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Version 2.7 discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rise of Mankind' started by zappara, Mar 20, 2009.

  1. Bezhukov

    Bezhukov Deity

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    I'd like to see the next update focus on RoMulating the corporations along the following lines:

    5 medieval/renaissance guilds
    10 industrial/modern/future corporations

    Each guild would:

    Require two resources (ex: glassblowers, requiring salt and stone)
    Produce an optional manufactured good resource (such as glass)
    Not require an HQ, but rather franchises would require a (substantial) lump sum payment and yearly maintenance for licensing, which would also open up an additional building (such as a glassblower).
    Provide benefits to cities where the guild is located for each raw material available, like corporations, to facilitate trade

    Suggested guilds:
    Glassblowers
    Masons (no manufactured good, but enhanced production/culture/wonder bonus - requiring stone/marble and iron/copper)
    Clothiers (requiring sheep/cotton and dye, producing textiles)
    Blacksmiths (requiring iron/copper, a tannery resource, and a tannery - no resource produced but offering unique unit promotions and production bonuses, replacing armorer)

    If one were ambitious one could implement levels of guilds, such as one that produces paper, and another that uses paper to produce books, for large research gains, but that would place a strain on the number of resources available in the game. Some of this could be alleviated by cutting marginal resources such as tobacco, coffee, gems, olives, and obsidian.

    Corporations would:
    Require three resources present, although some an either/or
    Require a GP to found an HQ
    Each compete with one, and only one other corporation
    Span all eras from Industrial on (i.e. future corporations)
    The three "Hit" wonders should no longer produce free resources to free up new ones for these corporations to produce.

    Suggested corporations:

    Lots of open design space here.
     
  2. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

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    Glass blowing is already requisite for Optics and optics is required for Astronomy so this is already in RoM ;)

    Possible probably but that would cause enormous stress to computer to calculate each civ's roads every turn (each civ would check every map plot every turn) so this would be too much of burden to the game.

    Fresh water adds +1 health in RoM, jungles -0.4 health so fresh water is 2.5 jungles... if city has more jungles, unhealthiness wins. One could also say that all rivers should cause unhealthiness, floods, insects etc.

    Over the past two years plenty of stuff has gone to box "maybe some day I'll include this". ;)
     
  3. styfken

    styfken Chieftain

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    Zappara, can you implement this kind of victory? Is it too much trouble? Anyone else interested?
     
  4. Revolutionist

    Revolutionist Chieftain

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    Gah, I hope more religions aren't added. I'm as big a fan of MOAR as the next guy, it's certainly one of the big reasons that I play RoM. But it seems like the more religions you add, the less special each one is. Founding one becomes almost no big deal at all, and it seems like every single civ ends up with its own religion. Personally, I'd rather zappara keeps up with his nifty work of making each religion a bit different from the others with buildings and such. That I do love. Cookiecutter religions aren't as cool, after all.

    I'm throwing a vote behind Tea as a resoure. It was definately an important one in the past, and is still a huge industry today. It's at least as important as coffee, personal preferences aside.

    I'm still waiting patiently for the future era to be expanded a bit more. It always seems like the icing on the cake for me, when I get that far, even if the game's winner has already been decided. It's a kind of Behold my Glory and Dispair, Rival Civs! moment, at least. It always seems like the time for really over the top buildings and wonders to match the superadvanced units already wandering around at that time.
     
  5. JanK

    JanK Chieftain

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    Bezhukav's idea is awsome!
    I especialy like the black****hs guild idea with new prmotions n'stuff!
     
  6. NBAfan

    NBAfan boss

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    I don't think more religions are a good idea. I think there is enough, as more would make less interesting.
     
  7. Bezhukov

    Bezhukov Deity

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    I would even go so far as to suggest reducing the religions to four:

    animism
    polytheism
    monotheism
    atheism

    As its too politically incorrect to make them distinctive enough to be interesting and the slots freed up could be employed to reflect other forms of human organization, such as the aforementioned guilds. Having so many religions also undermines the happiness control measures lately implemented and duplicates ground already covered in the base game,
     
  8. Subaru WrXxX

    Subaru WrXxX Chieftain

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    Also on board for a few less religions although I believe only 4 is a bit steep...To my fault I don't know half of the religions in RoM & in-game it feels less important as so many religions get found & half are never developed. I do like having so many over base Civ & REALLY like the depth & originality paid to each one but if 2 to 4 or so didn't make the cut, I for one wouldn't miss them...no idea as to suggesting which ones to axe tho...

    Also not sure if possible but if there were ways to further positive reactions to your actions with other civs...Everytime you trade w/ my enemy or declared war or w/e 100 or so negative actions that you can do, you get heavily penalized but there are rarely any benefits toward positive actions...again I'm vague on details but giving units or money or joining in wars for a civ should yield in higher positive rewards than currently present to balance the horde of negative reactions...
     
  9. Revolutionist

    Revolutionist Chieftain

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    I understand the idea behind it. But reducing the flavor of religions even more seems counterproductive. Especially since RoM is a mod, not a commercial release. You can be a little less concerned about political correctness than Firaxis had to be.


    On a more design oriented angle the more religions you have the more difficult it is to make each one feel different. The ideas just get spread too thin. I'd at least be happy with some differences between temples and monastaries of various religions. The current crop of wonders and promotions is a great addition already. Good enough to be expanded.

    And while I wouldn't miss a few missing religions either, cutting back doesn't seem likely to happen. Since no matter which one is cut out, you'd have a gaggle of angry RoM fans scowling and wondering what happened to their favorite religion, Taoism, or whatever.

    There's been more than a few times when I've felt the same way. Seems like over the course of ten turns it'll be like:
    CPU: "Give us Flintlocks. We neeeeeds it. For.. umm.. humanitarian purposes."
    Player: "Umm. Nope."
    CPU: :mad:

    CPU: "Stop trading with your dearest friends, CPU2"
    Player: "Lemme think. Nope."
    CPU: :mad::mad:

    CPU: "If you won't stop trading with CPU2, can I interest you in helping me with a blood soaked war with them?"
    Player: "Wait, what? That's crazy!"
    CPU: :mad::mad::mad:

    CPU: "Well, if you won't stop trading with CPU2, and won't go to war with them, how about giving us Flintlocks..?"

    And of course, they'll remember that for the next two hundred turns. Though the five tons of solid gold, ten gifted units, three technologies and miles of roads built by your workers in their territory is forgotten ten turns later, or never noticed at all.

    I'd be more concerned about it if the AIs ever bothered to declare war based on their all consuming, growing hatred of my tendancy to not provide them with the means to kill me. Seems like no matter how much they hate you, all they really care about is how many musketmen you have stacked up in your cities, compared to how many they have in theirs. :p
     
  10. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    On the topic of religions - when I play I like to try for founding all the religions. With the current number of religions in RoM this strategy works well. I have played with three of the extra modular religions and find that it is too much. I can still found all of them if I am lucky but my cities get bogged down building the missionaries to spread them :). I have also started getting the diplomatic victory from the Apostolic Palace too often.

    One thing that would be good is fixing the Proffet buttons to only show which holy shrines have not been built somewhere in the world. Wait a minute this would probably be a good task for a learner of Python like me to attempt :)
     
  11. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

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    If someone makes graphics for Tea it can be added... and no, I haven't seen graphics for Tea resource in any mod yet.

    So far I've added Lead resource, found nice graphics for it. Seems that more than 50 resources are allowed and if this is correct and no problems occur, there's 24 empty resource slots still to fill and I was thinking to finally make the manufactured resource system more complex. For ideas I made this short production lines list:

    Spoiler :
    logs => lumber (lumbermill)

    lumber => pulpwood (sawmill) => paper (paper mill / factory)

    lumber + steel => weapons (weapon factory)

    cow => milk => cheese

    wheat => Beer (brewery)

    sugar => alcohol (distillery)

    sheep => wool => cloth (Textile factory)

    flax or Hemp => Sails and cloth

    Clay => Pottery

    cotton => cloth

    Sulphur (in acidic form) + water/oil => Chemicals => Fertilizers

    Oil or Oil Products or Chemicals(?) => Plastic

    Coal => Nanotubes (Laboratory?)

    Chemicals => Synthetic fibers (Polyester, Nylon, Kevlar etc)

    Copper + Silicon? => Semiconductors

    Nanobots

    Ceramic compounds (used in spaceships / high temperature environments like Fusion reactor)

    Semiconductors + Plastic + Aluminum => Robot parts

    Medicine/Drugs

    Copper + Zinc + Sulphur => Batteries?

    Coal => Synthetic rubies/diamonds (alternative for gems?)

    Solar cells

    Cement / Concrete

    Natural gas

    Exotic wood (furniture, art, ship parts)

    Carbonfibers (cars, bikes, hi-tech stuff)

    I don't think that many new natural resources should be added, as the maps are already cluttered with resources. But there's lots of room for modern day manufactured resources...
     
  12. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Tea is a resource in History in the Making. Unfortunately the graphics are packed. Aslo unfortunate is that you can't search for tea on CivFanatics because it is less than 4 characters long.
     
  13. Retrospect

    Retrospect Warlord

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    I love the manufactured resources, that was one of the first things that really grabbed me about ROM, making the system more complex can only be a good thing.

    As for natural resources I agree that there already is a lot and any more would be too much I think.... would like to see tea in there though..... probably because I am a Brit :D
     
  14. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

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    I could make a tea model, though without animation... You could still use the "Plantation" improvement which is animated. The question is, how should the tea look?
     
  15. Lachlan

    Lachlan Great Builder of Civs !

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    What about Military Alliance like NATO ?

    What about Economic Alliance like NAFTA ?

    Alliance could acting like mini-UN : A world wonder called "NATO", "NAFTA", "European Union", "African Union", "South-East Asian Organization", "Delos League", "Hanseatic League", "Holy German Empire", what about a federation of former three, four, five civs for resisting against a bigger civ ? The army should be controlled by the elected leader of the moment of this federation ? Each civ could build their unit a give them automatically to their Federation, you should create two level of units : police units and military units...

    How about of this idea ?

    :goodjob:

    My dream !
     
  16. generalstaff

    generalstaff Steadfast

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    I like the added resources, and more manufactured ones would really improve things IMO. Also, new resources should not eliminate buildings which give commerce/prod/food bonuses with resources

    My resource comments/suggestions \/
    Spoiler :

    -Textiles (req. Cotton, Silk, or Wool)
    -Electrons (req. Copper or Silicon)
    -Synthetic Dye (replacement for Dye, req. Coal or Oil Products)
    -Alcohol (req. Sugar and Wheat or Corn)
    -Wine (req. Grapes or Rice)
    -Soap (req. Olives, Cow, Pig, or Whale)
    -Artificial Nitrates (replacement for Sulfur)
    -Hit Novels (produced by Wonder which requires Paper)
    -Coca
    -Opium
    -Nanobots, Pharmaceuticals, and Wood/Paper are great ideas, but have not ideas on refining them at the moment

    I completely agree. It seems like every turn somebody either has their hand our for begging for techs or wants me to get involved in some war (which either I cannot get my troops to, cause me to make a whole list of enemies I cannot deal with, etc). The negatives from these things seem to last too long as negatives, and the diplomatic boost does not justify giving techs and "this war brings us together" only lasts as long as the war.
     
  17. 0100010

    0100010 Prince

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  18. 0100010

    0100010 Prince

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    Some separate issues:

    From 2.62 (though this issue has been around a while) Shwedagon Paya gives you access all religion civics, which is too powerful IMO when you can hit Atheist to gain +20% science and +20% commerce in all cities in the classical era.

    Horse Archer, and Elephant units are still too powerful relative to other units around at that time.

    The removal of the food bonus on slavery is a step in the right direction, though I would also give it a great person penalty and a +1 unhappy in all cities (if possible)
     
  19. konradcabral

    konradcabral Prince

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    You just described all my anger with Civ IV. I'd really like if we could improve diplomacy and the friendship-anger system. More tradescreen options would be great too. It's the only path that RoM never walked... ;)

    And what if we allow one tile / improvement having more than one resource? Like a mine which provides both gold and copper? Or a farm which provides corn and coffee?
     
  20. Jabarto

    Jabarto Emperor

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    Think very carefully before adding lead. Between sulfur, copper, uranium, oil, and rubber, there are a lot of essential military resources for the modern era as it is. I'd rather not see the problem Civ3 had, whereby you get completely screwed if you don't have a certain resource - *cough*saltpeter*cough* - and the more essential resources you have, the greater the likelihood of that happening.

    In fact, I think it would be a good idea to remove the resource requirements from Mech Infantry and early gunpowser units. One of the great things about vanilla Civ 4 is that you always have a chance of victory even if you were without resources, via artillery and archery/gunpowder units.

    Also if you're still willing to add natural resources, I'd like to see flax in the game. I'm pretty sure The Ancient Mediterranean mod has graphics for it. Another fruit resource would be nice, too, but I don't know of any graphics for those.
     

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