Version 2.7 discussion

Samael · Apr 26, 2009

0100010 said:
Give Slavery a Great Person penalty.

Also, another way to represent glassware needing a sand requirement, would be to limit building it in a city with a desert tile in it's radius. This would also limit its spamability somewhat as well. (ie building a glasssmith in every city purely for the commerce bonus and not merely for the resource, it doesnt really need a commerce bonus anyway. Providing the manufactured resource alone is sufficient reason to build it)

I disagree with these statements. Disgusting as it was, pushing labour to slaves gave thinkers more time to think, with every whim met. Certainly, this meant if a great composer were born a slave, the chances are lower that they would ever be recognised for their talents but those who benefit from this barbaric system had more time to be Socrates.

I'd also disagree with the 'sand' requirement of glassware causing it to be restricted to desert regions. After all, sand isn't entirely uncommon. Living in a temperate climate, I can get some from the beach.

0100010 · Apr 26, 2009

Samael said:
I disagree with these statements. Disgusting as it was, pushing labour to slaves gave thinkers more time to think, with every whim met. Certainly, this meant if a great composer were born a slave, the chances are lower that they would ever be recognised for their talents but those who benefit from this barbaric system had more time to be Socrates.

Well you can disagree but your counter-argument is invalid. Its a known fact the intelligence capability is evenly distributed across the population, whether that population be of slaves or non slaves. It follows the basic bell curve. Historically is has also been the case that in the vast majority of civilizations or societies which implemented slavery, that slaves outnumber non-slaves by a significant amount. You say the non slaves have more time to become like, socrates, this assumes first that they are of the small percentage which posses the intellectual capacity to do so and when combined with access to education, qualifies them for becoming a great person. Perhaps this small percentage has a slightly easier time attaining such status due to having their every whim taken care of. On the opposite end, the portion of the intellectually capable slave population, being denied education and opportunity, can never attain such status.

I argue that the loss of great people candidates from the larger slave population will always vastly outnumber any gains you might get among the smaller non-slave great person candidates, due to them having more free time as you suggest. Though in my opinion this might be counter productive, because the non-slave candidates might just become spoiled, and unimaginative having never faced hardship or necessity, but I digress.

If you counter argue that perhaps the slave population does not outnumber the non-slave population, then I'd say that you really aren't running a civilization wide slave economy anymore.

CivEikka · Apr 27, 2009

I agree with 0100010, slavery needs the penalty, but also many others also, becouse some of the civics are just bad, and some superior to others. Some change would be nice, since I found (and I'm pretty sure that others too) that I use almost the same civics for the entire game.

Grunthex · Apr 27, 2009

0100010 said:
Also, another way to represent glassware needing a sand requirement, would be to limit building it in a city with a desert tile in it's radius. This would also limit its spamability somewhat as well. (ie building a glasssmith in every city purely for the commerce bonus and not merely for the resource, it doesnt really need a commerce bonus anyway. Providing the manufactured resource alone is sufficient reason to build it)

I really like this. Yes, as Samael points out, sand isn't that rare, but from a gameplay point of view, this is a lot nicer than requiring salt, and as mentioned above, completely removes the glassworks spam.

zappara · Apr 27, 2009

Grunthex said:
I really like this. Yes, as Samael points out, sand isn't that rare, but from a gameplay point of view, this is a lot nicer than requiring salt, and as mentioned above, completely removes the glassworks spam.

From gameplay point of view having glassmith require desert plot instead of stone resource is nice suggestion (except on maps without deserts). Salt might be replaced with Soap once I get some resource changes done - soap will be most likely made of "animal fat" ie. from animal resources (more uses for Whale!).

Just letting you all know that the earlier era tech changes are done, finished tech tree last night. I'll add few more things today and tomorrow and then after a couple test runs I'll upload it. After that you can start testing and I'll start modifying the future era techs.

l3illyl3ob · Apr 27, 2009

Dancing Hoskuld said:
I remember seeing such a thing when the beta version of events came out. There was an event that caused damage to units moving in arctic/antarctic regions if the civ did not have furs. There was also one for deserts. I don't know if it is possible with the current event system but it may be worth looking into.

And if what Zappara said is really the only way, I can think of one other solution as well if you're really dedicated to implementing this (which i suspect he's not, no big deal). That is give every desert tile a terrain feature for different attrition values. They can range from the current oasis to semi-arid and arid tiles and possibly something more extreme. This, however, would be a lot of work for a feature that could have questionable results in terms of gameplay balance. You'd not only have to edit every single map script to include them and have them properly balanced, you'd also have to make new graphics/effects to represent them. Hardly seems worth the effort for most modders, although if I had the ability I'd probably try.

Anyways, it was just an idea that sprung to mind one day. Thank you zappara for even considering it.

royal62184 · Apr 27, 2009

Is there a land promotion in the game that increases the flanking damage done by horse archer/cavalry/etc. I've played the mod alot I just haven't looked to be honest. Kinda cool to make a Flanking II horse archer with + flanking damage promotions. Kill all seige with just a few horse archers. Maybe it is a little OP?

EDIT - I guess you could add a promotion line for seige taht reduces flanking damage.

Once again I apologize if this is already in here. The mod is huge and I definitely don't have it memorized.

Seidrik_The_Gray · Apr 27, 2009

Royal, from what I've seen it's done via separate promotions. CBT1, 2, then pickup bonus vs. Seige Weapons. Flanking promotion appears to only increase your odds of withdrawing from combat.

Bezhukov · Apr 27, 2009

The best way to fix the spam (on buildings that produce resources, but I also think the same fix is needed to decrease the number of IPorts/Commercial Airports - one-turn future era research on Marathon by 1500AD is broken) is to require multiple prereq buildings. I would say that an all-purpose "tools" resource (with a toolmaker requiring three forges and metal) would be a nice prereq for all finished good producers (like glass).

zappara · Apr 28, 2009

Download v2.7test version 1

Requires RoM v2.62 installed. Do not use with Megapack (haven't tested if it works with it)

This version has the re-organized tech screen and many other changes made so far - still this is just maybe one third or one half about the real 2.7 patch since lot of work is still on my to-do list. Just yesterday I made some 30+ future era tech buttons while watching King Kong movie so that I can start working with future techs - multitasking for the win!

Feel free to post feedback about this test version.

Version notes so far:

Spoiler :

Seidrik_The_Gray · Apr 28, 2009

WOW! And all of the above, with respect to what's in the 2.7 test so far is only about half of what you wanted to do???

DRJ · Apr 28, 2009

zappara said:
Feel free to post feedback about this test version.

Prologue: Custom game -> ROM-Perfect World: Game freezes when loading after 1/10 of the green bar...

1. act: playing ROM 2.71 tectonics/huge/emperor - map is loaded fast, turns are very fast too and after a while my inca/hinduism/stonehenge synergy path is working pretty nice and so I try to enable prophets for state religion and happiness and... well whatever - you all know it: I really enjoy playing my snail turns and what happens then? Civ freezes, just when I am trying to change civics to prophets

I say to myself 'I guess the civics menu is bugged...but I will give it another shot anyway...'

Alt-TAB helps me out and...

2. act: ...I activate last autosave, reproduced situation and this time I actually click on the prophets button - but when trying to move mouse to "revolution" button it then it freezes and I have to restart comp because although I still have music in background (indian sitar sounds...)
civ is frozen and this time I'm not able to ALT-TAB anymore... and the Ctrl-Alt-Del taskmanager doesn't show up over frozen civ neither... nevertheless the civ mouse is still moving, sometimes turning into a white windows mouse outfit, catching trancendental but seeable corners of objects when clicking in the frozen pic of civ.... guess I should be playing it windowed again... and not stoned... :cool:

Epilogue: :sigh: :cry:

edit: Zap, can I somehow edit my settings to get old civics menu style again, which had the icons as pedia infos?

edit2: Just made a quick test trying out "RoM 2.71 Test1 WoC Lite Merge Test" had no probs of changing civics. The difference there is the civics screen scrolls vertical btw.

Lance of Llanwy · Apr 28, 2009

The test version has been stable thus far for me, though I'm isolated and thus haven't felt the effects of the different military techs...

0100010 · Apr 28, 2009

So will the Ancient Temple and Obsidian resource still exist? You've added new resources, I don't mind them but only as a replacement for not so useful existing ones. Although you can get away with shrimp as there are few enough water resources that there is room.

I seriously question the value of lead as a resource, specifically your mention of its use in pipes. Yes lead was used for them prior to modern materials, but prior to those modern materials clay was used far more often. Lead isn't used for pipes anymore because of its toxicity. I see give lead a negative health bonus, that reasonable. But from a game play point of view I would never even hook up lead, and destroy hook ups to it in conquered territory, just to eliminate the negative health bonus. What positive things do you get from it to make it worth having? The mildly faster build times for buildings is not enough. The negation of the negative health bonus from hospitals is not an incentive it only lets you break even (and only in cities in which you have hospitals) Its not a requirement for anything else (Ok Nuclear plants and that is the only thing according to your notes above, but in that case, why not build one of the other plants instead?)

The way you have lead described above, it would be even more useless than Ancient Temples

Jabarto · Apr 28, 2009

0100010 said:
So will the Ancient Temple and Obsidian resource still exist? You've added new resources, I don't mind them but only as a replacement for not so useful existing ones. Although you can get away with shrimp as there are few enough water resources that there is room.

I'm going to have to agree with this. I'm willing to be lenient with Obsidian because it has significant early game influence, but Ancient Temples are still useless. I've taken to modding them to give a commerce bonus in cities with museums.

0100010 · Apr 28, 2009

Jabarto said:
I'm going to have to agree with this. I'm willing to be lenient with Obsidian because it has significant early game influence, but Ancient Temples are still useless. I've taken to modding them to give a commerce bonus in cities with museums.

It has an influence only because you can build Axemen with them, (and a slight build speed help for spearmen) If stone could do the same (let you build Axemen) and had an appropriate rate of spawn, you could do away with Obsidian and still have the early game influence effect only via stone instead.

Jabarto · Apr 28, 2009

0100010 said:
It has an influence only because you can build Axemen with them, (and a slight build speed help for spearmen) If stone could do the same (let you build Axemen) and had an appropriate rate of spawn, you could do away with Obsidian and still have the early game influence effect only via stone instead.

Really? I thought it was used for all Classical-era melee units (and a mounted one or two). I guess you have a point.

Samael · Apr 29, 2009

Perhaps the simplest solution to the Glasssmith spamming would be to make the building perhaps require a Palace in the city (be it the Palace, Forbidden Palace or any other) and a Forge. The building would be only a building (and therefore not count against National Wonders) but be limited to a few cities but, as the nation grows and the additional maintenance reducing buildings are added (Does Rise of Mankind have Summer/Winter Palaces or am I mixing my memories with Rise and Rule for Civ 3?), they can build more sites for glass production. To represent the fact that the buildings are no longer being built everywhere, perhaps each of these new buildings produces +1 Gold per city, produces several glassware resources (for purposes of trade) and has a much higher cost in hammers.

That'd limit the amount of Glassmiths in the empire.

Perhaps, if it's possible, when Glass becomes common place, a technology could grant some other bonus to the building (to reflect ultimately having built a smith on every darn city in your empire in previous editions) and possibly to give a +1 happiness bonus to all cities - this representing the fact that Glassware is available to all people in the empire and the +1 happiness bonus from Glassware now represents the happiness from, say, high quality glassware or even a sense of national pride from having a long tradition of it? I don't know, but the resource has to remain available, even when commonplace, for the purposes of trade, at least.

Also, do any buildings gain a happiness or healthiness bonus with glass? It seems the sort of thing that might make sense. One assumes that sterile glass containers might be more hygenic in bars and hospital and the like.

Loke.be · Apr 29, 2009

Thanks Zap', will try.. hope it's free of CTD

Pla5ma · Apr 29, 2009

DRJ said:
I say to myself 'I guess the civics menu is bugged...

Today I will provide a new version to Zappara with screen width adjustment.
I will take a look in front for your error but I didnt changed anything from original civics screen in my adjusted screen.
So all routines for selecting an changing civics are the same like in original...

PS: Can you test this one please?

Version 2.7 discussion

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