Version 2.6 discussion

[DavidB1111]

Whoops! How did I double post? Can someone tell me how to remove this?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@zap, I notice that 2.6 has the new missionary units from JARM but does not appear to have the correct sounds for them. I forgot them when I originally posted them but I thought I had posted them with the sounds later.

I am currently working on adding the GreatPeople mod to RoM but will wait for 2.6. The mod only adds pretty stuff for the player.

 

[konradcabral]

I am currently working on adding the GreatPeople mod to RoM but will wait for 2.6. The mod only adds pretty stuff for the player.

Good to hear that you're bringing new stuff to RoM. Do you have the link for this Great People Mod?

 

[0100010]

Right, well, if it's overpowered for you, it's not overpowered for me.
Seriously, though, will you check out my other answers to you? Otherwise I have no idea what else to say to you.

Also, don't play with Revolutions. Ever. Trust me, that's micromanagement hell, and unless you're playing Gal Civ 2, or Sins of a Solar Empire, you're not supposed to be forced into said Micromanagement. Why was it made again?

We'll agree to disagree on the spearman then. Though when you build a city on a forested tile the forest gets cleared, so a woodsman promotion wouldn't gain you anything.

AS for power plant, what I meant was the in order to build them, you have to have a factory building present in the city as a requirement. I think this requirement should be dropped, I'm not suggesting there be any changes to the whether on not various other RoM building should or should not require power.

Well stil think EPic plus army base is too much in one city. Force building a secret base with a great general (or an military academy for that matter) before you get the tech requisites would is a bug. It can be fixed by modifiing the unitinfo.xml for those great people and moving those building references from Forcebuild section to the build section.

Actually there were two big things that shut down the silk road. The first being the Mongol invasions of Central Asia and China, which mostly shut it down, and the age of exploration, which finished it off. The whole reason Columbus went west was to look for a shortcut to the Indies, back when there was just one "Indies" as opposed to the East Indies (Indian subcontinent and Southwest Asia) and the West Indies (the Caribbean) They way they and the Native Americans were called Indians, he thought he was in India. This all happened before Magellan's voyage. So yes I meant Navigation tech, and yes it's earlier. I though other tech would be too early. I also suggested the Magellans Voyage wonder go obsolete at Screw Propeller.

 

[DavidB1111]

We'll agree to disagree on the spearman then. Though when you build a city on a forested tile the forest gets cleared, so a woodsman promotion wouldn't gain you anything.

AS for power plant, what I meant was the in order to build them, you have to have a factory building present in the city as a requirement. I think this requirement should be dropped, I'm not suggesting there be any changes to the whether on not various other RoM building should or should not require power.

Well stil think EPic plus army base is too much in one city. Force building a secret base with a great general (or an military academy for that matter) before you get the tech requisites would is a bug. It can be fixed by modifiing the unitinfo.xml for those great people and moving those building references from Forcebuild section to the build section.

Actually there were two big things that shut down the silk road. The first being the Mongol invasions of Central Asia and China, which mostly shut it down, and the age of exploration, which finished it off. The whole reason Columbus went west was to look for a shortcut to the Indies, back when there was just one "Indies" as opposed to the East Indies (Indian subcontinent and Southwest Asia) and the West Indies (the Caribbean) They way they and the Native Americans were called Indians, he thought he was in India. This all happened before Magellan's voyage. So yes I meant Navigation tech, and yes it's earlier. I though other tech would be too early. I also suggested the Magellans Voyage wonder go obsolete at Screw Propeller.

I didn't know about the Silk Road, so therefore I bow to your knowledge.
As for Spearmen, you're still doing it wrong! You're not supposed to complain they're unbalanced once you promoted them as much as you have.
Besides, you're the only one to complain, while the rest of us are stuck trying to figure out how you broke the odds game by winning a lot.

And the Heroic Epic + Secret Army Base is not too much for a city. Especially with the increase of costs he did. Tanks are a lot more expensive now, I think, so mass producing an army is still hard. Just because everyone I fight gets riflemen by the time I have Dreadnoughts, doesn't mean those two are too much.

Also, Don't insult the English or the Australians.

"I could counter argue that, by your own reasoning above, such modern derivatives are diffused though out the country of origin and no longer tied to a specific city, etc."

Just because their heroic Epics are brand new, doesn't mean that they shouldn't be given the same bonuses.

Besides, people shouldn't be penalized more so than already higher "COSTS" for building military items.
Your final point about the factories enabling Power Plants make sense though.

 

[Munger]

Another random point just to break up the ongoing discussion (apologies!):

How come the future APC unit can transport other units when previous generation vehicles of a similar type cannot? For example the armoured car and the mechanized infantry units cannot carry troops, and they are basically the same as the future APC except they are less advanced. The future APC graphic appears to be the vehicle out of the Aliens film, in which case it would have only slightly higher troop capacity than something like a Bradley IFV, which is the mech infantry unit.

I think with mech infantry the strength of the unit is implied to be both the vehicle and the troops inside it, in which case the future APC should really be the same; so no transport capability but higher strength to represent futuristic weapons/armour.

 

[DavidB1111]

How about a simpler solution? Nanotechnology makes it bigger on the inside then it's predecessors.

Now, I know that Nanotech won't allow 4th dimensional building, but still, I don't know, I think it's because it's advanced and from the future, that it should have a few more special features.

Also, why wouldn't an APC carry troops at all? That's what they're designed for. Or did I misunderstand you?

 

[Munger]

Hey Dave.

I don't know, maybe it's just me being a neat freak but it just seems wrong to have all but one armoured vehicle unable to carry troops. If the future APC can do it then surely all the other APC type vehicles (like the armoured car, BTR-80, mech infantry etc) should be able to as well. My concern with this is that they become overpowered since they will effectively carry their own strength and the strength of the carried unit. This could make them more powerful than tanks... and so why build tanks anymore.

It's a very minor point in the scheme of things but just stands out to me.

 

[DavidB1111]

Hey Dave.

I don't know, maybe it's just me being a neat freak but it just seems wrong to have all but one armoured vehicle unable to carry troops. If the future APC can do it then surely all the other APC type vehicles (like the armoured car, BTR-80, mech infantry etc) should be able to as well. My concern with this is that they become overpowered since they will effectively carry their own strength and the strength of the carried unit. This could make them more powerful than tanks... and so why build tanks anymore.

It's a very minor point in the scheme of things but just stands out to me.

Um, armored Cars are not APCs. They're armored cars. That's all. I don't know what a BTR-80 is, and a Mech Infantry is already it's own unit. I think it shouldn't carry anything but itself. All APCs should carry troops, yes, but again, I've been wrong before.

Also, Tanks were already made useless by BTS patch 3.17. Stupid collateral damage

 

[Munger]

Um, armored Cars are not APCs. They're armored cars. That's all. I don't know what a BTR-80 is, and a Mech Infantry is already it's own unit. I think it shouldn't carry anything but itself. All APCs should carry troops, yes, but again, I've been wrong before.

Also, Tanks were already made useless by BTS patch 3.17. Stupid collateral damage

Well the original armoured cars were designed to carry small numbers of troops into battle, much like modern (and future) APC's (which usually have greater capacity).

A BTR-80 is a modern APC used by the Russians. In the game it can't transport other units.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Btr80

The mechanized infantry unit in the game is shown to be an M2 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicle. Again, in the game it can't carry units.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Bradley

The future APC in the game appears to be an APC from Aliens. It can carry two units, despite realistically having only marginally greater capacity than the two mentioned above. Just seems inconsistent to me.
http://members.tripod.com/CORP_HICKS/apc.html

 

[Munger]

And now for something completely different...

How about adding Tea as a resource in RoM? I must admit I'm always surprised that in mods such as RoM, Total Realism etc there are always many new resources but none of them include Tea. Considering the importance of Tea throughout history (wars have been fought over it!) and the massive economic impact/benefit it has had for countries both in cultivating and selling it (e.g. India, China) and buying and consuming it (e.g. UK), in addition to the fact that it is the second most widely consumed beverage in the world after water (source: Wikipedia), it really deserves to have a place in this mod.

I'm not sure what the benefits of the resource would be. Probably more along the lines of bonus gold than health. I guess it should become available very early on (Agriculture?). I also don't know how much work it is to add it to the mod, since it would need building into the map generator.

Just a thought anyway.

 

[Jabarto]

And now for something completely different...

How about adding Tea as a resource in RoM? I must admit I'm always surprised that in mods such as RoM, Total Realism etc there are always many new resources but none of them include Tea. Considering the importance of Tea throughout history (wars have been fought over it!) and the massive economic impact/benefit it has had for countries both in cultivating and selling it (e.g. India, China) and buying and consuming it (e.g. UK), in addition to the fact that it is the second most widely consumed beverage in the world after water (source: Wikipedia), it really deserves to have a place in this mod.

I'm not sure what the benefits of the resource would be. Probably more along the lines of bonus gold than health. I guess it should become available very early on (Agriculture?). I also don't know how much work it is to add it to the mod, since it would need building into the map generator.

Just a thought anyway.

I'd love to see cocoa and flax in the game, myself. But I think Zap said he won't be adding any more resources, due to the chance of critical ones not being generated on random maps.

 

[zappara]

Good to see such detailed discussion Just letting you know that I'm currently sick (just flu, fever etc) so I probably won't be modding much this week but I'll try post new alpha test version by the weekend.

few things about newest posts:
- UBs will stay the same in this patch cycle (I'll need to compare to BtS versions and then decide if changes are needed). Note that viking UB has been changed to give new promotion due to trait changes.
- no new resources, I've mentioned this several times (besides is there even graphics availabe for resources like tea or cacao?). Salt should appear now more in the next alpha version
- AI players do not know how to use land based troop carriers, so only human player can take advantage of them
- for v2.7 I had planned to go through all unit strengths but for that I need to first make excel document which can calculate lots of stuff about unit strengths and their bonuses...
- workboats can now reveal map only inside cultural borders which effectively slows done exploring
- each civ still actually has only one real UU, rest are just name+graphics to give "uniqueness for that civ". Once each civ has several "UUs" then their values can be adjusted to more be unique (one of my goals) but this might not never happen as it takes huge amount of time to research each civ's history...

I'll get back to you when I'm feeling better...

 

[Munger]

Thanks zap. Hope you get well soon... so you can keep modding! But seriously, hope you don't feel too bad.

No worries re not adding new resources. Tea would only have duplicated others such as Coffee anyway. I guess you could say it would have added more flavour to the mod. Ahem...

Since the AI cannot use land based transports, is this not another reason to remove the transport capability of the future APC?

Great to hear the next test version is expected this weekend. Can't wait. Please tell us it will include Better AI 0.60!

 

[zappara]

Great to hear the next test version is expected this weekend. Can't wait. Please tell us it will include Better AI 0.60!

Sorry, no new Better BtS AI yet in this alpha as there hasn't been yet new RevDCM version which has it included. I think glider mentioned it somewhere that the next RevDCM version should be out soon...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have just finished a .26alpha game - Marathon/Huge/Noble/Rev Off.

I could not find a pedia entry for the national unit SR17-Blackbird - these seem to be only able to bomb units and only do 1% damage - I can't figure out what use they are.

At no time did I have culture above 0%. Perhaps because I had founded a couple of religions.

On the Heroic Epic I found it had very little effect late game. I checked how long it would take to build a tank, gunship and modern infantry in three cities.

City A - Heroic Epic, Military Academy, Secret Army Base, Temple of Set, garrison.
City B - Ironworks, garrison
City C - garrison

Results:-
A Tank 4 turns, Gunship 2 turns, Modern Infantry 2 turns
B Tank 4 turns, Gunship 3 turns, Modern Infantry 3 turns
C Tank 6 turns, Gunship 3 turns, Modern Infantry 4 turns

 

[DavidB1111]

I don't see what you mean by Culture over 0%, unless you mean the slider?

Also, something is a little off about how long it took you to make tanks. With those items, minus the temple of Set, I build a tank every turn, period. So, unless you're playing on Diety or something, I can't figure out what major change to the cost of tanks has happened here.
Oh, and a couple of major world wonders that produce priests, and settling great prophets when I've built all the religious wonders. OH, and unlimited world wonders.
I play on Settler, but I don't think the unit cost has increase or decreased based on difficulty by a factor of 30.

Well, the Ironworks help a lot too.
My capital city has hit 1100+ hammers for the first time ever due to a lot of awesome events, not in game events, but still.

 

[JosEPh_II]

At no time did I have culture above 0%.

How did you keep unhappiness under control? Especially if you built even 1 mine for a city. Did you Not build any mines? Even with multiple religions a city with 1-2 mines will generate alot of unhappy faces.

Did you bee-line Liberal and Secular Civics? Did you Not have any wars?

Did you Start as a Minor Civ? Or was that turned off?

1944AD July current 2.6alpha game Epic/Huge/Noble/Rev off, and I'm running 30% Culture, 10% Espionage and only 40% research. I'm only generating ~ 100+ gold a turn and it's a constant battle against the "evil" red faces of my citizenry. I kick up the Culture another 5% and I can't maintain my defences. Arena, Coliseum, Temples, Monasteries, Synagogues, Churches, Brothels, you name it I'm using and I have cities with +5 unhappy citizens, not just 1 or 2 but 5 or more. This really slows production down. From 1 turn to the next I keep finding cities in Starvation because of red faces. So if I had a specialist, like merchant to generate some cash, I have to put him back on a food producing tile and then search the build menu for anything to boost happiness. Very challenging.

So I'm really skeptical that you played a complete 2.6alpha with out any gold for Culture, Culture set at 0%.

That or I'm one lousy player (which has some merit) .

JosEPh

 

[Munger]

Perhaps because David plays on Settler difficulty, so he will get a large positive modifier in terms of city happiness, which will counteract some or all of the effect of mines.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Actually I was responding to Dancing Hoskuld.

I have just finished a .26alpha game - Marathon/Huge/Noble/Rev Off.

JosEPh