Version 2.6 discussion

[konradcabral]

@jm_dracolich

The colored figure is just all the levels together, showing its progression through time, from lighter to darker colors.
I changed the 3rd and 5th because of lack of better solutions. If i didn't do that, the 10th level would really gigantic. I don't know if it's better to have a 10th level this size or just have 8 levels. The growth rate are just a comparison parameter on how much culture points are needed to expand and how much tiles these expansions influence more than the previous. Not an important subject.

Do you have cool names to give too?

@Big Heb

Early exploration slowed down: agree.
MinorCivs: Wouldn't they become greed objects and ultimately easy prey and free cities (I suppose they would be weaker than barbcities)?
Switzerland: "Draco Dormiens Nunquam Tittilandus"
Naval Porting: agree.

@Complex

Diseases: Due to their relation to livestock, wouldn't be a easing-to-code factor if we associate it and its names with the resources? I mean, in exchange to real names, we could use just "Pig Disease", "Deer Disease", "Cow Disease". Unless we have at this forum someone who really know about diseases.

@c0d5579

Forced Labor Camp: It seems to me a good idea to provide a whip in the late eras, and it seems easy to implement, with the same shape of the Slave Market.

@tomekpe

Food transfer could use trade routes, but I don't think this should be totally restricted. How could I feed my favorite island in the middle of the ocean?

About Religion Civics:

I think Religious and Cultural civics should be separated, unless one column for HOW RELIGION TREATS CULTURE. For the future, we can think about it, but I suggest to concentrate in religion for now, because the original idea was to create this together with a "schismatic mechanism".

Complex's Religion Columns and Civics (congrats about that ):

#1 Identity: Wouldn't be "Ignorant" a better name for what you're seeking with "Atheist"?
#2 Structure: This need more developing. The way it is it looks more like a matter of distance, not something that affects the faith itself.
#3 Message: This is my favorite! It seems great to imagine Buddhism seeking glory and Christianism seeking other thing than salvation!
#4 Belief System: Maybe rename it to "Belief Object"? And add dualism?
#5 Influence: agree
#6 Afterlife: Here we might include "Agnosticism", or should it be in #1 Identity?
*#7 Expression: Maybe here it would be the cultural & religion civic?

I also thought about a "faith in science", that seems to me very common. Those who see "Lost" know what I'm talking about, although I couldn't express it properly.

Cheers,

Konrad

 

[Complex]

My proposition is to link food transfer with trade routes (which is in my opinion historical accuracy - strong trade made transfer food possible)

You should have button in every city screen to set how many slices you to want to export/import.

Maximum level of export/import slices will be related to trade points.
Example:

In city A you have 2 coins from national trade routes, so you can export/import 2 slices.
In city B you have 3 coins, so you can export/import 3 slices.
In city C (capital) you have 5 coins.

So... you set city A to export 2 slices and city B to export 3 slices.
Now you have 5 slices to import to cities trade linked with them. So you can import them to capital.
If you don't set them food is not wasted but back to home cities (so you don't need look at trade points every turn).

This sounds good but needs a bit more work. Is the import/export feature restricted only to cities that you have established trade routes with or can you send it anywhere?

@jm_dracolich

@Complex

Diseases: Due to their relation to livestock, wouldn't be a easing-to-code factor if we associate it and its names with the resources? I mean, in exchange to real names, we could use just "Pig Disease", "Deer Disease", "Cow Disease". Unless we have at this forum someone who really know about diseases.

Well exposure to livestock was one of the fundamental causes of what happened when the Spanish came to the Americas, however it is not the only determining factor behind the spread of disease. So to label based on resource doesn't seem right. I was thinking generic labels would be fine and you could use disease names from back in the day and change them as time goes on to reflect the advance of science. i.e. there was a time when cancer was referred to as consumption, etc...

@c0d5579

Forced Labor Camp: It seems to me a good idea to provide a whip in the late eras, and it seems easy to implement, with the same shape of the Slave Market.

Great idea!!!

Complex's Religion Columns and Civics (congrats about that ):

#1 Identity: Wouldn't be "Ignorant" a better name for what you're seeking with "Atheist"?
#2 Structure: This need more developing. The way it is it looks more like a matter of distance, not something that affects the faith itself.
#3 Message: This is my favorite! It seems great to imagine Buddhism seeking glory and Christianism seeking other thing than salvation!
#4 Belief System: Maybe rename it to "Belief Object"? And add dualism?
#5 Influence: agree
#6 Afterlife: Here we might include "Agnosticism", or should it be in #1 Identity?
*#7 Expression: Maybe here it would be the cultural & religion civic?

Thanks
#1 - yes, ignorant is better for that purpose
#2 - sorry to give the impression that distance is the prime organizer. It was late and I wasn't thinking at 100%. What I meant this category to convey is a sense of how the religion is organized. Is worship an individual matter or a part of family/tribal/clan life? Is the religion diffuse and spread out, localized to individual areas or does it have a definitive structure and hierarchy? I could probably change some of the names to make it better.
#3-
#4 -forgot about dualism, that should def be in there
#5 -
#6 - Sounds good, again should be added. I think ignorant works better for identity since in that case I wanted to imply a lack of religion. Agnostic works better here implying a more rational and/or apathetic approach to death.
#7 - could be good, lets see what we can come up with to fill it in.

I also thought about a "faith in science", that seems to me very common. Those who see "Lost" know what I'm talking about, although I couldn't express it properly.
- I think this falls under secularism, just my opinion though.

 

[jm_dracolich]

@jm_dracolich

The colored figure is just all the levels together, showing its progression through time, from lighter to darker colors.
I changed the 3rd and 5th because of lack of better solutions. If i didn't do that, the 10th level would really gigantic. I don't know if it's better to have a 10th level this size or just have 8 levels. The growth rate are just a comparison parameter on how much culture points are needed to expand and how much tiles these expansions influence more than the previous. Not an important subject.

Do you have cool names to give too?

Oh alright, that makes sense. Good job then!
And no I don't have any ideas at the moment, but I'll let you know when I think of some.

Diseases: Due to their relation to livestock, wouldn't be a easing-to-code factor if we associate it and its names with the resources? I mean, in exchange to real names, we could use just "Pig Disease", "Deer Disease", "Cow Disease". Unless we have at this forum someone who really know about diseases.

Well exposure to livestock was one of the fundamental causes of what happened when the Spanish came to the Americas, however it is not the only determining factor behind the spread of disease. So to label based on resource doesn't seem right. I was thinking generic labels would be fine and you could use disease names from back in the day and change them as time goes on to reflect the advance of science. i.e. there was a time when cancer was referred to as consumption, etc...

I suggest that the diseases should just be named after their historical counterparts [measles, malaria, smallpox, etc], but should be based on location, rather than resources. In reality, every place in the world had different resources initially. Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley, and Egypt shared the cow, sheep, and pig, but migration and distance caused slight variations on the diseases when the Indians moved to the Ganges and the Mesopotamians eventually way down the line became the Romans [talking from a merely East/West standpoint.] China had more bird animals like the goose, duck, and chicken, so they had entirely different diseases. Anyway, my entire point is that location should determine disease. Somehow.

About Religion Civics:

I think Religious and Cultural civics should be separated, unless one column for HOW RELIGION TREATS CULTURE. For the future, we can think about it, but I suggest to concentrate in religion for now, because the original idea was to create this together with a "schismatic mechanism".

Very true. Agreed.

#1 Identity: Wouldn't be "Ignorant" a better name for what you're seeking with "Atheist"?
#2 Structure: This need more developing. The way it is it looks more like a matter of distance, not something that affects the faith itself.
#3 Message: This is my favorite! It seems great to imagine Buddhism seeking glory and Christianism seeking other thing than salvation!
#4 Belief System: Maybe rename it to "Belief Object"? And add dualism?
#5 Influence: agree
#6 Afterlife: Here we might include "Agnosticism", or should it be in #1 Identity?
*#7 Expression: Maybe here it would be the cultural & religion civic?

I also thought about a "faith in science", that seems to me very common. Those who see "Lost" know what I'm talking about, although I couldn't express it properly.

#1. If you're implying that atheists are ignorant, then watch where you step. I'm not sure everyone will like that. But I think you mean that the society has no knowledge or care for religion. Whichever it happens to be at the time. Again, I'll say again that I think we should stay away from an "Identity" column, because the religion column in the normal civics already does the job of the society's identity with religion.
#2. Hmmm I don't think it was a matter of distance, but just to show a sense of community, and how it fits with the religion. Shows great promise to help Revolution mod.
#3. Yes I agree! It's a great column.
#4. Agreed. I think we should add Dualism, as well as trinity possibly, to make for easier splits.
#5. I actually think that this one reflects the religion civics on the normal civics, so it's probably not necessary. But I do like the idea.
#6. Agnosticism should probably be under belief system actually.
#7. Hmmm I actually think this should be where we define how the religion is written down or whatnot, and can be the cultural one. Ie: Oral Tradition, Mythology/Epics, Scripture....

 

[jm_dracolich]

Alright, I know I'm posting a lot in this thread, but I have a lot of ideas and thoughts about it. I just hope you don't all think I'm crazy haha.

Anyway, @Complex, I went back and reread the whole thread and everything on the religion civics again, and I didn't realize that you meant this to replace the religion column. That changes things a lot, and in that case, Identity works really well.

However, I think that Secluded should be the default one, since people at first weren't technically Atheist, but they sort of looked to and feared nature.

Hmmm... I guess I'll expand on your civics a little bit, and change it a little if I'm allowed to.

Identity - Society's view on religion and use of religion, and the overall "Master Civic". Replaces the Religion column, and therefore should incorporate it into the Identity civic.
- Secluded - Default civic. Represents a society that is fearful of others and cares only about themselves.
- Prophets - Same as in game. Represents a society where a certain class of people [priests] have more power and knowledge than the common man.
- Divine Cult - Same as in game. The ruler of the civ is the head of the religion as well, and is the last word on all things. He is often viewed as a god incarnate.
- State Church - Same as in game. The state funds the church and controls it, but the state has more power
- Free Church - Same as in game. The church is independently funded.
- Theocracy - Same as Intolerant civic in game. The church and the state are the same entity, with the leaders of the church having control over everything political.
- Secular - Same as in game. Society stays out of religion, letting it do what it wants. Separation of church and state. I think that it should be handled as you say, but I think it should be more in the way of instead of random civics being allowed across all the columns, it should be made that only certain columns are changeable, while the others remain frozen. I suggest that Influence be the only changeable one after hitting Secular. The others are based on the fundamental beliefs of the religion and wouldn't make sense to change while in a secular mindset, while Influence is more of how the religion interacts with society, and can change.
- Atheist - Agreed with what you say on it, except that it shouldn't be the default.

My idea was to switch most of the Identity civics with the Influence ones.

Structure - How the religion is organized. I agree with all of the levels of Complex, so I won't go into detail.
- Individual
- Family
- Local
- Regional
- Centralized

Message - What the religion says is the truth. I also agree with Complex on these. Should there be disadvantages to each as well?
- Improvement - increase in happy and/or
- Salvation - increase in %
- Knowledge - increase in
- Glory - increase in Great General emergence and military production
- Tradition - increase in

Belief System/Deities - What is the governing force of the universe?
- Tribal/Nature Worship - Mysticism, based on the nature
- Ancestor Worship
- Polytheism/Pantheon
- Monotheism
- Dualism

Influence - Alright, here's where I changed a few things. I think that a lot of things should be switched from the Identity civic. This pretty much says how the religion interacts with society.
- Mythology/Epics - The religion relays itself by sharing stories of the god(s) and heroes of the religion.
- Scripture - The religion follows scripture word for word, and lives their lives accordingly. Laws often come from the scripture.
- Intolerant - Same as intolerant from Complex's Identity civic column.
- Evangelical - Same as intolerant from Complex's Identity column. [Possibly could be fused with Scripture to make 5 civics, as this one has 6].
- Pious -Same as from Complex's Identity civic column.
- Rational - Same as from Complex's Influence column.

Afterlife - Essentially the same. I like the ideas you had for it.
- Mystical
- Reunion
- Reincarnation
- Spiritual
- Paradise/Providence - I just like the name Providence haha.

Alright those are my thoughts on it so far. Obviously, I leave them up to change,m and whoever wants to edit that, change it, or whatever... they can. Good job again Complex on thinking of all those civics! And thanks for letting me change it a bit.

 

[c0d5579]

Regarding Complex's "Structure" column, which seems distance-based, consider the organizational differences between (off the top of my head) Orthodox and Catholic Christianity. Originally, the Patriarch of Rome (now known as the Pope) was seniormost of the Patriarchs, because of the association of Rome as both Imperial capital and the See of Peter. After the foundation of Constantinople, the Patriarch of Constantinople was considered equal to the Pope; much of the subsequent strain between them was because of the preference of the East for a first-among-equals arrangement versus the West's preference for Papal supremacy. This split continued after the fall of Constantinople; there are a number of Orthodox Patriarchs who preside over national churches which may have rites that differ from their neighbors. Until Vatican II, it was quite possible to go to Catholic Mass in Munich or Manhattan, and the Mass would be the same, and even post-Vat 2, ritual differences are primarily linguistic.

That's the difference between Regional and Central. Something similar, incidentally, is developing in the Anglican Communion these days.

Regarding "Belief System," I agree that dualism needs to be included; it's rather hard to imagine, for instance, Zoroastrianism without dualism. Trinitarianism, on the other hand, is only found in Christianity among the major faiths. While there are those (Robert Graves, for instance) who see a kind of trinitarianism in other, earlier faiths, those are mystery-cult situations, which fit inside a larger surrounding religious framework that our setup calls "polytheism."

One thing that we might wish to consider is, if this is the way we want to go, we might want to consider really expanding the role of the Apostolic Palace. This would allow you to cram your religious civics down your neighbors' throats.

 

[c0d5579]

All right, I promised I'd take a look at the new culture level suggestions.

1 - I like the growth rate progression. It's harder to start a cultural powerhouse than to expand it once it's up and running.

2 - The city radius figure - well-done, easy to understand.

My only question, then, is how easy to code those particular influence control zones would be. The setup right now is basically that you have a perimeter formed by pushing your level zero square out a number of tiles equal to your current culture level, then connecting the corners with diagonal lines. I don't know how well square control zones will work.

 

[konradcabral]

#1 If you're implying that atheists are ignorant, then watch where you step.

Not at all! The description that Complex did was not for Atheism. Looked like to me total absence of religious knowledge, that's why we agreed to change its name to "Ignorant'.

My only question, then, is how easy to code those particular influence control zones would be. The setup right now is basically that you have a perimeter formed by pushing your level zero square out a number of tiles equal to your current culture level, then connecting the corners with diagonal lines. I don't know how well square control zones will work.

I don't know where in the files this setup stays. Is it Python, C++ or XML designed? I think Zappara will answer if he can or cannot implement it. If the square shaped ones won't work, we cut it out, no problem. I really expect that we can put this in the mod.


Changing subject: Zap said at these days that he probably will improve diplomatic relations for the next versions. I have some suggestions about that, and would like to hear your opinions:

- Open Borders division into Cross-Border Trade and Military Open Borders: It seems crazy to me that in order to have business with civs I have to allow them to walk with their armies between my territory.
- Isn't it annoying a tiny little nation DEMANDING you to cut relations with someone it doesn't like? And when they come asking help in their wars and you are fighting to survive in yours? And why they can "refuse to talk" and I can't? This is a very annoying aspect of Civ IV...

 

[jm_dracolich]

The fact that Christianity is the only religion with the trinity is not necessarily true. Many Hindus prescribe to the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, instead of a polytheistic view.

 

[Complex]

One thing that we might wish to consider is, if this is the way we want to go, we might want to consider really expanding the role of the Apostolic Palace. This would allow you to cram your religious civics down your neighbors' throats.

YES!!!

I would love to see both the AP and UN work in a less massively ******ed fashion. Like maybe how espionage works, you accumulate "influence points" each turn based on how many believers are in your empire, how many temples/cathedrals you build, religious wonders you construct, etc. At ANY point you can go to your AP / UN screen and see all of the resolutions and their assigned point values. If you have the requisite number of influence points, you can select and propose the measure of your choice to be put to a vote.

It seems more often than not, if I'm actually able to even get the AP / UN in the first place, the resolutions are few and far between, and sometimes show an astonishing lack of choices. I tend to play a bit aggressively and the only reason I really want the AP is to make people fight for /with me. Nothing's quite so irratating as working your ass off to get the AP, going about starting a holy war, and then being asked if you would like a trade embargo on some negligibly powerful civ or to stop the fighting against yourself.


Regarding Dualism, I really can't believe I left that one out. Then again it was well after 3am when I finished posting all that.

@jm_dracolich - yes, these civics would completely replace religion in the standard civics screen. This clears room for an art/cultural civic like Big Heb suggested. We could even make a second art/cultural civic by adjusting the "Future" civic. My thinking is that honestly my games don't last long enough to really make the future civics viable, generally if I haven't won by the late modern age, it ain't happening.... Also, there's an entire civic category not being utilized for the majority of the game. Instead, how about moving that category in a "master" position akin to how I described Identity and changing from "Future" to something simple and broad like "Cultural Philosophy". All choices would be available all the time and as choices you would be able to select one of the existing leader personality traits. Sorta like being able to assign your leader a third, temporary trait. Maybe you don't want to focus on wonder building but you come across one that would immensely help your civ, why not adopt industrial for awhile. After you finish your wonder, maybe you see war coming from a large and powerful neighbor, hunker down better by picking up protective possibly, and so on and so on. I think this would encourage people to try unfamiliar traits and give usefulness to some of the weaker ones.


@c0d5579 - I like your example. This is precisely the kind of tension & eventual split I'd like to see in game. Using these suggestions, the same faith in two different nations running opposing religious civics eventually leads to a split. You could even incorporate dynamic naming into it, with labels like orthodox, reform, etc...



Anyway, I gotta go run some errands and whatnot, I'll try to think of some specific bonuses for these religious civics later on.

 

[Complex]

- Open Borders division into Cross-Border Trade and Military Open Borders: It seems crazy to me that in order to have business with civs I have to allow them to walk with their armies between my territory.
- Isn't it annoying a tiny little nation DEMANDING you to cut relations with someone it doesn't like? And when they come asking help in their wars and you are fighting to survive in yours? And why they can "refuse to talk" and I can't? This is a very annoying aspect of Civ IV...

YES, YES, and YES!!

 

[jm_dracolich]

@jm_dracolich - yes, these civics would completely replace religion in the standard civics screen. This clears room for an art/cultural civic like Big Heb suggested. We could even make a second art/cultural civic by adjusting the "Future" civic. My thinking is that honestly my games don't last long enough to really make the future civics viable, generally if I haven't won by the late modern age, it ain't happening.... Also, there's an entire civic category not being utilized for the majority of the game. Instead, how about moving that category in a "master" position akin to how I described Identity and changing from "Future" to something simple and broad like "Cultural Philosophy". All choices would be available all the time and as choices you would be able to select one of the existing leader personality traits. Sorta like being able to assign your leader a third, temporary trait. Maybe you don't want to focus on wonder building but you come across one that would immensely help your civ, why not adopt industrial for awhile. After you finish your wonder, maybe you see war coming from a large and powerful neighbor, hunker down better by picking up protective possibly, and so on and so on. I think this would encourage people to try unfamiliar traits and give usefulness to some of the weaker ones.

That's a really good idea! I would love to have a flexible leader type trait, but that actually functions more as a civ trait. Good job!

I'm still working on editing that last post....

Hopefully we can hammer this thing out somewhat.

EDIT: I finished editing your civics Complex, so go check them out and let me know what you think. ^^^

 

[Nightguard]

... Wow. Just wow.

I've had to just skim the last few pages of this thread due to the massive blocks of text posted here, but looking over what people are suggesting, if any of the majority of these recommendations are implemented, this game wouldn't be Civ anymore.

Unit attrition like in Rise of Nations? Spending food to maintain your armies like in Master of Magic? Those games had to have the AI understand how to deal with things like that (unless the devs just copped out and made them apply to human players only). I don't see how Zappara would be able to code the AI to handle such radical situations if introduced into the game.

Moreover, I don't think that the ideas necessarily contribute to the game experience. They make a *different* game experience, true, but I don't see that they would necessarily make the game better.

I definitely support the recommendation to delete duplicate tech prerequesites, if only because it should help smooth gameplay out slightly. Aside from that, about the only thing I'd be interested in at this point is a bit of a revamp to the future techs. Zappara has already stated that a lot of the future techs were taken from the Future War mod, and that he wasn't quite happy with their inclusion. I'd like to see what he does have in mind for future techs. I like the additions of future terrain improvements that have already been included, and some of the future combat units are fun too. What else would you like to see for future tech, Zap?

 

[Complex]

@jm_dracolich - I like them, I'm not 100% on some of the names, but I agree with the concepts behind them and what they are meant to represent. Now the tricky part is coming up with specific bonuses for all these while maintaining balance within the game. I'll start working on this but I welcome any suggestions anyone else might have....


Regarding Diplomacy, if this in fact Zapp's primary focus than there are several ideas I have to propose, some of which have already been mentioned and will be repeated here just to have everything in one place.

1. Separate open borders for military / trading purposes
2. The ability to offer gold per turn for either open borders.
3. Ability to sell spare units to other nations
4. Ability to hire mercenaries from other nations
5. Ability to click "Refuse to talk" to a certain civ, thereby blocking contact requests
6. Ability to declare war on vassals at any point. Nothing sucks worse than your capitulated vassal thumbing their nose at you and not a damn thing you can do about it.
7. Add a horizontal scroll bar to the top of the Glance screen. Playing on huge maps with high numbers of civs, by the time you reach the new world or other continents and find civs there you cannot see their portrait at the top as it is so far to the right it's completely hidden and therefore you cannot click to sort their relationships with the rest of the world in ascending/descending order. I find this very frustrating when trying to figure out who fits where into the political situation on the new continent. The only alternative you really have is to ask them 53,509,875,802,475 "how do you feel about" questions and try to guesstimate an exact number.
8. Limit the amount of times an AI civ is allowed to ask you to go to war with them or cancel deals with so and so, i.e. one war request every X turns or one embargo request per Y turns. No negative modifier for the first refusal. After Z turns free of any requests, the counter is reset and the next proposal to be rejected would be treated as a "first" refusal.
9. Ability to ask a civ to cancel specific deals as opposed to ALL deals.
10. Tremendously expanded AP options. As I mentioned, a concept of Influence points would be excellent. For instance you gain x influence per turn for each city with the AP religion, you gain y influence per turn for each AP related religious building you own, you gain z influence for each religious wonder related to the AP, and so on and so on. Again, you get these every turn and they are cumulative. Correspondingly, the AP screen is now interactive and if you have the requisite number of points you can click the motion you would like to propose, with a limit of one motion per N turns.

Same concept for the UN also.

11. Some new AP motion options.
Excommunication - (Requires 3/4 majority) Vote to revoke ABC civ's status as a member of the religious bloc. That civ can still keep it's AP based religion, however it loses all "We care for our brothers and sisters of the faith" bonuses, can no longer build missionaries of that religion's type, and loses it's seat at the AP. If my "religious unhappiness" idea is incorporated, this motion succeeding would greatly increase the chances for religious revolution within the affected civ if they continue operating the AP religion. This would be helpful for times you need or would like to go to war with a certain nation but don't want to start a bloodfest within your bloc, this makes it easier.
Outlaw Civic - (Requires 2/3 majority) Vote to ban a certain civic from being adopted by full members ONLY. Of course, ultimately each civ is still free to run that civic if they want but at the cost of increased chance of religious schism and a negative diplomacy modifier with all the other member states. An example of how this would be helpful would be to ban civics containing a "No State " clause, thereby ensuring the AP members retain their faith and preventing you from losing that "brothers and sisters of the faith bonus"
Free Trade - (Requires standard majority) Vote to enact open borders (trade only) between all FULL members.
Enemy of the Faith - (Requires 2/3 majority) Vote to label a specific religion an "enemy" of the church. If successful, all FULL AP members gain a positive modifier with each other indicating their solidarity (and a corresponding negative with members of that religion), and in addition stop trying to build or spread anything to do with that faith.

12. Some kind of triangular diplomacy. Not so much in the Nixon-Kissinger sense of using two countries against one another to achieve your desired result, but rather I mean in a more literal sense, being able to bring more than one party to the table and being able to work out deals amongst multiple nations at once. IRL examples include the G8, the Yalta Conference, and many many many others.

13. Fractional tech trades. The ability to say I will not give you the entire technology, but here's 2000 toward your research. This would facilitate more diplomacy as often deals fall through because there simply is not enough room to compromise under the current mechanics.

That's all for now, stay tuned for more later.

 

[Complex]

If he can get the AI to use trade caravans, I'm sure it's possible to get them to use supply wagons.

 

[jm_dracolich]

Yea the hard part is figuring out what the benefits of this would be. Originally, it was just meant to benefit every city that had it, and I think that we should keep this. So obviously, benefits shouldn't be too substantial. I'll try to make a quick draft of something that could start us off.

Identity - I don't think we need to worry about this as much as the others, since it's essentially a revamp of the religion column, which has already been established and works fine. But maybe some tweaking later would help to go along with the new sub-categories.

Structure - I think that this should mainly deal with rebelliousness in the Revolution Mod, but also give some culture and/or production
- Individual - Default, 1 in city, 1 in Holy City
- Family - 1 in city, 2 in Holy City, decreases local rebelliousness, increases national rebelliousness. [The hammers represent the work that the family does in name of tradition/religion, like in Ancient China where the family unit was more important than the individual, and was for the purpose of production/agriculture]
- Local - 1 in city, 1 1 in Holy City, decreases local rebelliousness
- Regional - 1 in city, 2 in Holy City, decreases local rebelliousness, decreases national rebelliousness
- Centralized - [must have AP or Holy City] 1 1 in city, 2 2 in Holy City/AP city [whichever you think is better]

Message - dealing more with happiness and GP, stealing from Complex again.... sorry, but your ideas are wonderful.
- Improvement - adds 1 happy, 2 with Holy City
- Salvation - adds a certain percentage. Not sure what would balance well. Increased with Holy City, also increases percentage.
- Knowledge - adds a certain percentage. Not sure what would balance well. Increased with Holy City
- Glory - adds a certain military percentage. Increased with Holy City, also increases chance of Great General.
- Tradition - adds a certain percentage. Increased with Holy City

Belief System - I'm at a loss as to what bonuses these could give. Anyone got any ideas?

Influence - This could deal with how it's spread and how it deals with other religions and society as a whole
- Mythology/Oral Tradition - decrease %, increase %, no missionaries, only spread along roads/rivers/trade routes
- Evangelical - decrease %, increase %, lower cost for missionaries, increases rebelliousness per other religion in the city
- Intolerant - -25% War unhappy, 1 unhappy per other religion in the city, no spread of other religions, lower cost of missionaries, inquisitors, and military units, 1 happy when warring with other religion
- Pious - [I wasn't quite sure what was meant by this one, so I'll do my best] +25% war unhappy, 1 in city, 2:hammers in Holy City, 1 per other religion in a city, 1 happy
- Rational - increase %, increase %, decrease %, +25% war unhappy

Afterlife - Again, I'm at a loss as to what should benefit from these.


Alright so there's that...
Tear it apart as you see fit.

 

[Complex]

Identity - I don't think we need to worry about this as much as the others, since it's essentially a revamp of the religion column, which has already been established and works fine. But maybe some tweaking later would help to go along with the new sub-categories.

agreed. The more I think about it the more I agree that the existing religion column should be overhauled and preferably imported into a new religious adviser screen, so as to make room in the socio-political civic screen for philosphy, art, etc.

Structure - I think that this should mainly deal with rebelliousness in the Revolution Mod, but also give some culture and/or production
- Individual - Default, 1 in city, 1 in Holy City
- Family - 1 in city, 2 in Holy City, decreases local rebelliousness, increases national rebelliousness. [The hammers represent the work that the family does in name of tradition/religion, like in Ancient China where the family unit was more important than the individual, and was for the purpose of production/agriculture]
- Local - 1 in city, 1 1 in Holy City, decreases local rebelliousness
- Regional - 1 in city, 2 in Holy City, decreases local rebelliousness, decreases national rebelliousness
- Centralized - [must have AP or Holy City] 1 1 in city, 2 2 in Holy City/AP city [whichever you think is better]

Individual - looks good
Family - looks good
Local - I would suggest +1 instead of . Historically, in belief systems centered around the local level, those local religious leaders tend to be among the better educated people and often in such systems religion and education go hand & hand.
Regional - I was thinking a minor buff to domestic trade route yields in cities with state , perhaps like 10%?
Centralized - Looks good but only in cities with state

Message - dealing more with happiness and GP, stealing from Complex again.... sorry, but your ideas are wonderful.
- Improvement - adds 1 happy, 2 with Holy City
- Salvation - adds a certain percentage. Not sure what would balance well. Increased with Holy City, also increases percentage.
- Knowledge - adds a certain percentage. Not sure what would balance well. Increased with Holy City
- Glory - adds a certain military percentage. Increased with Holy City, also increases chance of Great General.
- Tradition - adds a certain percentage. Increased with Holy City

All look great. I think that all of these should be available upon founding a religion so as to give it a "personal" touch based on your overall play style. I agree that these and the rest of the civics except influence should be locked upon going Secular.

Belief System - I'm at a loss as to what bonuses these could give. Anyone got any ideas?

I think these bonuses should be centered around buildings and have one or two wonders that they significantly enhance.

Tribal - +1 from Healer's Hut and/or +1 from monument, +1 happiness in all cities from Stonehenge

Ancestor Worship - +1 from Library (can't know one's ancestor without knowing the past), +1 from Theater (ancestor worship = a lot of commemorating for a lot of past events). Having trouble thinking a good wonder to buff though, I'll look at the pedia later on and see what makes sense.

Dualism - +1 , +1 Happiness from monastery. Many eastern religions have dualist roots and/or principles. Monasteries have been very important places in these societies (and admittedly, in many other places as well) throughout the ages, even up to the current day. Also -10% war weariness in all cities with either Olympic Games or Circus Maximus. Dualism at it's very core represents struggle and competition between opposing forces, as such dualist cultures tend to place a high importance on competition and athletics.

Polytheism - +1 happiness, +1 health from Market. Polytheistic societies often have very strong economic capabilities due to what is usually a high importance placed on individual achievement. I could literally write pages in support of this alone. I was going to recommend buffing the Partheon but it has a religious restriction on it so instead I vote some kind of extra buff for Temple of Artemis / Statue of Zeus.

Monotheism - +1 , +1 from temple. Having trouble making a decision on a wonder here.

Influence - This could deal with how it's spread and how it deals with other religions and society as a whole

All look good.

Pious was meant to signify a people who attempt to use faith from a desire to do good in the world but who are also extremely devoted to their faith. Essentially, a people who are intolerant at heart and very loyal to their own kind but would rather choose to leave peacefully with their heathen neighbors.

Afterlife - Again, I'm at a loss as to what should benefit from these.

I actually was thinking about this, what do you think about the concept of a civic where all choices are immediately available but once you select a choice the column is locked until you go to a new religion. I figure it has to be this way since it seems absurd to me that the Pope might wake up tomorrow and decide we don't go to heaven but instead will be reborn as a house cat. They would be again, general bonuses meant to customize to an individual's preferred play style just like "Message" except these are permanent of the duration of the religion's reign. (and remembered if that religion ever comes back).


Wow, ok that was a bunch of typing. What do you think? Any thoughts on my diplomacy ideas?

 

[jm_dracolich]

Individual - looks good
Family - looks good
Local - I would suggest +1 instead of . Historically, in belief systems centered around the local level, those local religious leaders tend to be among the better educated people and often in such systems religion and education go hand & hand.
Regional - I was thinking a minor buff to domestic trade route yields in cities with state , perhaps like 10%?
Centralized - Looks good but only in cities with state

I agree that it should be science instead of hammers. That adds diversity to the civics as well as being historically accurate. And of course, only in cities with the state .

All look great. I think that all of these should be available upon founding a religion so as to give it a "personal" touch based on your overall play style. I agree that these and the rest of the civics except influence should be locked upon going Secular.

Thank you. I agree, they should be all available at the founding of a religion.

I think these bonuses should be centered around buildings and have one or two wonders that they significantly enhance.

Tribal - +1 from Healer's Hut and/or +1 from monument, +1 happiness in all cities from Stonehenge

Ancestor Worship - +1 from Library (can't know one's ancestor without knowing the past), +1 from Theater (ancestor worship = a lot of commemorating for a lot of past events). Having trouble thinking a good wonder to buff though, I'll look at the pedia later on and see what makes sense.

Dualism - +1 , +1 Happiness from monastery. Many eastern religions have dualist roots and/or principles. Monasteries have been very important places in these societies (and admittedly, in many other places as well) throughout the ages, even up to the current day. Also -10% war weariness in all cities with either Olympic Games or Circus Maximus. Dualism at it's very core represents struggle and competition between opposing forces, as such dualist cultures tend to place a high importance on competition and athletics.

Polytheism - +1 happiness, +1 health from Market. Polytheistic societies often have very strong economic capabilities due to what is usually a high importance placed on individual achievement. I could literally write pages in support of this alone. I was going to recommend buffing the Partheon but it has a religious restriction on it so instead I vote some kind of extra buff for Temple of Artemis / Statue of Zeus.

Monotheism - +1 , +1 from temple. Having trouble making a decision on a wonder here.

Those are great! I like that it incorporates some of the ideas from the religion civics regarding buildings.

Possibly for Ancestor Worship, we could use the Oracle or the Pyramids. They're not technically "Ancestor" wonders, but they come close. Maybe even the Great Library to complement the Library bonus, and the Theater of Dionysus to complement the theater bonus.

I don't know too much about Dualist religions, so I'll go with what you say, since you seem to know a lot more about it than I do. Dualism looks good.

I think that Polytheism should share the bonus with Monotheism, since temples were very important for both of them. And maybe both can be buffed for happiness.

Monotheism looks fine. Simple enough. Probably the Cathedrals could give happy/culture.
And maybe they could all benefit from the AP.

I actually was thinking about this, what do you think about the concept of a civic where all choices are immediately available but once you select a choice the column is locked until you go to a new religion. I figure it has to be this way since it seems absurd to me that the Pope might wake up tomorrow and decide we don't go to heaven but instead will be reborn as a house cat. They would be again, general bonuses meant to customize to an individual's preferred play style just like "Message" except these are permanent of the duration of the religion's reign. (and remembered if that religion ever comes back).

I agree with this too. It should lock immediately, and shouldn't change at all. That way there's a little stability in the religion.

Wow, ok that was a bunch of typing. What do you think? Any thoughts on my diplomacy ideas?

I like your diplomacy ideas, and I think they would add a little more strategy to the game. I get tired of some of it sometimes because of it's simplicity, and this could solve some of it.

1. Definitely makes sense. I would love it if this could be implemented.
2. Hmmm this adds depth, and it would make someone think more carefully about who they trade with, since some would cost more than others. Would distance be a factor in the cost?
3. That would be great. Lower the cost of military support while getting money. It would go great with the supply line and mercenary concepts.
4. Again, that would be great. Sort of the reverse of #3.
5. Oh man, you have no idea how many times I wish I could "Refuse to Talk" to another nation. There needs to be a button where they can't bother you for open borders or war help or something.
6. Would help immensely. I hate how they overstay their welcome, and then never leave. For me, having a nation become my vassal is only a temporary thing so that I can regather my forces, but since I can't declare war, there's no point.
7. I'm not sure which Glance screen you're talking about. Chances are I don't use it, so I can't really give my opinion on it. Sounds like an easy fix though, and something worth doing.
8. That would be so nice.... I hate trying to wait out a war while building my army and having both sides asking me to join them the whole time, which makes them both hate me when I say no.
9. Wait... I think you can already. At least I can. If you click on a certain one it lets go of that deal. A least it does that for me.
10. Influence points would work, though I'm not 100% sure I understand the concept.
11. I love the new AP measures you came up with. Crusades would be a lot easier with that, and religion would become a lot more important when there's the risk of the world [or a good portion of it] teaming up against you. I think Excommunication, and Enemy of the Faith would help that a lot. And Outlaw Civic would help the schisms, which if this whole list of ideas is accepted, I would love to see in game. Lots and lots of schisms=more war and more conflict, with fewer power civs.
12. I don't know if Triangular Diplomacy would work all that well in this game. Perhaps you could explain it a little more.
13. And yes yes yes. Absolutely. Why would anyone give an entire tech? It's too much.. Some of a tech is better.

And 14. Borders that can be negotiated would be nice too.

 

[Complex]

Yes, you can cancel specific deals that you have with a civ, but AFAIK there is nothing besides "Stop trading with xxxx" when dealing with third party civs.


Influence points would work exactly like Espionage points. For example, if the AP has been built, then each temple/cathedral/monastery of that faith you have gives you points each turn. Same for every city as a whole with that religion, same for certain religious wonders. You accumulate points until you want to spend them, except instead of sending a spy on a mission, you go to the Resolutions screen and choose a measure to propose for a vote. Preferably, I would like to see other AP members able to propose motions as well, but perhaps the resident receives a significant cost reduction for introducing proposals.


inc history lesson ---

Triangular diplomacy in it's most well known form describes the diplomatic approach taken by Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger to control communist expansion in the world. Basically, the US used deteriorating Sino-Soviet relations along with China's emergence as a global power as a counterbalance against Soviet aggression & expansion. This was the prime motivation behind Nixon's trip to China and the famous ping pong match between China and the US. By improving US-Chinese relations additional tension is created between China and the USSR simultaneously forcing them to deal with each other while strengthening the US position all around.

(This is actually possible in game as it stands right now)

End history lesson

What I was proposing in terms of a new feature was simply being able to conduct trades between more than two parties, like a three-way sports trade.

 

[jm_dracolich]

Gotcha.
Understand it all now, thanks.

Both great ideas. I would love the influence system, and I think it also might work as bribery too. Spend points on other civs to have them vote a certain way possibly.

And the three way trading sounds good. I understand now haha.

 

[Hydromancerx]

About resources: I got shrimp, kelp and some other resources waiting on my hard disk (been there for long time) but I think we should first discuss about balancing happiness/healthiness. At this point I'm reluctant to add more resources unless we find some ways to cause extra unhappiness and unhealthiness

That's great sicne i requested it way back in like version 2 or something. I am also glad you added the "Ryes and Fall of Civilizations" style play with the minor civs and splitting civs features.

As for extra unhappiness. I am sure there are many ways to balance that. In fact I find my cities unhappy a lot more in RoM than they are in normal BtS games.

That is a great idea.
Another idea I would like to see [sorry for the threadjacking lol] is that of diseases. Diseases played a major role in the fall of the Roman Empire and Han China when the Silk Road became heavily used. They traveled via merchants from India [the home of smallpox and measles along with some others...] into the other two major empires, which had no immunity to any of those diseases and wiped them out. It had a huge impact on the economy and society of these peoples, and helped spread Buddhism and Christianity to cope with the onset of what really looked like the Apocalypse [death, disease, famine, warfare.] The rapid decline in population, and therefore army strength, resulted in the Mongols [Huns to the Romans, and Xiong-nu to the Chinese] invading both of them for their wealth and food in order to sustain their fast growing population, which was brought to you by bribery and piracy along the Silk Road.

So essentially what I had in mind was a disease mechanic that looked almost like the religion mechanic, but backwards. Civs start with certain diseases, based on location, and trade with other civilizations spreads these diseases. Obviously, the Silk Road wonder would help the spread. Each disease would give a certain amount of unhealthy to each city it's in, which would decline over time, representing the population's immunity to it. This would also prevent those huge super cities which come up in the ancient and classical eras that settled around two corn and a pig. And additional diseases would obviously increase the unhealthy, which lowers the population of cities, which would hopefully make the big civs fall.

One of the major reasons I thought of this was because I'm tired of seeing one civ [even myself] take the lead at the beginning of the game, and keep it all the way to the end. It's historically unrealistic and it gets boring.

As a civ trades more and more with it's neighbors, the more the diseases would spread, which would make those civs fall [unless of course they all have the same diseases.]

The diseases would go away after a while in cities either when medicine is researched, or maybe another few techs, or when the population is so low that the parasite cannot find another host. In reality, when the population falls below a certain point, usually 40% of the original, the disease can't spread anymore and it dies away, which makes the population rise again.

Some ideas for diseases would be malaria, measles, smallpox, bubonic plague.... some others that I can't think of at the moment.

Wow, that's a lot of ideas for that.
Hopefully it was a good one worth reading..

I totally love this idea!! Think of all the diffrent types of disease you could make. Such as say cow or pig farms could give a risk of mad cow or something. We totally need a chicken farm for bird flu risk!

I also love the idea of increased trade would give more disk of disease. Think of the boost airpits give and how a disease could spread globally!

You totally need some new tech for treatment of each disease. Possibly like leeches for the middle ages.

Also diffrent biomes should give risk of diseases such as tropical areas giving malaria. Or urban cities being at risk more of diseases since higher population. Granary could give you risk of bubonic plague since rats are attracted to them and carry infected fleas.

The negative stuff is endless now with diseases!