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Version 2.7 discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rise of Mankind' started by zappara, Mar 20, 2009.

  1. Khadras

    Khadras Chieftain

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    Hi! I want to ask you if it is possible to implement in the next version the Fall Further viewing mode: units sight depends of terrain. In the forest an unit can not see much further. On hills an unit see further then on grassland, and an unit on hill can not see beyond mountings arround it. It seems to me more realistic.
     
  2. reconverse

    reconverse Chieftain

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    Is that possible? Like, I didn't knew about that 'Fall Further viewing mode'...

    Sounds prety realistic... But will have to play with it first to give my final judgement. It might not work out with the gameplay and such.
     
  3. Khadras

    Khadras Chieftain

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    Fall Further is the modmod of Fall from Heaven II. And i see there this viewing mode. I don't know if there is implemented in xml file or in the game's dll, but looks cool.
     
  4. reconverse

    reconverse Chieftain

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    Ok!

    I'm curious, i'll check it out :)
     
  5. 0100010

    0100010 Prince

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    Consider revealing copper at Metal Casting instead of bronze working. It kinda makes sense, working copper was learned before making bronze, so the sources of copper ought to be known by then.

    Please eliminate the Ancient Temple resource. What is it really used for? There are few of them, and they don't get revealed until late in the game. Most of the time, they reveal themselves on top of former jungle tiles that have been cleared and improved already by something else and just become an annoyance. They have no strategic purpose. Dropping them could free up a resource spot for one of the various other suggested resources. Or don't replace it with anything in the hopes that it will reduce the occurrences of maps where one of the other, more important resources are missing. (Although with the new changes which increase terrain/feature placement of resources this has situation has occurred less frequently)

    You might also consider dropping obsidian. It's use is very limited. It affects spearman as a production bonus on cost, and is an alternative to copper for Axemen and Light Cavalry. Plus a minor health boost for hospitals. Why not just use stone for the Axemen, Lgt Cavalry effect? (although I question why Lgt Cavalery should get to use it) The hospital bonus is also inconsequential, and would not be noticed if unavailable. Again you could choose to replace it (or not) with other suggested resources instead.

    Turn off the fresh water feature from jungles, it kinda messes things up when they get cleared. Your argument for it was that it "rains all the time" so should be available. Maybe, but jungles can and do experience drought, but when it does rain its also diseased when it collects among those stagnant pools among the trees (which is why jungles are unhealthy) It makes fresh water too abundant as well, and reduces the strategic importance of lakes and rivers. The AI considers this in city site selection, but I'm not sure it knows how to consider fresh water jungles. The default health bonus of fresh water is +2 health right? Jungle unhealthiness provides, 0.4 unhealth. So a freshwater source balances out 5 jungle tiles (which are probably going to get cleared anyway) That's not very equitable.
     
  6. Chiyochan

    Chiyochan King

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    replace it with tea
    advicedog
    give it uber health bonuse's
     
  7. Munger

    Munger Dietary

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    I agree with these points, especially regarding fresh water in jungle as it does lessen the importance of rivers and lakes. I would say that if it comes down to whether jungles are healthy or unhealthy places to live, on balance they must be rated unhealthy.
     
  8. konradcabral

    konradcabral Prince

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    Looks like a good thing.

    I agree. I think sulphur could be anticipated too, for the good of gameplanning.

    Totally agree. Some time ago, I started a thread about this kind of feature. Look:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=311234

    Some time ago I proposed obsidian being obsolete, but now it has surgical aplications, so I changed my mind. Then, I don't agree.


    Agree.

    I'd love to have some tea, but I suggest chicken and soy instead.
     
  9. Ironmann

    Ironmann Chieftain

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    I would say that chickens are more of a "manmade" resource. We mass "produce" and send them to the slaughter. The reason I say this is not because I'm an anti meat production kind of person, but because I never really heard the epic tales of the chickens roaming the plains in the free nature :)
     
  10. reconverse

    reconverse Chieftain

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    Sounds good!

    Chicken or soy also seem nice, but not quite as good as tea.
    Tea was more important in the history so to say. It was a valueable trade resource and also has some cultural influence.

    But maybe there is room for two...

    Just make sure it's balanced. If you remove a ''food'' resource, get one back. Same goes for ''production" resources.


    EDIT:
    Ow about the Temples...
    It gives some flavour, but I never really used it so if they are replaced... fine with me :)
     
  11. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Would it be possible to have a general resource that is randomly picked on what type upon discovery? Like how mines can get the tin event. For instance have a general mineral resources that can become copper, iron, bauxite, salt, silver, gold, stone, marble, obsidian, gems, sulfur, uranium, coal, oil and possible other minerals such as types of gems, tin, platinum, etc.

    You could have a mineral, flora and fauna categories. Then of those each could be for a specific type of terrain. For instance "fauna + coast" will give fish, crab, whales, clams, pearls maybe even shrimp, lobster, specific types of fish like tuna, cod, salmon, etc.

    So in total you would have Coast, Marsh, Rainforest, Forest, Grassland, Plains, Desert and Tundra. So that makes around 8 biomes types and 3 resource categories, which comes out to around 24 total resources you would need. There are a lot more resources than that now. And if each of the types become a bunch of new resources then you could have limitless possibles in resource diversity even if some did the same thing such as fish and clams being virtually identical in its effect.

    EDIT: Also if you needed to have ones revealed later in the game you could possibly add an additional category which would be by time period. So like Ancient, Classical, Medieval, Renaissance, Industrial, Modern and Future. So that's 7 eras times 24 would be 168 possible resources. Ok that's a bit much but i doubt you would need them for all the eras. For instance what new fauna species would you need to discover past classical? Only the minerals might need it. Not to mention not all biomes would need it.

    In short you could could have 24 to start wit and then add more as needed for later era resources. Or even just leave the later era resources as they are.
     
  12. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

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    Ok, fine - I'll test if Gamefont can hold more resources. About year ago I read in some thread that it can hold only 50 resources and RoM has that many currently. So if I try to add one more and if it messes up all the symbols (as I suspect it will) then the only way to get more resources would be that someone provides me new gamefont files that can hold more resources and that they work with RevDCM SDK changes... I know WoC has gamefonts that can hold several hundred resources but they've done SDK changes to achieve that and I'm not switching from RevDCM to WoC format.

    Now, does anyone have suggestions for Medieval era techs? Siege Warfare has been added so far. I've been thinking to add Map Making and Algebra but for those I need some stuff to fill them. It's very hard to think of technologies that aren't already included in some other RoM techs (like Milling = Agricultural Tools).
     
  13. reconverse

    reconverse Chieftain

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    I'll look some up Zappara...

    I've got a nice book at home about the Medieval times :)
     
  14. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    Well, chickens like all livestock were bred for that purpose and I've personally witnessed examples of "wild" chicken flocks. Not that it matters since corn is even more of a man-made resource. There is no such thing as wild corn as corn is totally the product of ancient plant breeding practices and they are now no longer capable of reproducing without human intervention. Yet we include corn because its an important resource. The same goes for wine and olives as well since wine requires fermentation and olives are nearly inedible in their natural state (they are always cured in lye or brine before they are eaten). as well.

    Anyway, if we were to add in a chicken resource, I'd prefer to call it "poultry" or "fowl" to cover more types of bird meat than just chicken.
     
  15. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

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    If you suggest resources, note that I can add only those that have graphics available here on the download db (or in some other mod). And again only if the gamefonts can hold more resources than 50 which I'll probably test next week as that will take at least one evening to edit all the required files.
     
  16. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    I've come up with a few techs which could be added into the medieval or Renaissance era.

    Metaphysics - requires Education; this would also make it much easier for Aaranda to add in Sikhism as its core principle is a non-anthropomorphic god
    Triangular Sails - This is the innovation which allows caravels to sail against the wind
    Alchemy (requires Philosophy and Theology)
    Humoralism - research it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humors ; requires alchemy
    Episcopal Polity - Church hierarchy and politics; requires Theology and Civil Service
    Contract Law
    Metal Smithery or Advanced Iron Working - several advances in strengthening iron and steel came about in the middle ages. These include the processes of tempering, carburization, and case hardening which all led to major advances in weapons manufacturing and armor. Longswords, muskets, and effective plate armor would all have been impossible without these advances
    Martial Arts - several religions and almost every culture seems to heve developed its own forms of martial arts (see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_martial_arts) and these have played a surprisingly important role in history especially in China where princes would fight over martial arts masters and monasteries where it was taught so as to bolster their military strength. Most martial arts came about near to or after the end of the classical era. Also, if we were ever to add in Taoist and Buddhist units basted on martial arts, a specific tech for it would be of great use; requires Aesthetics and Meditation
    Joint-Stock Venture or Company - This was a precursor to the corporation in existence since the 13th century. The most famous example of a joint-stock company would probably be the East India Trading Company. You can research it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_stock_company.
    Mercantilism should be moved into the medieval era.

    Algebra makes possible architecture, prospecting (thus map making), and also makes possible some aspects of medieval and classical warfare. The ability to prospect (which stems from the Pythagorean Theorem) allows for faster building of public improvements as not every square inch of land would need to be measured. a 25% increase in worker production bight be in line, but adding in prospecting as a technology which affords this might also be a good idea. Algebra also makes possible the calculation of trajectories. This would improve the accuracy of siege weapons and allow for the production of early rocket weaponry (read here for possible unit applications http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rockets ). However, this is also called ballistics and that could be its own tech. Really, algebra is a basic form of math which has no direct applications in the real world. However, when it is combined with other techs and practices, it is extremely useful.

    As far as Medieval Warfare, you could add in a skirmisher unit. Skirmishers were used to harass the enemy's main battle force and to prevent harassment to their main battle force by enemy skirmishers before battle. They could cause collateral damage with a chance to retreat. Later skirmishers used muskets to disrupt the tightly packed formations of Napoleonic Warfare. Read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmisher. Medieval warfare was also largely siege warfare. This tech should make some siege weapon available.

    I might post more later. Also, Islam should not be founded so close to the Renaissance era. I'm really not sure where to place it though. I'm going to ask this guy over at the religious forums who seems to know a lot about the religion. It might be necessary to create a new tech just for that purpose.
     
  17. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

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    Metaphysics - more info would be nice

    Triangular sails - This is nice one, perhaps there could be more sea techs besides this? I've been thinking to fill the gap between Trireme and Caravel with couple sea units but I'm not expert on ship classes/types (current RoM wooden ship classes are heavily based on Sid Meier's Pirates game ;), but in other games I've seen such classes as Cog, Holk, Carrack, Clipper, Cutter, Galleass, Pinnace..)

    Alchemy - was included in some early RoM version, it was renamed to Invention to give it wider range of use.

    Advanced Iron Working - the problem with this is that there whole bunch of random events that actually use this "tech" already. f.ex. wootz steel event and half dozen others.

    Martial arts - as a promotion is available in RoM with Meditation tech and one taoist religious building gives it to units...

    In my earlier post I already mentioned Algebra and Siege Warfare. Siege Warfare is set to enable catapult and high walls. Trebuchet is still in construction as it will become available bit later and Construction needs Machinery which should be required tech for Trebuchet.
     
  18. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    Metaphysics - Defined as the principles of reality beyond particular science. It is the study of how we define reality (ontology) and how we define the world (cosmology). Basically, it deals with anything which is totally intangible and only exists as a concept. It starts with some things which are relatively useless (questioning the "obvious"), but is necessary for effective analysis of things such as psychology, political theory, and economics. It also leads to transcendentalism and influences nearly all forms of modern art. Metaphysics was the major topic of discussion for philosophers of the Renaissance and was the source of many of their books and correspondences. This led to a later outpouring of creativity as artists and poets began reading metaphysical literature. Nearly all respectable works of art today owe something to the writings of metaphysicists. Considering this, you might also make Aesthetic a prerequisite for it as well. I don't know if Transcendentalism and Surrealism have been added as techs yet, but both would be outgrowths of Metaphysics. One might see metaphysics as included in Philosophy as it does stem from the book by Aristotle which later came to be titled Metaphysics (meaning the book which comes after physics), but the distinguishment between natural philosophy and metaphysics which came about in the Renaissance (or perhaps later) and its continuing role separate from the natural sciences which eventually causes it to specialize in a definite area of thought necessitates its distinction from those techs of natural philosophy.

    I connect it to education because universities (or what later became universities) were originally meeting places for intellectuals so that they didn't have to do all of their talking through correspondences. When people found out about these meeting places, parents would send their children to listen in on the discussions. When the intellectuals began shooing the children away and not listening to their questions, wealthy parents began paying for their children to be able to listen to and ask questions of the "professors".

    "Martial arts - as a promotion is available in RoM with Meditation tech and one Taoist religious building gives it to units..." Yes, but what about Buddhism and the Dravidian Martial arts? If Taoist monasteries grant martial arts, why don't Buddhist and Hindu monasteries (Though all three religions have buildings separate from monasteries which normally teach martial arts)? The Shaolin Monastery was Buddhist. More than that, it's an underpowered promo to require a great general to grant... Wait, I just checked the promotion tree and it turns out Taoist monasteries are the only way to receive this promotion. That's just ridiculous. Anyway, warrior monks and Taoist educated troops are too obvious as religious units to pass up altogether. Not that I'm saying we need to add those as soon as 2.7, but I think martial arts have had a significant enough role in history separate from meditation (what does German wrestling have to do with meditation?) and Taoism to be considered as a tech. Btw, why does meditation grant this promo if you cant use it without philosophy? Moreover, Both athletics and Aesthetics have far more to do with martial arts than meditation does. If you're going to put it in a tech other than philosophy, why not put it in Military Training? At least that would create the need to research more than religion in order to uncover martial arts.

    Also, you really should think about Episcopal Polity considering its importance in the middle ages (the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Caliphates, Taoist theocratic states, Tibet, the Sanhedrin etc).

    The Galleasses were few in number because of how expensive they were, but they could crush regular galleys by ramming them and they played a major role in the Battle of Lapento. Of all non-oceanic ships, this was by far the most powerful. They could be added with Ship Building. They they were armed with cannons, and also carried more cargo than a galley which was useful for medieval naval warfare which was mainly dependent on marines.

    Have you considered adding in a unit which could board an old ship, and would function as a fighter with a range of only one square. More powerful ships would have a higher resistance to them and other units of this type could intercept them. this might simulate boarding parties.

    Another ship you might consider was the fusta. Used by north afican corsairs, it was similar to a viking longboat in function (fast, low draft, can travel upriver) and had a triangular sail. Its main use was to catch up to larger ships ad send over boarding parties. The small size only allowed for a relatively small contingent of marines, so I would assume they were used in groups.
     
  19. Thorongil

    Thorongil Chieftain

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    I´d vote against moving Mercantilism into the Medieval-era. From my understanding Mercantilism distinguished the early Renaissance from the Medieval in terms of economy. In the Medieval time science in general - especially in Europe, and that´s where Mercantilism emerged - was still strongly dominated and controlled by the Roman Catholic Church. The medieval scholars thus tried to construct an economical system around the basic catholic values (which basically involved a fair exchange of goods; profit was not to be the reason for trading in the first place). Mercantilism, however, could only emerge due to the gradual 'outsourcing' of science out of Monasteries where the economists began to focus on profit. Clearly the time when the church´s power over science faded marked an important turning point in history (-> Medieval ended).

    €: @Zappara: You already have the Carrack in game, it´s the Portugese UU (replacing the Caravel). It´s nice to see that the mod is so big, that not even you have all the features in your mind at all time ;)
     
  20. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    Admittedly, mercantilism emerged late in the middle ages and was not recognized until after the advent of free market theory (as it was the free market theorists who coined the term while criticizing it), but the means for such an economy (infrastructure, manufacturing, guilds, currency) were all present in the high middle ages. Anyway, mercantilism should at least precede free market as it was the mercantilists who free market theorists had to argue against.
     

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