Version 2.7 discussion

[Thorongil]

Anyway, mercantilism should at least precede free market as it was the materialists who free market theorists had to argue against.

Yes, cronologically-wise Free Market should come much later, I agree.

What about ...

o Astrology (Like Zodiac, Taro Cards, etc stuff)

o Mirrors (req. Glassmaking)

o Hourglass (req. Glassmaking) - Helps maybe with production.

Good ideas. Also, one should recognize that Astrology played a crucial rule in Medieval medicine. E.g. the most acknowledged scientifc explanation for the Black Death (1347-1353) in Europe was a bad constellation of planets. Of course, this was mainly due to not having better reasons/not being allowed to do more research, but maybe it could be worked in with Astrology.

Concerning the Glass-ideas: Maybe use 'Lenses' instead of 'Mirrors'. Could be requisite to Astronomy (telescopes need lenses) or lead to more sophisticated scientific methods in general (-> microscopes).

 

[Chiyochan]

Well, chickens like all livestock were bred for that purpose and I've personally witnessed examples of "wild" chicken flocks. Not that it matters since corn is even more of a man-made resource. There is no such thing as wild corn as corn is totally the product of ancient plant breeding practices and they are now no longer capable of reproducing without human intervention. Yet we include corn because its an important resource. The same goes for wine and olives as well since wine requires fermentation and olives are nearly inedible in their natural state (they are always cured in lye or brine before they are eaten). as well.

Anyway, if we were to add in a chicken resource, I'd prefer to call it "poultry" or "fowl" to cover more types of bird meat than just chicken.

Please i beg you to watch those movies i linked, you guys really dont seem to understand just how powerful of an effect tea had on civilization,

if you really want to see chicken in there, try condensing some resources into one, so that you have particular kinds of farm animals, like say "food producing farm animals" or food/produce, like cows and oxen, and then there sheep which produce wool as well as meat.

Concerning the Glass-ideas: Maybe use 'Lenses' instead of 'Mirrors'. Could be requisite to Astronomy (telescopes need lenses) or lead to more sophisticated scientific methods in general (-> microscopes).

I've already edited Glassworks to add Production bonus to represent this. Glass provides better vision for craftsman late in their life

 

[reconverse]

you guys really dont seem to understand just how powerful of an effect tea had on civilization..

So true!
Tea was a very important trade good in the times of the colonization and such.

Also, nice detail; the V.O.C. was the first true company in the world. Wealthy Dutchmen could buy shares of the company and/or it's journies.

Would be nice to see that somewhere in the game. Like the first cooperation able to be found...trade coorp. Later the others come in. See my other post(s) about other coops. idears

 

[reconverse]

Nice link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company

 

[Shai_Halud]

I'm not saying don't add tea! That and indigo are also very important resources in history. I was just saying if we decide to include chicken. Now, true, I would not miss bauxite ore or ancient temples. I think Tea and indigo already have graphics, but if a fowl graphic were ever made, poultry is much more important than indigo.

Also, as another petty request, there are some more unit graphic suggestions I might as well make. To simplify matters, I'll only refer to graphic used in Varietas Delectat 5. It has some of the most beautiful units I've ever laid eyes on and besides their ancient, classical, and medieval Mayan units, I would suggest borrowing heavily from that mod whenever possible. Also MythicCommodore seems to think a merger with that mod is not so difficult so I hope I'm not asking too much. On the left is the unit graphic which needs replacing and on the right is the suggested replacement. I'll try to make this as brief as possible.

Asian Style - It might be a good idea to export this style from china to Mongolia, Korea, and the Khmer
RoM Arquebusier = VD5 Chinese Musketman
RoM Musketman = VD5 Chinese Rifleman

African Style
RoM Arquebusier = VD5 Zulu Musketman (current African Musketman)
RoM Musketman = VD5 Mali Musketman

Meso-American Style - I also suggest another Aztec unique unit here. VD5's Aztec unit graphics are especially historically accurate. Just magnificent!
RoM Longbowman = VD5 Aztec Longbowman (this unit's armor actually represents a warrior who has captured two sacrifices, though such a warrior would not be caught dead wielding a bow)
RoM Arquebusier = VD5 Mayan Musketman
RoM Musketman = VD5 Aztec Musketman (one of my favorite gunpowder unit graphics)
RoM Rifleman = VD5 Aztec Rifleman
RoM Hvy Jaguar Warrior = VD5 Jaguar Warrior
RoM Hvy Swordsman = current light swordsman graphic
RoM Swordsman = Current RoM Jaguar Warrior Graphic
RoM Aztec Hvy Swordsman = VD5 Aztec Hvy Footman = New Aztec Unique Unit Otontin Warrior (the warrior order above Jaguar; this graphic actually shows the armor and shield decorations which Otontin wore; Otontin is actually the plural of Otomitl, but it sounds better and was the word used to refer to the order as a whole)
RoM Light Swordsman = VD5 Aztec Axeman (actually this graphic represents a unique Aztec warrior class who established and held the line of battle known as the Cuauhchicqueh; singular is Cuauhchic; this could be made into a unique Aztec unit to replace the Axeman if a better light swordsman graphic is found)
RoM Mailed Knight = VD5 Aztec Hvy Horseman
RoM Cuirassier = VD5 Maya Hvy Horseman

Hvy Jaguar Warrior is done away with. Aztec swordsman unit is the Jaguar Warrior and they use the same light swordsman unit as the Maya.

 

[Soddball]

The improved 'route' system is an excellent idea and something I was mulling over having read Barry Cunliffe's "Facing the Ocean" which discusses prehistoric societies which border the Atlantic. The primary method of communication until the Roman Republic's road system is the boat. Rivers are enormously important for travel, coastal trade the only way to move goods in any real quantity.
I'm not sure that 'cart tracks' should add any movement bonus at all. What they should do is allow you to connect to resources. Perhaps it should be possible to move 2 spaces in river squares but from what I've been reading there's no evidence of any overland transport using a road network before around 300BC. Major dwelling sites were, however, joined by river and coastal transport.

Is it possible to add a maintenance cost to the better levels of road development? I can't help but feel that maintenance costs should be incurred, particularly for asphalt roads.

 

[Soddball]

Now, does anyone have suggestions for Medieval era techs? Siege Warfare has been added so far. I've been thinking to add Map Making and Algebra but for those I need some stuff to fill them. It's very hard to think of technologies that aren't already included in some other RoM techs (like Milling = Agricultural Tools).

What about a naval technology? In the early fifteenth century the carrack with a single huge mast was replaced by caravels with two or three masts. They usually carried a lateen sail on the mizzen mast (at the back) which aided maneuverability and in particular allowed the ship to tack in to a headwind. The economic and military benefits are clear.

Rigging also changed - the horizontal footropes that are so familiar to us from later wooden-hulled warships appear at this time.

You could also throw in a late galley - they were widely used in the 1500s and were armed with a heavy for'ard cannon. They outclassed carracks in the shallow Mediterranean waters.

Worth considering, too, that the technique for casting naval cannon developed in the 1540s came directly from bell casting. I'm referring to the bronze cannon widely used at this period. Good quality iron cannon came later.

This period was also the time when the first ship plans were laid down on paper.

 

[Chiyochan]

I actualy think there should be less units, I have 1.5 gbs of ram here and I would like to see modern day sometime =3

Why not go the Total war route, instead of having more units, just give them automatic upgrades with technology?

 

[Munger]

I actualy think there should be less units, I have 1.5 gbs of ram here and I would like to see modern day sometime =3

Why not go the Total war route, instead of having more units, just give them automatic upgrades with technology?

Please no! More units is part of what makes RoM so good. I just love browsing the 'menu' (build list) and choosing which one of all those wonderful units I will create next and what I will use it for.

 

[Shai_Halud]

For the future era, have you thought of developing a tech, or a national or world wonder to create a gene exam (procedure of examining an embryo for faulty/undesirable genes and removing them)? It would naturally be a major step forward in health care.

 

[OwieB2003]

For the future era, have you thought of developing a tech, or a national or world wonder to create a gene exam (procedure of examining an embryo for faulty/undesirable genes and removing them)? It would naturally be a major step forward in health care.

An ... undiplomatic step forward, perhaps.

Eugenics is bad, mmkay?

 

[Chiyochan]

Please no! More units is part of what makes RoM so good. I just love browsing the 'menu' (build list) and choosing which one of all those wonderful units I will create next and what I will use it for.

don't you mean what you wish you could use it for if you could get past renissaunce era?

If promotions can add stuff like the warlord, cant you get it to change the look anyway?

either way i still think there could be better uses for the space than just "swordsman mark 2 and 3"

 

[Tekener]

Just my thoughts:

- I am a fan of the Classical Ages (Greek & Roman Empire and such). Many different troup types first appeared in these ages like the short sword fighter, the phalanx, the pillums, and also the first ballistas. How about adding them to this area in the game?

- For the stone age time, how about a pre archer type which I am missing in the game: the stone thrower and in classic ages it's getting the slingshot (like for David & Goliath)

- Can you implement a selection field or leveler to choose the tech cost percentage for customs games more easily?

Thanks, Tek

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

For the amen-ra religion you could reintroduce the Horus and Anubis Knights. Make them available with Fundamentalism and require the already exiting temples of Isis and Osiris.

 

[Shai_Halud]

An ... undiplomatic step forward, perhaps.

Eugenics is bad, mmkay?

Don't be be paranoid. I was just referring to the prevention of deformation and the strengthening of the body against disease. Things like sickle cell syndrome and downs syndrome would cease to exist. If we were to create certain other alterations, cancer might be avoided altogether and the general functioning of the human body could be improved. It might also be necessary to adjust the body to help accommodate any mechanical improvements we intend to make. Have you read my Integration article on the Civics Mini mod thread?

As to knights for Kemetism, I'd adamantly object. That religion gets enough of a head start already and hs several national wonders to its name which are extremely useful. We need to work at strengthening the later religions (especially Islam), the earlier ones don't need it. Though I am wholly for adding in the Empire of Alexander the Great as a Hellenistic wonder, so perhaps we'll consider it after some Islamic, Buddhist, and Confucian advantages are added in.

Also, is there any way for one wonder to prevent you from building another wonder?

 

[Chiyochan]

Just my thoughts:

- Can you implement a selection field or leveler to choose the tech cost percentage for customs games more easily?

Thanks, Tek

that could actually be really difficult, since other things also affect this.

 

[styfken]

Is it possible to implement a "score victory" that works as follows: After turn x (where x is defined by the gamer), the program checks at EVERY turn for the following condition: If the highest score player exceeds the second-placed player by y% (y is defined by the gamer), then he wins.

That would make possible a victory at, for example, the modern era, without having to wait for building the spaceship, in situations where domination, cultural or any other kind of victory is almost impossible.

Of course if x is set to 1500, then this victory type is effectively non-existent, so it will still be possible for a gamer to play without this kind of visctory.

For me it would be very helpful though, as I abandon quite a lot of games because any type of victory is too far away or too difficult and the game gets too slow in later eras. I would really like to have this "score victory" to have a realistic goal to go for.

 

[generalstaff]

What about ...

o Astrology (Like Zodiac, Taro Cards, etc stuff)

o Soap - Gives Plus to Healthiness. Needs Animal Fat (Cow or Pig resources maybe) or Olive Oil.

o Mirrors (req. Glassmaking)

o Hourglass (req. Glassmaking) - Helps maybe with production.

Great ideas, however, I think that they should be represented by existing buildings. Olives should give Health bonus with Grocer (in addition to the Market happiness bonus) and Lighthouses should give an increased commerce bonus with Glass

Whatever bonuses the Hourglass and Astrology techs give should be obsoleted by, and necessary for Clockworks and Astronomy.

 

[Bezhukov]

As for Communism being unplayable - I say it's too good! My current immortal game took off after I got that 35% hammer bonus with all the mid/late techs that goose lumbermill hammers.

 

[Bezhukov]

I'd like to see the next update focus on RoMulating the corporations along the following lines:

5 medieval/renaissance guilds
10 industrial/modern/future corporations

Each guild would:

Require two resources (ex: glassblowers, requiring salt and stone)
Produce an optional manufactured good resource (such as glass)
Not require an HQ, but rather franchises would require a (substantial) lump sum payment and yearly maintenance for licensing, which would also open up an additional building (such as a glassblower).
Provide benefits to cities where the guild is located for each raw material available, like corporations, to facilitate trade

Suggested guilds:
Glassblowers
Masons (no manufactured good, but enhanced production/culture/wonder bonus - requiring stone/marble and iron/copper)
Clothiers (requiring sheep/cotton and dye, producing textiles)
Blacksmiths (requiring iron/copper, a tannery resource, and a tannery - no resource produced but offering unique unit promotions and production bonuses, replacing armorer)

If one were ambitious one could implement levels of guilds, such as one that produces paper, and another that uses paper to produce books, for large research gains, but that would place a strain on the number of resources available in the game. Some of this could be alleviated by cutting marginal resources such as tobacco, coffee, gems, olives, and obsidian.

Corporations would:
Require three resources present, although some an either/or
Require a GP to found an HQ
Each compete with one, and only one other corporation
Span all eras from Industrial on (i.e. future corporations)
The three "Hit" wonders should no longer produce free resources to free up new ones for these corporations to produce.

Suggested corporations:

Lots of open design space here.