works should add health and science
    thinking about glass works, you cant have so many things of today without it, certainly there would be no microscopes petree dishes or beakers, no windows etc
     
  16. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    The EWR mod python code is complex, I can still read it even if my editor stuffs it up when I write python :). It does better spread of religions. the default BTS only allows one religion to spread to a city. Which is why the "spread religion" buildings don't spread religion. In EWR missionaries are for strategic use since all religions will eventually spread to all cities. This would probably cause problems for the Inquisitor :).

    In EWR three diseases were implemented
    smallpox - reduce pop to square root of current pop +1. First occurs early game. Spreads like a religion. Very bad late game. Not a religion you would want an Inquisitor to remove since if your city had smallpox before then the next outbreak is very minor.
    typhus - kills units, chance of it occurring if at war or have a large stack. This one could be made into an event. In fact it is probably better that way.
    plague - like smallpox but not as bad. Spreads like religions but can disappear. Can reoccur. Does the event you have for this spread plague to other cities?
     
  17. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

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    RoM currently has Influenza, Smallpox and Plague events which all work the same way (based on default BtS Influenza event). Those diseases can spread to several cities. The effects are more severe for smallpox and plague.

    Last night I made some changes to happiness/unhappiness (small changes to buildings,improvements,resources) which hopefully forces player to use higher culture rate to keep citizens happy, which will of course affect how much money you will be making.
     
  18. Kaslak

    Kaslak Chieftain

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    Before seeing this thread i posted that suggestion about fascism/communism. Sorry for that, i suppose this thread was more in topic
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=306491

    I have another idea, but this might be difficult:

    Free market:
    If two empires have BOTH free market, they establish trade routes also if they're in war, or if they don't have "open borders" in diplomacy. (obvously, the rules for troops remain the same. This affects only trade routes.)
     
  19. civhelp121

    civhelp121 Prince

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    heres a post I had from another thread:

    I was using the civics: Federal, parliament, Liberal, Regulated, Secular, and Socialized medicine. I had the name something like soc. democratic republic. Something like that, I know it wasn't communist but that other name that is commonly used in scandanavian countries. Anyway, during a war I switched to facist and president, and then switched back. Then my name of democratic socialist republic, which is a communist type name. In any case, I think Federal, by its picture, is suppossed to be inspired from the American federal system, and parliament is common in Europe. There are plenty of countries that are federal and parliament that are neither of the names given.

    I suspect the socialized medicine contributed to the name, but if you look at western Europe they do have a federal, parliamentary system with liberal values a regualted economy and socialized medicine, and they are not socialist or communist countries. Anyway I guess I think that the name democratic socialist republic should be used for those with communist civic, nothing else.

    Another thing that I think should be fixed, I don't think regulated should boost hammers. If we look at the way commerce is used in the game, it refers to the demand for a product because commerce is the amount people can buy. Anyone who has taken economics 101 knows that the amount people are willing and able to buy is the demand curve. Also hammers probably represent supply because thats how much a country can produce. Keynsian focuses on manipulating demand, so it should boost commerce. Free market is tricky because it focuses on neither, it just lets markets go. Though one could argue that production (hammers) fare higher since a totally unregulated market tends to have things like low wages and child labor, both things we don't have now but did increase production. Therefore those should be switched.
     
  20. Big Heb

    Big Heb Warlord

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    Of course take a shot at Free Market. :mischief:

    In the Gilded Age, wages actually increased from their pre-Industrial Revolution levels and urban employment rose dramatically. In fact, Rockefeller's Standard Oil, coined a monopoly, actually gave higher wages than most other oil companies at that time. Child labor is indeed immoral, but to make that a cornerstone of the Free Market civic shows ignorance about how a market economy would function according to Chicago or Austrian school theory.

    To keep this on topic of civics, I do agree Regulated should lose hammers and Free Market should gain hammers (with no bailouts and safety nets, competition forces companies to be more productive), but Regulated having more commerce than Free Market is a tricky subject in terms of economics. Perhaps give a commerce boost with Central Bank?
     

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